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angelito
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posted July 28, 2010 09:05 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 09:16, 28 Jul 2010.
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No one (at least not me) blames people (be it americans, asians or europeans) for becoming rich!
The question here is:
1. well earned?
2. proportionality principle!
to 1.)
There was a list published the last days, where you can see the top businessmen with the most income in the last 10 years.
Top guy is Larry ELLISON, CEO of Oracle. he earned around 1.8 billion (!!!) dollars in the last 10 years.
You know who is placed on 11th place on that list with an income of around 437 million dollars? Richard FULD, the former CEO of Lehman brothers. We all know how well Lehman Brothers did the last years and what effect it had to the world economy! well earned?
to 2.)
Tiger Woods rounds around in a park and hits a small ball with a bat. Several times a day, many times a year. Enough to earn 100 million dollars?
On the other hand, there is a nurse. Taking care of many injured people every night. Talking, nursing, helping, consoling, listening. Every night is pure stress. She has to work at night because that way she earns more money. Of course her husband is alone all nights at home. Of course her kids only see her short time in the morning (if at all) when she comes home from work to give them a hug and bring them to the school bus. Of course many of these family situations will lead to divorce. Maybe she has luck and her husband can cope with that better than others. proportionality principle!
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JollyJoker
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posted July 28, 2010 09:24 AM |
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I don't want to spoil your post, angelito, but if nursing was a competitive job - like playing golf - I suppose that there were nurses earning millions as well.
Saying, if nursing meant, going from one bed to the other, picking a club and whacking the patient onto the exact right spot, so that they are healthy again, you can bet that those would earn one hell of a fortune. Even though - near misses or outright failures might prove awkward.
As it is, nursing is just an endlessly repetitive, ardous job that offers only scant and unspectacular victories and many demoralizing losses, many of them not even visible immediately.
Definitely not the stuff people want to be bothered with, so it doesn't sell. And since it doesn't sell, it's paid badly.
Which is capitalism for you - market and all.
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Binabik
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posted July 28, 2010 09:50 AM |
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Um, seems to be a bit of difference between nursing in Germany and nursing in the US. In the US nursing is one of the highest paid professions there is. I have to insert a qualification here and point out that there are a lot of levels and types of nurses. They all pay well, but some pay very well. I don't know about the lower level nurses, but just for comparison mid level and higher level nurses should make more than an engineer or programmer. One important consideration here is that I'm pretty sure most nurses are paid hourly. That means if they are working long hours, their total pay increases a LOT. I think if an hourly nurse worked the same kind of hours as a lower level doctor, the nurse would make more money. A nurse should easily be able to become a millionaire if they are moderately good at saving.
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Binabik
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posted July 28, 2010 10:04 AM |
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I'm going to add to that last statement I made. It's not very hard to become a millionaire in the US. For example any professional with a college degree (a real degree than can get you a real job, not a degree like art history) should be able to becomes a millionaire fairly easily.
Heck, I think you could probably do it just mowing lawns Buy a lawn mower and start mowing lawns. Then buy a bigger lawn mower and mow bigger lawns. Keep doing it, save your money, and presto, you're a millionaire. (yes, I'm 100% serious)
Of course because of inflation a millionaire ain't what it used to be, but it's still a fair amount of money.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 28, 2010 10:21 AM |
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I checked that - here is the site that lists nurse salaries:
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary-surveys/nursing/
That says, the national average is at $45.500.
The average in Germany is about €20.000 which is indeed EXTREMELY low compared with what they pay in the US (for the Germans - you can check that at Gehaltscheck.de)
On the other hand, if 45.000 bucks a year is about as high as it gets - how would it be easy to become a millionaire? Live in the hospital and eat the leftovers from the patients? In that case you may make it in, well, 40 years?
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friendofgunnar
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posted July 28, 2010 10:39 AM |
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Bini may be exxagerating with mowing lawns but the bit about the nurses is fairly true. If you're willing to
a)work night shift
b)work with old people
c)work overtime
you can make 65+ a year. If you spend 15 on living expenses you can hoard a million in twenty years. Not a very happy existance though  and I didn't even calculate trying to have kids.
Anyway here's an article about that probably belongs more in the socialism thread.
Farm workers Take our jobs please
The basic idea is to try and get all those unemployed people to take farm jobs. You might guess how the idea goes over.
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"Farm workers do the work that most Americans are not willing to do," said union president Arturo Rodriguez in the announcement of the campaign.
At least half a million applicants are needed to replace the immigrant workforce, so the union has posted an online application for Americans who want to work on a farm.
Through its Web site, at www.takeourjobs.org, the union promises to connect applicants with farm jobs in their area.
Since June 24, at least 4,000 people have responded to the application, said Rodriguez. Some are serious responses and others are hate mail. "Only a few dozen have really followed through with the process," he said.
Anyway, it kind of illustrates that the more of a social safety net you add the softer people get...
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Binabik
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posted July 28, 2010 10:45 AM |
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@ JJ Those numbers look very low compared to the last time I looked. I knew they were dropping, but I didn't know they had dropped that much. Also, some of those numbers are confusing and I'm not sure how to interpret them. However I've know a lot of nurses who make MUCH more than those numbers. It's also unclear if they are factoring in overtime.
Anyway, even at 45.5K per year I think it's still possible. At 45K per year I would be saving probably around 20-25K per year, so 200-250K principle over 10 years + compounded interest/dividends etc. And no, I wouldn't be eating leftover scraps to do it.
@FOG, I'll take a look at your post in a sec.
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Binabik
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posted July 28, 2010 10:54 AM |
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@ FOG
Around here lawns go for 50 bucks a pop. I just pulled a number out of my head, but does clearing $200 a day after expenses seem reasonable?
6 days a week = over 62K per year.
That's a lot of lawns, but it's in pretty high demand around here, so I don't think that's too unreasonable.
Whoops, just realized a big mistake. So it's shoveling snow in the winter and something else in the fall The point is that it's not really all that hard to do. It doesn't take some extreme measure or luck to do it. It just takes a "decent" pay and ability to save money.
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Mytical
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posted July 28, 2010 11:08 AM |
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I make 21k a year (no joke) and am able to save money regularly. At 45k a year, most of the amount over 21k a year would go directly to my bank account. So even not counting the amount I save at 21k/yr that would be 24k a year. 4 years for 100k, 40 for 1 mil not counting interest. Still a good deal of time (I would be 70ish), but if you start early yeah it can be done.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 28, 2010 11:15 AM |
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Didn't you forget taxes, medicare, pension payments, unemployment insurance, advanced and continuing education - and the willingness to have a life BESIDES tending ill, sick and dying?
And more importantly - isn't that all beside the point? I mean, what's the point to discuss that INDIVIDUAL people MAY have the opportunity to earn themselves a fortune within 20 or 30 years - provided they do nothing except work and do not partake in anything that costs money beside the bare necessities?
That is completely idiotic behaviour - you may die before that, and whaat kind of life would you have led up to then? More importantly, what kind of life will you lead, after you became a millionaire? Live off of 15.000 a year and scrath your back the whole day?
Still importantly, too: if enough peopele would behave that way, economy would simply break down, because people wouldn't spend enough of their money. Result: massive loss of jobs (no one buys stuff anymore) and failure on all fronts.
So this is pretty nonsensical.
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Mytical
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posted July 28, 2010 11:21 AM |
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No, you do not have to do without. You just have to realize that you don't have to keep up with the 'latest' of everything, and shop SMART. The $100 dollar shoes that fall apart in 6months vs the $20 shoes that last 5 years. The 'brand name' food/drink that cost 2x more vs the 'off brand' (that taste just as good, is just as filling). That 599 phone vs that 49.99 phone that has a full qwerty keyboard. Things like that.
Don't bother to get electronics immediately when they come out, wait till the price becomes more reasonable. Things like that.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 28, 2010 11:41 AM |
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I always am sceptical, when people are starting to tell what they would do, IF...
IF you had double the income, you'd pay more taxes.
IF you had banked your first 20.000 you'd suddenmly realize how exhausted you are from the night-shifting in the critical ward, and that you have to make the holiday count, so you'd book 2 weeks Hawaii instead of visiting mom and dad.
IF you had 100.000 banked, you'd feel that paying rent for the sinkhole you live in is not only a waste, but you'd realize that the neighborhood sucks, and since you don't go much out, saving your money, a nice condo in a quiet suburb or near your workplace would do you well and - on top of it - will save the rent money.
With the next 100.000 banked you'd realize that 100.000 are worth only half of what they were worth 5 years ago, and you might start wondering...
And that's not even catering for hobbies.
So let's just not get too hypothetical here.
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Mytical
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posted July 28, 2010 11:47 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:50, 28 Jul 2010.
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While that does happen, and I am not denying it does, all I can say is from my own personal experience. I live in the same place I did when I was making half what I make now, spending the same amount as I did then (adjusted for inflation), and have no desire for a bigger house/etc. Which is probably why I can save money when people who make twice or three times what I do try to BORROW from me.
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Binabik
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posted July 28, 2010 11:57 AM |
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JJ, Let me get this straight. You're calling the 3 of us liars?
I'm over 50 and Myt and FOG are over 30. We aren't some young kids who have no idea about how much things in the real world cost. We aren't some kids who have imaginary ideas about pay scales. I've been doing it long enough to know real darn close how much it costs me to live. I've worked a lot of different jobs in a lot of different industries in a lot of different states. I'm fully aware of how much money I can make and what it takes to do it.
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Mytical
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posted July 28, 2010 12:00 PM |
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I think it is more directed to myself Bina. As he is right, sometimes you never know WHAT you will do until you have done it. Since I have in fact went to making double (and actually more then that) while living at the same place, I do in fact pretty much know how I would behave. He had no way of knowing this however.
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friendofgunnar
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posted July 28, 2010 12:15 PM |
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@Bini, I find it hard to believe that anybody would pay more than $15 an hour for mowing lawns. Even rich people with money to burn are aware of what the labor market is like. If you've got your own year round landscaping business however with riding mower, truck, and other tools I could believe you'd make 65 gross if you worked your ass off. Living frugally as a single person would then net you 40k. As I said before though, that's without adding kids, a wife, and their health insurance to the calculations.
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Binabik
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posted July 28, 2010 12:47 PM |
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@ Myt
Bah, whatever. We're just a bunch of stupid Americans who don't know what the hell we're talking about. I guess it's government propaganda that almost all my friends that I grew up with are millionaires already. I guess it's all propaganda that all of them started at zero and worked hard to do it. Hell, it's probably even propaganda that I have any friends, so there is no way they could be millionaires. And I'm sure it's also propaganda that there are several millionaires on my street who are just basic engineers who retired young, and it's not some rich neighborhood, just a basic middle class area and an older one at that. I probably don't even live on a street, it's probably some government conspiracy creating an illusion of a street. If their illusion spell wears off I'll probably discover that I'm really starving in a back ally. Hmmm, I wonder if I should tell my friends and neighbors that they aren't really millionaires and it's all propaganda.
@FOG
$50 per lawn *IS* the going rate here. That's 1/2 acre lots. With a push mower it's about 1.5 hours, and with a rider is maybe 45-60 minutes, and with one of those fancy mowers less than 1/2 hour. I think it also typically includes a quick 5 minute pass with a weed trimmer. And of course if you want to stay busy it helps to be the friendly smiling face type of person.
Well, the sun's been up for over a half hour, so off to bed. Oh, that's right, I don't have a bed, it's all an illusion.
I wonder if it's also propaganda that I've earned below the so-called poverty level for half the years of my life, that I've never come close to the median income, but I saved my money and haven't worked for the last 6 years because I don't need to, and I sit around playing computer games and pretty much do whatever else I want. Oh, bad bad evil corporations exploiting me as a slave and forcing me to play computer games. It's all lies and propaganda, everything I see is an illusion.
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angelito
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posted July 28, 2010 02:26 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 17:42, 28 Jul 2010.
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Quote:
Anyway, even at 45.5K per year I think it's still possible. At 45K per year I would be saving probably around 20-25K per year,
This is where we (JJ and me) probably have difficulties to compare it with Germany. If someone in Germany earns 45,500 a year, he probably gets around 28,000 on his account. Everything else is gone for
- taxes
- social security contributions (unemployment insurance, health care, pension fund, nursing care insurance...)
Those things get off from your earned money automatically by the government before it is on your account.
From the money which finally lands on your account (28,000), you pay
- your rent (house, loft, etc...)
- Insurances (car, life, liability,...)
- maybe loans (car, interior, furniture, etc...)
So depending on the size and prize of your house, you may have 14,000 left. From those 14,000 (1,200 a month), you pay
- electricity
- Internet
- telephone
- food
- clothes
- etc...
So if we have around 1,200 a month, and we have cheap internet, cheap phone contract, hardly something to eat a day, only drink water, buy 1 new pair of trousers and shoes a year, you may have left 800 a month.
800 á month = est. 10,000 á year = est. 1 million in 100 years.
But you have never been on vacation in these 100 years....
How can a nurse become a millionaire that way????
And don't forget, I was taking YOUR wage, not the german, which is even lower!!!
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JollyJoker
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posted July 28, 2010 02:39 PM |
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Exactly.
And rents have gone up the last 10 years like nothing else. Even in a CHEAP area you will pay 5000 € a year for rent - for a small apartment with 60-70 square metres. And that's without heating, electricity and so on.
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Moonlith
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If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 28, 2010 06:08 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 18:08, 28 Jul 2010.
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Quote:
Marxists generally disavow the existence of God and say that rights come from the state, not from God.
What has got Marxism to do with this? I have to ask again; why is it when someone is opposed to Capitalism that automaticly makes him a
Marxist? Or are you really that pathetic you can only fight Marxism and therefore put the label "Marxist" on me? Because I really don't see any other reason other than stupidity.
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I say rights come from God---
Lal, enough said
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Sorry, but you are wrong. Rugged individualism is a prime reason for the success of America. Each person is ultimately responsible for himself. For ensureing his own success in life.
Go ahead, try and be independant; which means don't go to the store, you are independant after all right? Grow your own food, make your own furniture. Let's see how far you get.
Face it, humanity would never have gotten as far as they got if everyone had been an individualist, they wouldn't have gotten past the stoneage. The moment one provides a service for another, THAT'S when others can begin to specialize and move on to other things.
No, you are not independant, that's just foolish thinking.
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A nurse should easily be able to become a millionaire if they are moderately good at saving.
Wow, such a nice person you are; you just claimed nurses are doing a poor job. Nurses becoming millionaires? Jezus... I really didn't get where you got this rediculous idea untill I read this;
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I'm over 50
Aaaaand there we also have the one fact that explains your lacking ability to even grasp the idea the USA could ever be anything but that good little perfect chore-boy whose sole interest is the happyness of the world Yeah, this discussion is pointless.
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Heck, I think you could probably do it just mowing lawns Buy a lawn mower and start mowing lawns. Then buy a bigger lawn mower and mow bigger lawns. Keep doing it, save your money, and presto, you're a millionaire. (yes, I'm 100% serious)
LOL! I'm pretty sure if I said something about this I'd get another -1QP. But you probably get what I would have said.
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Anyway, it kind of illustrates that the more of a social safety net you add the softer people get...
And you'd rather live in a society filled with people like Mvass and Binabik? I'd rather live in a society where people actually care for another, you know, with actual hearts and souls. But that's just me.
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Dear rich person,
I'm writing to tell you that you are a bad person. You are evil and wicked. You should stop working so hard. You should stop being a sugar daddy and buying me so many nice things. You should stop paying all those taxes that buy my schools and fire departments and roads and nice parks. Those things are evil, so I wish you would quit buying them. Please stop being rich and paying all those taxes. That way if I want evil wicked things like schools I can work a lot more hours to pay for them myself.
If you would please stop being a sugar daddy I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
Sincerely
Poor person who wants to work more hours
Dear uninformed person,
Please stop talking bullsnow and stop living in your deluded little fantasy world.
Sincerely
God
Quote:
I think you are the one who don't understand. people who seriously complain about work don't do it because they want to become rich sitting on their butt... work is a cause for many of world problems.
health problems, from tiredness and stress to more serious illness
psychological problems due to pressure at work, or simply the alienation due to a repetitive task for example. work makes people stupid.
deterioration of social life, due to people becoming stupid and to the education learning you that life is competition.
by extension, defection from political life, due to people having lost their ability to think AND not having enough time for it anyway, since they are spending their time working their ass off.
and of course, critical environmental problems due to industrials wanting to keep selling mass of useless items. producing something doesn't only involve the work of some people, but also, a lots of pollution, and often, the utilisation of that item will also cause pollution.
and the system actually encourages people to contribute to that disaster : if you want to be happy, buy stuffs, if you want to buy stuffs, work harder that way more stuffs are produced. if you want them, work even harder.
notice also that the "miracle" solution to "save the world" usually is to "relaunch the economy" which basically means polluting more and brainwashing people.
and seriously, you can just laugh when people so concerned about economy talk about ecology, because they can't care less about the future of the planet, the only thing they see is how much money they can save thanks to ecology on the long term. (I read Paul Aries who just slaughters the pseudo-ecologist. guys who try to look respectable but only care about their own interests)
Nicely summed up and QFT.
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