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| Thread: The Fine Art of Balance |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 08, 2008 08:14 PM |
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The Fine Art of Balance
I just came across an interesting article in GameCareerGuide.com that is definitely worth to take a look.
I'll summarize the main points of the analysis and then we'll see how that compares to H5. Note that this is mostly about rpgs but you can find some interesting parts that also apply to the heroes series.
Here's a thoughtful definition of balance!
Quote:
What is Balance?
Balance is the factor that maximizes the player's meaningful choices within the context of the rules of the game.
Got that? Yeah, me neither, so let's break it down a little.
One of the first things it talks about is the dominant strategies and items. You have all seen some glaring imbalances in various games in one form or another. That interferes with the 'fairness' of the game and therefore unbalances the game because you will simply not want to try an alternative that is not as effective. Arcane archers come to mind for some reason.
Then there is the point that fairness does not necessarily bring balance.
One thing that catches my attention here is the following:
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Mathematically balanced games are always fair, but they're almost never balanced.
To mathematically balance a game, you simply assign point values to all the game elements (this is easiest to think of in terms of stats in an RPG, though many other game types use mathematical balance) and make sure that any given game object (a unit, an item) has the correct point value relationship to all the other game objects. The problem with this type of thinking is that it hems you in as a designer and obscures the question of balance with the smug realization that your game is eminently fair.
Oblivion is cited as an example where the enemies are scaled to the player's level and desired difficulty level. That removes part of the player's decision making because you cannot choose whether you are ready for the challenge, the order of facing challenges becomes inconsequential and there is not a high risk - high pay option either. That does not really apply in our case but an interesting thought anyway. Better that neutrals have a specific power rating that you have to assess accurately when to fight them, having their level adjusted would make no sense anyway 
Then come the tips of balancing!
Always inform the player
When a player goes into a dangerous area, he should be notified.
So true, sometimes passing though a portal can be a certain suicide I like maps that use a sign telling you what you may find on the other side, I don't want to play a map multiple times so I have to know it.
Watch your implementation footprint
When you add a new game object, try to understand its relationship to the other game objects. Make sure to think of game objects in the context of where they fall in the game.
I think that goes without saying but not always possible to see that there can occasionally be an imbalance under certain circumstances. At least it's easy to edit a map and most toh maps get updated regularly.
Resource management
Almost all games require resource management. Resource management gives the designer a way to balance almost any game object or mechanic by introducing tradeoffs.
Funny isn't it. Alc noticed that resource costs had been used to balance some factions like fortress very early but obviously that's not a good way to bring balance to the game. Because in a rich map a resource intensive faction will definitely get an edge but may terribly suffer in a poor one. A surplus of resources should not give that much of an advantage.
Standard deviation
Mathematically balancing things isn't all bad. In fact, it can provide the player with a whole new set of interesting choices, so long as you use the math simply to establish a mean to deviate from.
I'm sure you all want that, more options are for the better no matter how you take it. Academy can be effective with so many setups yet inferno is limited.
And one last quote.
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One More Word on Difficulty
As stated earlier, players rarely want a game that's perfectly fair. That said, if your game is patently unfair, it's probably out of balance. The difficulty curve on most games should look like the figure shown.
If the player has the option to play outside those difficulty lines, it's an excellent feature that probably adds to perceived balance. But if the player is ever compelled to play outside those lines, it's a design failure and the game will be seen as unfair and out of balance.
I had initially planned on writing an article about how to balance games. By the time I was done with the first sentence, I realized that it was much more important to write an article about what balance is, or rather, what imbalance is:
Imbalance is the undesired restriction of choice.
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What would you say on the matter? I agree with most things but am curious to see your perspective but also other thoughts for balancing the game. Not like 'NERF SYLVAN, IMBAAA' but general gameplay corrections - things that bug you or you feel are not working well.
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted January 08, 2008 08:42 PM |
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Very informative this...balance and fainess are indeed the two most important things in any game!
But still i prefer Master hunters 
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frostwolf
Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
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posted January 09, 2008 12:39 AM |
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Well the first thing that comes to mind is battles. I would like it if they had even more strategic and tactic possibilities. One of the things I would like for example, is protection for units sitting behind other units. This shouldn't be applied to all units, but a shaman siting behind a cyclops should be protected from an archer's or marksman's fire. It should not, however, be safe from a inquisitor's shot. You get the picture.
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jukeboxhero
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 09, 2008 04:22 AM |
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@ Elvin
Wow! Awesome article man, great find!!
I think it would be interesting if someone broke down the different faction's and relative balance when fighting against other factions as well as balance within the faction.
So, it could be something like this
Internal Balance
1. Unit Balance (balance within the faction..are all units good choices)
2. Skill balance (are there mutliple good skill builds and choices)
3. Creeping strategy balance (more than one way of creeping effectively)
External Balance.
1. How does each faction's army/heroes balance against other factions?
2. How does each factions magic/skills balance...
3. How well does each faction balance at different periods of the game?
and that brings up another interesting point. The more heavily debated a choice is (like between two different upgrades) then typically, that would mean that it's pretty well-balanced
@ Wolf. I agree with that Idea too. I think it would be a cool idea if certain units could be protected (at least partially) from ranged attacks, but then..it might make certain ranged/caster units invincible to other units, especially since access can already be blocked by other walkers.
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Jabarkas
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 09, 2008 10:30 AM |
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Interesting topic and interesting article...
The end conclusion is really: fair != balanced... but the more oscilating it is around fair, the more balanced it will be.
In HoMM V terms, then it might not really be optimal to reduce Fortress advantage on resource rich maps, but rather implement mechanics for the other towns that give them their own advantage when usually Fortress would reign supreme. It could be a mechanic that reduce resources, or allow you to convert resources to whatever boost your town. It could be a mechanic that directly counters rune spammage. It could be a mechanic that rather address a bundled trait, like that abundance of resources is common in large maps, so you could introduce a mechanic that boosted the movement on the adventure map.
In other words, how would you balance an unfair advantage without removing it, nor trying to copy it?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 09, 2008 10:49 AM |
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@Jukebox
Quote:
Wow! Awesome article man, great find!!
You can thank RPGWatch.com for that
Breaking down the game in periods to plan balancing is an idea I had as well. Suppose by week 2, 4, 6 you make sure that the possible power a faction can get is similar to each other both in available skills, buildings and creatures. Different advantages yet strength potential around a certain level for each timeline. For instance you can see now how certain factions can be SO good in earlygame or lategame yet the fight is pretty fair in middlegame. That balance should scale accordingly.
@Jabarkas
It's not about stronghold, I believe there should not be such a gap is resource costs in the first place. To be honest I have not checked overall costs of a fully built town which are probably close to the others but I'd rather you could build dwellings up to tier 6 with little effort for each faction, then the resources would be more for the special buildings and upgrading. In many factions you HAVE to skip dwellings and while it's all about strategy I still say it's no fun. In multiplayer to be fast and adaptable you will rarely see some units in your army - unless the map is long and rich.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted January 09, 2008 11:12 AM |
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I agree totally. Any strategy game should be about how the player plays. Resource management, how they use their troops, and how well they know the enemy (AI or Human, creeps or towns). The one thing against H5 is that luck is a huge factor (and I don't mean just the skill). The skill choices you are given = luck. The creatures guarding things = luck. The artifacts you find = luck. The loose resouces you get = luck. The external creature dwellings available = luck. Spells you get offered in your spell schools = luck.
I wonder if a skill tree and research (for buildings and spells) would be a viable option. Where you can place orders for certain buildings or spells, and it takes x amount of turns to complete. (The building and spells would be seperate so that you can research a spell (that is of appropriate level to your mage guild) and build at the same time). Where you need x number of creatures (or casters) and more will make it quicker, but cut down on how many troops you have available. *shrugs* Probably a bad idea tho.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 09, 2008 11:19 AM |
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Im Age of Wonders you could research spells and skills but it was nowhere near as fun and effective as in heroes. Also in heroes this element of chance makes you think of counters against uncertainly, taking risks or playing safe. As long as the artifacts are 'balanced' and the skill percentages reasonable you can have great planning and you can easily see that better players will win more games.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted January 09, 2008 11:30 AM |
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As much as I lothe WoW (world of warcraft for those 2 people in the world who may not know), I would like to see something like their skill tree for heroes.
You get a level, you get one point to put whereever you like. If you meet the prerequisits of course. (Ie you can't put a point in flaming arrows if you only have basic attack). That way you can take whatever path suits your fancy.
As for building, my prefered thing would be 1 or 2 resources common amoung all the towns + gold only. Balance the cost, and there ya go. This would require some tuning of Runes, but I'm sure we could come up with something to be balanced.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 09, 2008 11:33 AM |
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+QP.. oh wait, you can't receive them anymore 
that sucks, isn't it?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 09, 2008 11:49 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 11:51, 09 Jan 2008.
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I think the fact H5 works with townlevels these days is something that quite severely limits choices. You still have choices, but no radical ones anymore.
I feel if someone wishes to screw up his or her economy by building tier 7 dwelling day 4, if possible through the town structure, he or she should be allowed and able to do that
Quote:
You get a level, you get one point to put whereever you like. If you meet the prerequisits of course. (Ie you can't put a point in flaming arrows if you only have basic attack). That way you can take whatever path suits your fancy.
Hmm, but then heroes wouldn't be defined through the chance of being offered certain skills, right? I mean if Demonlords have the same odds of going for Light Magic than any other faction... I don't know, that seems wrong to me. A bit of chance involved is good. You could argue though there should be even more options on level up so you have more a chance of designing your hero's skills in the way you prefer it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 09, 2008 11:54 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:56, 09 Jan 2008.
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@Misty
I could not imagine heroes without wood/ore and the rare resources - it would really feel another game  Call me sentimental but after so many hours playing heroes with those I'd feel alienated not to see them anymore.
About skills I feel a bit of the same but I'll agree that a system with perk trees where you put points in can be very handy. I have encountered that in a few other games such as Dark Messiah or Dungeon Siege and it could probably work well for heroes.
@Doomforge
Dammit I should have saved it until I become a member again! But as a Hero of Order(TM) I am above that
@Moonlith
Actually that could be tweaked by making rare skills for costly but I prefer the current way as well. Just saying that it could work.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 09, 2008 12:50 PM |
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Of course it could
But I'm just not sure wether or not A) that new system would make the game more fun to play and B) Wether or not it fits heroes of might and magic.
Depends on preference, I guess. I wouldn't know.
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Jabarkas
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 09, 2008 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
@Jabarkas
It's not about stronghold, I believe there should not be such a gap is resource costs in the first place. To be honest I have not checked overall costs of a fully built town which are probably close to the others but I'd rather you could build dwellings up to tier 6 with little effort for each faction, then the resources would be more for the special buildings and upgrading. In many factions you HAVE to skip dwellings and while it's all about strategy I still say it's no fun. In multiplayer to be fast and adaptable you will rarely see some units in your army - unless the map is long and rich.
*Ahem*... I used Fortress since we do have a thread on the front page discussing just that town, so it felt like a suitable example.
My main point was really that you should try to enhance the assymetry instead of reducing it. It is too easy to narrow down on one tiny thing and state that it is flawed, and that this thing must be tweaked... however, if you do this approach into absurdum, then you will in the end just ensure that every town will act alike.
Necropolis has an expensive T7 dwelling... so it is tempting to tune it down so it mirrors the building plans for the other towns, is it not?
Well... how about this instead... let us increase the resource cost of Necropolis T1-T6 dwellings, and instead increase the Dark Energy you gain, plus introduce the limitation that you can't raise units if you don't have the corresponding dwelling.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 09, 2008 06:52 PM |
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Quote:
however, if you do this approach into absurdum, then you will in the end just ensure that every town will act alike.
Not at all.
Quote:
Well... how about this instead... let us increase the resource cost of Necropolis T1-T6 dwellings, and instead increase the Dark Energy you gain, plus introduce the limitation that you can't raise units if you don't have the corresponding dwelling.
Right, make necropolis EVEN more dependent on the map's available neutrals and make it worthless in a poor map. And then limit what you can raise because you cannot build the corresponding dwellings. How about we disable some dwellings to make it even more diverse? 
Sorry but that cannot work, there are still some basic rules that must apply for a game to achieve a semblance of balance.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted January 09, 2008 09:37 PM |
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I think Homm 5 balancing could be done with 2 simple change.
First, heavy magic factions (dungeon, academy) are slightly more powerful on smaller/medium maps, because they can get their mage guild and magic skills quite early. I think if the higher (4 and 5) mage guild level would require a higher town level (like lvl 12 for MG lvl 4 and 15 for MG lvl 5, for instance), their small advantage could be nullified, and might factions could close up.
The second is the resource requirement balancing, just the most annoying (sacrificial pit, dragon graveyard, some towns' wood/ore problems).
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Adon
Known Hero
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posted January 10, 2008 12:40 AM |
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To me, with enough play testing or time after a patch, you could analyze balance simply by seeing if any factions or strategies are overused compared to others. We're naturally inclined to want to win, and if a particular strategy is truly overpowered it will be much more frequently used than those that are relatively equal to eachother. Once identified, fix the imbalancing aspect or create a way to counter it where needed (with testing to make sure you don't create more imbalances in the process...)
Thus far I think Heroes 5, with TOTE, is very balanced for a game with so many choices of creatures and factions and strategies.
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Jabarkas
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 10, 2008 10:02 AM |
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Edited by Jabarkas at 10:12, 10 Jan 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
however, if you do this approach into absurdum, then you will in the end just ensure that every town will act alike.
Not at all.
Yes, it will...
If you can just see rock and scissors, then you will keep buffing scissors and keep nerfing rock, until there is no difference between them. This is what happens when you refuse to add something new and different, like paper.
Most threads and posts here is about that you need to buff or nerf a stat. It is very seldom someone dares to introduce something new. This is the mentality that I semi-challenged.
Quote:
Quote:
Well... how about this instead... let us increase the resource cost of Necropolis T1-T6 dwellings, and instead increase the Dark Energy you gain, plus introduce the limitation that you can't raise units if you don't have the corresponding dwelling.
Right, make necropolis EVEN more dependent on the map's available neutrals and make it worthless in a poor map. And then limit what you can raise because you cannot build the corresponding dwellings. How about we disable some dwellings to make it even more diverse?
Sorry but that cannot work, there are still some basic rules that must apply for a game to achieve a semblance of balance.
It can work, it just become a wee bit more complex, since introducing something new generally opens up the road for even more problems that you must solve in order to achieve balance. This will escalate to the point that at any given point in the game some town will most certainly have a distinct advantage vs. all other towns, but it will in the next breath turn the other way around so it has a disadvantage, for then turn again... and on it goes... so in the end you can still not for your life manage to say which side will stand as winner, until that last round has been played.
Fair is the straight line, balance is the means to oscillate around it.
ADDENDUM:
There is also another analysis that can take place here, and that is how big advantage/disadvantages you are willing to allow? How high peaks and low bottoms are you allowing in that ever oscillating sinus wave?
This analysis is where you allow the small tweaks up'n'down.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2008 10:35 AM |
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That makes little sense in practical play and I have played enough to know that it would mess with balance in most of the cases. In the long run it could be balanced but in H5 there is no long run, there is crazy rushing once you find an enemy weakness or a momentary advantage.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 10, 2008 12:22 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:23, 10 Jan 2008.
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How exactly was rushing halted in the previous games?
And speaking of the huge power of magic in early game, I'd say, make those mage guilds more costly. 2 of each recource for mage guild level 1. 10 of each for level 5 guild.
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