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| Thread: The Fine Art of Balance |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Jabarkas
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 10, 2008 01:24 PM |
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Just theorycrafting here. Never claimed that my solutions would be practical... just weird. 
Ok, to be a bit serious. If we accept the stance that the balance is an ever oscillating sinus wave around some fair-state, then you've the vision on what you want to achieve with a change. After this, you pin down the problems and brainstorm forth several solutions. A solution that is easy to implement and which both solves the problem and opens up for more choices, is probably the best solution to take.
To step down from the high clouds, then we can take a quite real example with Stronghold's problem with Frenzy and Puppet Master.
Ok, are those spells too strong to begin with? If we use the sinus-wave analogy, are then the peaks too high? Should we perhaps tune down Frenzy and Puppet Mastery? Frenzy could be moved to T5, while Puppet Mastery could get a far higher mana cost.
Is it the opposite state? Is it just the fact that Stronghold is so purely might oriented, that Frenzy and Puppet Mastery cuts too deep when it both blunt your attack force and turn it on yourself? Should Barbarian heroes get a damaging warcry so that they don't need to rely on their units to the same degree? Perhaps the level requirement on Warcries should be removed?
...or is it simply put just those two spells that counter Stronghold too much? So perhaps Stronghold should get their own card to play against towns that rely on Dark Magic? Perhaps the Might over Magic skill should also allow you to reduce the mana pool of the enemy hero?
In short we have three cases here with either spells that are too powerful, units that are too weak or a counter that is to strong.
If more than one town has problem with Frenzy and Puppet Mastery, then it might be the spells. If Stronghold has an overall problem with anti-might spells, such as Confusion, Blindness and Torpor, then Stronghold might need some way to remove those or reduce their effect (like giving Shamans cleanse).
The last possibility is an acceptance that Dark Magic is there to counter Stronghold and instead of trying to reduce that effect, give Stronghold some kind of edge of their own.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2008 04:09 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:21, 10 Jan 2008.
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@Moonlith
That was back in 1.0 to 1.2 LOL! And afterwards there was more diversity in gameplay and more options, I can't believe how all your proposals cause restrictions  Besides going for mage guild will eventually mean you have less dwellings and with the recent changes to utopias, pyramids and mage vaults their rushing potential has been significantly lowered. It's pretty fine as it is, a triple flaming ballista is just as good and even more reliable. Let's not make it heroes of might again..
@Jabarkas
Ah but I have played some games with necropolis and stronghold and to be honest the barbarians get a slight advantage even  But that is assuming you take flaming arrows(for a medium game, otherwise excruciating strike or retribution with tactics) and shatter dark.
The barbarians will either hit from afar with the ballista while they charge(in a way to prevent frenzied stacks from hitting their other key units or they will ensure to strike hard so even one unit blinded/frenzied/puppeted will not be as missed. The necromancer will also use summoning but you can take it if careful.
One more interesting thing is the possibility of swift mind and bloodfire combo so you cast one extra rage boosting warcry. Even if hit you'll receive much less damage and let's be honest, you won't use executioners with cleave or marauders that have no melee penalty and can be used against you. As for puppet between the shatter perks and might over magic the cursed unit will act once in a blue moon. Shout skill with mighty rage and word of chief is also a very strong card.
I have seen those in work and it is a good match, the orcs will not be found wanting unless rushed before you can get a good ballista.
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If there is something that I have noticed in H5 is that except for cases of obvious imbalance(which is usually corrected later..) there are always good counters but they are TOO specific. It's not as before where you could just play your game and have a good match regardless, you must have great preparation against specific factions.
One example is dungeon's multi magic tactics against stronghold where you may not get dark the most important ingredient or even the right spells  Should it really come to that to stand a chance..?
I hope that the trend will not continue in H6.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 10, 2008 04:20 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 16:20, 10 Jan 2008.
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Then how DO you counter or prevent swift magic rushing?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2008 04:28 PM |
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I play large maps where the battle can take place at week 3 the earliest Seriously you should know better than consider earlier fights, small maps are not balanced. From the factions from the ones I tried, sylvan, orcs and even demonlords can stand their ground. Usually that involves tactics and charging with mass haste, excruciating strike or a good ballista but it really depends. You just rush like crazy and make sure you have at least equal or better level than your opponent and the arties, skills and other parameters will decide your game.
The only things that I would really fear is a phoenix(that can be tackled with dark) or an armageddon with phoenix cape but that's rare. Oh and mateor with slippers Spell availability is not always on the caster's side nor are the artifacts.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2008 04:40 PM |
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True balance is an impossibility. The only balanced game is one where everything is homogenous and equal. The only game I can think of that fits atm is Discworld's Thud, but this is played and then the positions are reversed, so it does not really count. Ubival isn't going to make a game where all the factions are identical, it's not fun. The minute you vary something in one, even if you change the others in some way, the result will be one faction not balanced in certain situations, another in others etc.. Because Heroes is such a complicated game, these get ironed out a little, because we cannot use everything that is available to us to the maximum efficiency - we are only human. Overall, the factions may be equal, but at lower levels there has to be differences. And because Heroes is so complicated, the result is likely to be a lack of balance overall too. The only solution is loads and loads of testing and fiddling until over a large selection of gamers, maps etc., the factions appear to be equal.
Well that made little sense and was half off-topic , but hey
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2008 05:10 PM |
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That was never my intent, I am talking about what can be achieved within reasonable margins and ideas that could ease that effort.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2008 05:28 PM |
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I know, I was just being obtuse
You're right on the specificity. It is important to get just the right amount. For me, HoMM3 had too little, whereas HoMM5 is closer to the optimum level (HoF that is, I don't have TotE yet). Having to modify your strategy to meet the specific pros of the enemy faction is generally enjoyable, although you have a point in saying that sometimes this can go too far, because of the existance of randomness in the game. The answer is to make the spell selection less random - let the player pick one spell out of a selection of two for each spell slot, or something?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 10, 2008 05:40 PM |
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Or maybe be able to learn 2 of 3 spells from your faction's favoured schools. Or even the guild refreshing after 2-3 weeks.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 11, 2008 10:00 AM |
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What about an ability under Enlightment that makes the selected town's mage guild expand with a spell every now and then?
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Jabarkas
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 11, 2008 10:09 AM |
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Hmm... interesting twist.
This is almost a question along the line "if you could choose what spells/skills you would get, what would you pick?". I wager there is some thread with that.
This sort of highlight why some spells (or skills) are just a tiny bit more powerful than the rest. I wonder how many would take Blade Barrier ahead of Phantom Forces?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 11, 2008 10:26 AM |
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I don't mind if I get blade barrier both spells are very good - just different usage. Imagine blocking a barbarian's cyclopses with that.
As for the ability through enlightenmnet it would seem weird that a perk can affect your mage guild and I'd rather it was not specifically tied to those that get enlightenment easily.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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trickstermagic
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 11, 2008 12:19 PM |
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I agree with the Rock-Paper-Scissors analogy. What is so wonderful in Heroes is that there is always a way - with a good tactic a skilled player can beat an inferior tactician easily. It is a great wide world out there full of possibilities...if you know how to use your strengths correctly. I feel that Heroes 5 is a well balanced game, especially TotE, with its new skill system (I like the fact they introduced Memory Mentors and made it easier to achieve the ultimate skill). It is more complicated than for example H3 (I reccomend trying Heroes 3.5 In the Wake of Gods for those who like experimenting - I thoroughly enjoyed it), but IMO this only adds to the game. I admit small things could be done to improve the game even more, but this is a job for the Modding Community - so everyone can find sth to fit his/her needs / style of playing.
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