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| Thread: Is free will an Illusion? - Determinism |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Azagal
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posted January 19, 2008 07:36 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 09:47, 19 Jan 2008.
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Is free will an Illusion? - Determinism
Well in my Ethik class (basically the same as Phliosophy) we recently talked about Determinism. I personally found it very interesting and I it actually made me rethink my current way of seeing life well maybe that’s a bit exaggerated but it really made me think .
So I’ll try to explain Determinism to you guys as good as I can and then I would like to hear your opinion about it.
I’ll start with the core thoughts of Determinism:
A human individual is not free in his actions.
Human action is predetermined.
Thus a human is not responsible for his actions.
NOTE : I will be talking about emotions and personality. I see emotions and personality as result of your environment, the experiences you have made during your life and the way you have been raised. Just to clarify this and not explain the origins of emotions/ the cause of our desires etc. in my text.
Explanations:
Via reasoning (from Manfred Danner):
1. The wanting of something is concentrated on a subjective value
2. Our emotions decide what a subjective value is
3. Therefore is what we want decided through our emotions.
4. Our emotions are out of our personal influence
5. Because what we want/desire is decided by our emotions and our emotions are not influenceable through us, our decisions to want/desire something are determined. (Conclusion from 3 and 4)
6. Of course we can justify our decisions via our reason. But it is our subjective evaluation of the rational explanation which makes the justification the “Reason” (for our action) and gives the justified action it value.
(Ok I hope I didn’t lose you here… This may be hard to understand and my English unfortunately doesn’t make it much easier… but I hope you understood it so far.)
Now to the conclusion drawn from this:
Our emotions determine what we want. Because we identify ourselves with our emotions and our “Wanting”/desires (sorry I don’t know the noun of want) we have the feeling that we are free and we determine our own actions. But as it’s our emotions that determine our “wanting”/desires we do decide our self but not freely.
So determinism states that our actions are predetermined, hence not influenceable through us, thus free will is an Illusion
Scientific explanation:
A course of action is already decided in the brain before the human individual has made the conscious decision to take that action.
Our reason only functions as an adviser, which in the end it doesn’t decide our action.
(If you don’t take science as a valid proof then please ignore this statement instead of lecturing me how flawed and stupid science is…)
Ok so this was the explaining part I hope you managed to understand it. After thinking this trough I came to think that determinism is not as stupid as I first thought. Anyways now to the things I think are wrong with it.
Criticism
Determinism takes all responsibility from a human individual. All crimes would simply be caused by the circumstances that shaped the individuals personality and the criminal himself would simply be a “victim” of his environment. Apart from crimes it simply is ridiculous to say that a human is not responsible for his actions.
I do not believe that our rational thought and reason have nothing to say in a evaluation process. There is such a thing as restraining oneself in which our reason prevents us from taking an action we want to do even though we know better.
Personal evaluation:
After thinking this through I’ve come to the conclusion that free will is not an illusion, as I believe that our reasoning and rational thought are stronger than our desires (that doesn’t go for all humans but well at least for the ones I consider sophisticated).
But our actions are most certainly exactly predicable for anyone that knows us that inside out. So basically you can always tell how somebody is going to react if you know enough about them. Somehow I’ve found that quite plausible but nevertheless kind of scary…
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Mytical
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posted January 19, 2008 09:54 AM |
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There are many thoughts on the subject but it breaks down to 3 main 'camps' as it were.
Free Will, Predestination, or what I like to call Hodgepodge (a mixing of both).
Free Will is (basically, but not technically) the concept that nothing is preordained and that our choices shape the future. In this concept if you could travel to the future, it would be one of MANY possible futures depending on choices people make. While the past would be alterable, this could create a time paradox in which the future you come from no longer exsists. Thus destroying the time stream and everything in it.
For instance if you choose to go right, and get hit by a bus it was because of that choice that you died, and it was not fated in any way shape or form.
Predestination basically (again maybe not technically) states that everything is already determined. The illusion of free will remains, but everything you decide is a moot point because the future is set. In this concept time travel either way would be impossible except for the normal way (ie living the life), as both past and present are set and unmutable. Most who believe this also believe in some 'greater' power that has already determined what is to be, and nothing can be done to avoid it. The truck in the above case would have been 'destined' to be there, and you were 'destined' to turn right. Your fate is unavoidable, as any decision you make is the one that you are 'destined' to make.
Hodgepodge means that some things are destined, and others are the result of free will. This one is my personal favorite. I think free will exsists, but somethings are just meant to happen. Call it luck or fortune. A person can choose to kill somebody, and alter that persons destiny, or choose to turn right when they should have turned left. In this case the truck may have been destined to be where it is, but you could have chose to turn left and avoid it. You didn't however.
I've had too many 'weird coincidences' for them to be actually coincidences. Had flat tires and an accident happen where I would have been had I not had a flat tire. Got a bad feeling about something, and not done it where if I had the results could have been horrific. Things like that. So I believe there is destiny, but you are given warning signs to avoid it. It's just up to you wheather to listen to them, or ignore them.
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Message received.
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Elvin
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posted January 19, 2008 11:18 AM |
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No I don't believe in determinism. You may be surprised that I am more of a feeler than a thinker but according to a situation I will follow my reason or my guts. While most things are clear what I have to do there are still many actions where every last bit of influence could turn me around. Should I do this or let it go? Act right now or wait? What happened to myself previously that could affect my mood? What am I thinking right now or what thoughts will pop up at the crucial moment?
These moments even I cannot tell what I will decide in the end much less someone that knows me inside out. If I had to choose again I might have chosen something else. One thing is for sure I always pay attention to the consequences before acting unless the gamble is really worth it and my chances are good. But also what I lose if I don't.. There are times when you have to at least try even when everything else tells you it will fail.
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Seraphim
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posted January 19, 2008 12:05 PM |
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Well,free will is an illusion and irreal.Every single thing is controlled by something in our society.
Non of us here have free will.The reasons are obiuous but I have something to add,the human is controlled by the brain.Can you control your heart beats or your emotions? Imagine our real behaviour is controlled by the brain.So I can not see freedom and even our thoughts are controlled from our brain as any thing else in our body.
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Elvin
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posted January 19, 2008 12:35 PM |
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Emotions and passion can be tempered. Also influences from elsewhere can be overcome, it's up to you. I have never been the mainstream guy following the trends or caring about most things other people do.
If you cannot control your impulsiveness, your thoughts or the way they affect you that's a sign of weakness. Yes you can bet I value self-control. Some subconscious influences will still pass to you but you can eventually identify them and question the things you see and hear.
Then there is the case of substance addiction. As long as you are addicted to something you will never truly be free.
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baklava
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posted January 19, 2008 01:21 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 13:21, 19 Jan 2008.
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Choose. A or B.
A
Yes. Free will is an illusion. We are all zombies racing to our graves. Everything you see, sense or feel is actually nothing because you don't control anything about yourself; you are an absolute zero, a completely empty shell and anything you do was determined for you to do. You don't have any choice about anything.
B
Um, no... I've been on this Earth long enough to have made some choices and felt too much to think that I'm a robot. I'm a living being, infinitely smaller than macro-cosmos, but still infinitely larger than micro-cosmos. Maybe everything we do is set in stone, but UNTIL we do it, it's not. Our choices determine the future among other things, and though there are other aspects to it, I refuse to deny that my nature and my common sense have something to do with it. Other people may try to control us, but we survive and can only battle against that thanks to that same sense of free will that is inside us. Whoever wants to believe he has no free will is free to do so, but as for me, no thanks. My free will, beliefs and common sense are among the few things that no one can take away from me.
I pick B 
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Seraphim
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posted January 19, 2008 01:27 PM |
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Quote:
Emotions and passion can be tempered. Also influences from elsewhere can be overcome, it's up to you. I have never been the mainstream guy following the trends or caring about most things other people do.
If you cannot control your impulsiveness, your thoughts or the way they affect you that's a sign of weakness. Yes you can bet I value self-control. Some subconscious influences will still pass to you but you can eventually identify them and question the things you see and hear.
Then there is the case of substance addiction. As long as you are addicted to something you will never truly be free.
Well,I am not addicted to something.
And another thing,if you have seen like some ppl getting killed in front of your eyes and you see that,could you forget that thought or something?
Anyway,I am free to think that things are not determined but happen in cycle just as life-death ratio.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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Elvin
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posted January 19, 2008 01:38 PM |
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I don't forget things but can temper the way they affect me as aforementioned. Harder at first but you can get learn to live with them but there may even be things you can never recover from. Still does that mean you'll never have free will again?
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Seraphim
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posted January 19, 2008 01:49 PM |
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Quote:
I don't forget things but can temper the way they affect me as aforementioned. Harder at first but you can get learn to live with them but there may even be things you can never recover from. Still does that mean you'll never have free will again?
I did not mind that can affect the free will but you can not control your brain to erase those images.I just want to say that the brain is not equal to us but Brain>us.
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Moonlith
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posted January 19, 2008 02:20 PM |
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I don't quite see the point in this discussion, at all.
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Elvin
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posted January 19, 2008 02:48 PM |
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Me neither 
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mvassilev
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posted January 19, 2008 03:08 PM |
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Quote:
our reasoning and rational thought are stronger than our desires
Our reasoning and rational thought and our desires are very similar in form. They are all chemical reactions in the brain. They appear different, though.
Quote:
1. The wanting of something is concentrated on a subjective value
Agreed.
Quote:
2. Our emotions decide what a subjective value is
Hmm... Not necessarily. Our emotions are just one part of it. Part of it is how we're raised, and part of it is due to reason.
Quote:
4. Our emotions are out of our personal influence
Most of the time. Not always. And our emotions coexist with reason. (And our "personal influence" is no more than other chemical reactions. But the distinction is nevertheless important.)
Quote:
All crimes would simply be caused by the circumstances that shaped the individuals personality and the criminal himself would simply be a “victim” of his environment.
Now this is the part of determinism I strongly disagree with. Just because it was predetermined that he would act that way doesn't mean that he shouldn't be punished for it. The future may be predetermined, but so are our actions, all of them. Every action is predetermined, but we still have to act like we have free will. That's very important. Because if we "choose" to give up and "let fate take its course", such an action would be predetermined, and we would become bums or something, and fail at life. But if we "choose" to carry on regardless of whether we have free will or not, and act like we have free will (while keeping in our minds that we really don't), it would be just like having free will.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Azagal
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posted January 19, 2008 03:12 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 17:42, 19 Jan 2008.
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@Moonlith
Well I didn't read the replies yet but incase this is refering to my topic I just wanted to know what you guys thougth about this.
Allright now I've read all of it. Sorry for misunderstanding that.
@Seraphim
No offence my friend but I didn't really see how anything but your first post was really related to the subject
@Elvin
Now what you said I came to find interesting. That is exactly the point. Determinism states that if one was to be put in exactly the same situation one would always react in the same way. Hmm well you say you wouldn't. Now let's say you were in an situation you would "save" this situation. Now you would take an action. Let's say you would "reload" your "save". Let's say you wouldn't remember to have been in the situation (I think you get the idea). You really think that you would react any diffrent from what you did before? So basically your chain of reasoning is not always the same because you think you would maybe notice things that might alter your decision. But what would have made you miss those things in the first place [let's leave coincedental factors out. Of course they would change things but this is suposed to be an "ideal" example]
@Baklava
I think you might have taken this the wrong way. Determinism doesn't state that we are "empty shells" or that we are "zombies" or "robots". If it does state that I agree with you it's wrong. All I'm saying is that it really makes everything you do extremly predicable. Look I consider myself a free, very strong individual with an ironwill and absolute control of myself. But this doesn't change the fact that this would make my action predicable. Or does it?
@mvassilev (dude I simply can't spell your name right I allways have to look it up)
with Quote:
our reasoning and rational thought are stronger than our desires
I ment to say that this is the case when you restrain yourself. In this particular moment you convince yourself via reason to act against your desires.
About your comment to "2." that's what I wrote the "NOTE:" for. To say that the way we were raised does play a role and that our emotions are influenced by that.
Interesting. Why do you say that we are in control of our emotions? When you are sad you can not "turn it off" can you? You can surpress it yes but that is not being in control of your emotions that is only restraining them. With control I ment being able to change them at will and this is not possible... atleast I have heared from it nor do I belive it.
And well I only agree partialy with your last comment. I belive in free will (eventhough I belive that actions may be predetermined) but not in the fact that one can use the predetermination of actions as an excuse for crimes. Crimes are actions that are not predetermined because they are planed. And circumstances do not make you plan crimes.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Elvin
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posted January 19, 2008 06:36 PM |
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In a situation there are more than one 'correct solutions'. Suppose I like the X one more, I may realize that:
Following X earlier might have been responsible for something I did not like the last time.
Although it goes out of my reasoning I owe to someone to try Y.
Following Y may have an additional benefit this time such as proving someone wrong.
Y may have a moral significance even if X is the reasonable thing to do.
Or it could just be that I go with the flow, seeing some things pushing me that way.
An example. Normally I will wait until I can leave with my friends even if I can leave earlier for some reason.
What may influence my actions is that:
They have other company for now so it's ok to go - Though I still could wait.
Hmm actually I'd like to have company on the way - Nevermind, cya.
I am too tired to wait for more - Just a little more..
There's something I want to discuss - Next time, later!
I have elsewhere to be, sorry - If you would hurry up please
He/she needs some comfort, I have to wait - Actually my decision here would not change.
If these separate categories did not exist it would be about how much I feel I can wait but can still be subject to whim.
Another typical case is waiting in the station for the buses: Get in now and walk a bit or wait until the one I want comes and take me straight home? Little time to think about it, no definite answer.
Or when playing backgammon. While there is always the 'right' way to play you may instead choose another combination that can help you in your next roll but it will require some luck. Risk and high reward or play safe and best wins?
A jack@ss is asking for it, will you let him know that he makes a fool of himself/tell him off or will you not bother to take place at all? Again no definite answer.
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mvassilev
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posted January 19, 2008 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
Interesting. Why do you say that we are in control of our emotions? When you are sad you can not "turn it off" can you? You can surpress it yes but that is not being in control of your emotions that is only restraining them. With control I ment being able to change them at will and this is not possible... atleast I have heared from it nor do I belive it.
That's not what I meant. I meant that with reason, we can change our values/ethics/morals, and our emotions will be affected/activated differently.
Quote:
And well I only agree partialy with your last comment. I belive in free will (eventhough I belive that actions may be predetermined) but not in the fact that one can use the predetermination of actions as an excuse for crimes. Crimes are actions that are not predetermined because they are planed. And circumstances do not make you plan crimes.
I think that crimes are predetermined in the sense that all actions are predetermined; if we're destined to commit a crime, then we will. Every step of the way is predetermined as well. But it's important to remember that we have the illusion of a choice. The interesting thing about this illusion of choice is that it actually works as if we had free will. Our choice is predetermined, but we still make the choice. So people should be punished for the harmful choices they make, even though in the big picture it's predetermined.
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baklava
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posted January 19, 2008 10:03 PM |
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Quote:
@Baklava
I think you might have taken this the wrong way. Determinism doesn't state that we are "empty shells" or that we are "zombies" or "robots". If it does state that I agree with you it's wrong. All I'm saying is that it really makes everything you do extremly predicable. Look I consider myself a free, very strong individual with an ironwill and absolute control of myself. But this doesn't change the fact that this would make my action predicable. Or does it?
Ah, alright, I misunderstood.
On the other hand, I think we all know how unpredictable we humans are So it's kind of a hollow theory IMHO
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Ecoris
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posted January 20, 2008 08:27 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 20:28, 20 Jan 2008.
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Quote:
Choose. A or B.
A
Yes. Free will is an illusion. We are all zombies racing to our graves. Everything you see, sense or feel is actually nothing because you don't control anything about yourself; you are an absolute zero, a completely empty shell and anything you do was determined for you to do. You don't have any choice about anything.
B
Um, no... I've been on this Earth long enough to have made some choices and felt too much to think that I'm a robot. I'm a living being, infinitely smaller than macro-cosmos, but still infinitely larger than micro-cosmos. Maybe everything we do is set in stone, but UNTIL we do it, it's not. Our choices determine the future among other things, and though there are other aspects to it, I refuse to deny that my nature and my common sense have something to do with it. Other people may try to control us, but we survive and can only battle against that thanks to that same sense of free will that is inside us. Whoever wants to believe he has no free will is free to do so, but as for me, no thanks. My free will, beliefs and common sense are among the few things that no one can take away from me.
Quote:
Ah, alright, I misunderstood.
I actually think you had a fine point. If you believe everything is predetermined we humans are nothing but mindless observers.
What matters is not whether A is true or B is true. What matters is what you (choose) to believe. I'll certainly pick B too.
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TheDeath
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posted January 20, 2008 08:37 PM |
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Quote:
Can you control your heart beats or your emotions?
Hmm, yes you can control your heart beats if you practice meditation
as for emotions, I think that's a little bit more complicated, but if you were referring to instincts, yes you can control those too. And in fact, you can also kinda "control" the brain, by getting rid of headaches or forcing it to forget something (while I have never actually got rid COMPLETELY of a bad memory, you can at least diminish it's remembrance factor, so to speak, and I am positive that with more training, I will be able to do it completely).
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Gnoll_Mage
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posted January 20, 2008 09:59 PM |
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For me, there are two ways to look at free will.
1. No free will. Everything in the Universe is made of atoms and smaller bits and pieces. On a maco-scale, these react in a reasonably `predictable` way i.e. deterministically, but down at a very small level, in fact everything is running on chance. Certain things have a higher chance of happening than others, and this results in apparent order at a high level. But there is nowhere in this system for free will to come in. What we do is derived from our circumstances. What we call free will is not really free at all - for any choice, there will be a selection of possible things that can be done, each with a probability of occuring. However, since there is no `true` free will, one could argue that the definition of free will is "where it seems like we have a choice to make". Yes, the result is not truly up to us in any way, but again, since it never can be, we can use the phrase "is up to us" to talk about free will. This allows comparison between e.g. `having` to breathe and `choosing` to buy chocolate, or whatever. Ultimately though, there is no difference except that for the latter, it felt like we had a choice to make.
No, we could not use this idea to work out what was going to happen, because this would be paradoxical. Even if there were no randomness at all, we could not `run` a simulation of the Universe (even if we had enough physical space to do it in) any faster than the real Universe `runs` itself.
2. Free will. Scientists are beginning to think about quantum activity in the brain. It is possible, if I remember correctly, that the brain may be able to change the probabilities of certain things, thereby allowing us to make `choices` about the world. Personally, I would like this to be true, but I doubt it (although it would give a scientific spin on ideas like the soul and sentience).
We can apply similar rules to 1. when it comes to crimes. Yes, we never truly freely chose to commit that crime, but we can still compare within our frame of "no imagined free will" vs. "imagined free will". This is not a binary scale by any means though, but it is impossible for us to `work out` who is more at fault for something. We can only approximate and set rough guidelines.
Anyone who believes in free will either believes in 2., that we can modify the probabilities of the Universe in some way, or believes that modern science's view of the Universe, despite having much evidence fitting with it, is wrong.
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Azagal
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posted January 21, 2008 02:15 PM |
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@Ecoris
Quote:
I actually think you had a fine point. If you believe everything is predetermined we humans are nothing but mindless observers.
Sorry but that is not true. Just because an action is predetermined it doesn't mean we are nothing but mindless observers. You still interact with your enviroment which determines your actions. Determinism is not something like "Destiney".
Quote:
What matters is not whether A is true or B is true. What matters is what you (choose) to believe. I'll certainly pick B too.
Now that's correct. But it's not solely beliveing as you can change things.
@TheDeath
I don't belive that you can control (really be in charge of) your emotions. When something makes you happy/sad you can not help it, or can you? You may supress a feeling but it will be there nevertheless.
You may be right about instincts though... but this must take a lot of time to lose those as they are basically programmed into you.
@Gnollmage
Quote:
However, since there is no `true` free will, one could argue that the definition of free will is "where it seems like we have a choice to make".
But we are alive. We are not atoms or electrons that can be explained by the laws of physik. We are an organism who's reactions may be predicable but to deny that we have any free will is somehow odd to me. There is no rule for human existance is there? For example if I but all human in situation A they will allways do B. This depends on the individual and a individual shapes his personality (together with his environment,etc.) thus he has influence on his personality/emotions and therefor has free will.
When I say influence I don't say control. It simply means you can teach your body how you want to react to signals. And those actions will be predetermined. But predetermined action don't mean that we are empty shells.
Why does one have to deny mondern science in order to say that free will exists? I haven't heared that free will has been disproven yet.
Besides crimes can not be predetermined. As I already said there are no circumstances that inevitebly force an individual to commit a crime. Because crimes have to be planed (I'm not talking about crimes that happend on a impuls here). Free will exists. Of course it does.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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