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| Thread: archery; pros and cons (HOMM3) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 04:37 AM |
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archery; pros and cons (HOMM3)
I wanted to discuss the ins and outs of the Archery skill. On the one hand, it's nice because it can achieve 50% bonus and beyond. On the other hand, it only applies to shooters. Which can often be a very narrow application. Say you start off with Rampart, with a fine third level double archer. Even if you were to conquer an Inferno for example, you can still only hire Gogs, which isn't at all worth it.
So I'd like to hear everybody's thoughts on it. Tell me why it sucks. Tell me why you always choose it.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 20, 2008 10:59 AM |
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It depends on the template. How rich/poor and fast/slow is the map.
If you expext fast wars your shooters (espetialy if you are rampart) plays very important role. Outshooting your opponent will force him to come towards you, instead of you going towards him. And this is very good strategicly.
But if you have power stacks of level 7 units, and/or lots/horde of wyverns from hives, than shooters will not play such important role. In this case you need other skills badly.
So, in some cases archery is average skill and is not a waste. But on other occasions its total crap.
To be more precise - on Balance archery can win the game for you, on Jebus archery can ruin your game.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 20, 2008 11:07 AM |
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I think it depends more on the town u play than the map.
If u play Tower, archery is never a wasted skill. If u play fortress, it is always a wasted skill.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 20, 2008 11:55 AM |
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I respectfully disagree 
On Jebus with one mass haste of the opponent all the archery of the tower is a WASTE. Because the fastest unit is only speed 11, so probably all the opponents army will hit and be next to the units, so no shooting possible.
On the other hand about fortress - on balance you have second town same alighment. Native heroes brings a lot of second level creatures aswell. That means a lots of lizzards. So if you play Wystan its not imposible to outshoot your opponent. Or even if you dont outshoot him (in case of rampart oponent) at least it will be close, there will be not much elves left in his army and you will not suffer a lot.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 20, 2008 12:55 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 12:57, 20 Feb 2008.
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Sorry to say liophy, but this is a typical "Jebus 130% player" response.
There is more than such a setup.
You have maps and templates where u do not meet day 11, where u play much more fights vs the map. And the computer player can't cast mass haste.
So with the same argument "Logistics won't help in endfight, but helps to get to the endfight earlier", you can say the same about archery.
A throng of mastergremlins with 5 single mastergenies and expert archery is 1 of the main weapons of Tower in early/middle stage of the game, EXCEPT on Jebus.
And about your example refering to Lizzards. 2nd native heroes don't come with LOTS of lizzards, but maybe 4-6. Lizzard Warriors may be sturdy coz of their defense ability, but compared to their usefullness, especially in map cleansing compared to Tower, archery is still wasted. Fortress does fights with 1 or 3 hydras better, than having 40 lizzards. While on the other hand, Tower can take on HUGH army with just Mastergremlins and mastergenies. Fight 150 dendroids with Tower start week 2, and then with fortress.
I would really love to see more players play templates which take a bit longer and need a bit more strategical thinking. Like Extreme, Extreme 2, Frozen Dragons, Marathon and similiars.
Most of the responses I see here lately are based on Jebus 130% or Balance 130% and only refer to endfight situations.
Boring.
(No offense!)
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Jelze
Adventuring Hero
of Electromancy
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posted February 20, 2008 01:50 PM |
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All dependent on what castle you are I think. Some use it better than others.
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 02:36 PM |
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I used to love shooter armies, but I run into problems too often. If your shooters can be blocked, you need to guard them. Then it turned out, these guards were able to do the main work much better, than my shooters. Offense started to look better than archery. Currently, I often play without any ranged units on my main, and don't have the archery skill. Ofcourse, there are exceptions. Some towns just don't work without shooters.
It is true, early archery gives a good boost. However, there are hundreds of ways, to beat a horde of Zombies early, with few losses. Ranged units are not required. And even the 150 Dendroids with only Master Gremlins and 1 Genie doesn't need the Archery skill. It just takes a bit longer (and an ammo cart).
Expert Earth gives a much greater boost than archery. I want earth, and take the other skillss as they come. If it is archery - fine. If it isn't, it is also ok.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 20, 2008 03:09 PM |
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Edited by liophy at 15:32, 20 Feb 2008.
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I agree with you Angelito, its not always Jebus 130 and Balance 130 (Even though its 90% of the cases). There are different templates and they require diferent stratefies.
But this do not contradict my first statement at all that the usefullness of the skill depends on the map.
And if you are trying to convince me that archery is better for tower than for fortess... there is no need to do that. its pretty much obvious.
But still i think that the usefullness of the archery depends more on the template rather than the town. Its just my oppinion at the current moment.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 20, 2008 05:53 PM |
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I seriously disagree that it matters what town you're playing. Recently, I played a large with underground random and I was starting off with Rissa in Tower. Day 1, I built the Gremlin upgrade for obvious reasons. Day two, I built the Town Hall. While travelling on day 3, I took over a nuetral Dungeon that had an external Medusa Stores and a Witch's Hut that taught Logistics each less than a day away from the Dungeon.
Because of the Medusa Stores and the Dungeon's Portal of Summoning potential, I had already decided that I would play with Dungeon forces primarily despite my Tavern heroes leaning towards Tower each week. The 90some Master Gremlins I was carrying from the start was useful. Not one week later, I conquered an enemy's Dungeon. I was so busy building up those cities that I had never built in the Tower again for many weeks.
In week 1, I was able to recruit Alamar. I gave him a few Red Dragons, let him level up. Because I had two Dungeons, I had a pile of Red Dragons with at least Advanced Earth Resurrection to back them up. I knocked over a Utopia, had the funds to buy out most creatures, and was able to bring to a recently conquered city of mine weeks upon weeks of developed Dungeon creatures (from three cities) even though that much time hadn't actually elapsed yet.
Archery aside, my point is that just because you start off with one city, doesn't mean that's what you'll ultimately be playing. If I had a dollar for every time I shifted gears even in midgame just because I had found both a Castle and an external Portal of Glory...
The reason I started this topic is that I have respect for Archery. Starting off with Ivor, building the Homestead day 1, Ivor can use just that starting compliment to do some real damage even weeks later, and with tremendous bite thanks in part to Archery skill. But I noticed that when it comes siege time on a city, Archery is almost fully negated.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 21, 2008 10:56 AM |
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But u said it yourself:
You changed town to castle coz u found PoG.
Now u changed to Dungeon coz u found Town and medusa dwell.
Both are towns who have 2 shooters, so archery isn't wasted.
How often do you change to Fortress or Inferno?
And about your siege comment. This is a point which only counts in singleplayer games. Multiplayer games don't have sieges in 95% of all cases.
Tower area (if native snow) tend to have a bunch full of gremlin dwellings. So it isn't that rare to have aorund 200 mastergremlins week 2. And they are cheap. Compared to 25 medusae.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 25, 2008 12:10 AM |
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I agree with Angelito. The most important factor is what town you play. For archery to be worth something you need to have some decent shooters, its as simple as that. And gogs and lizards are not decent shooters.
It also means something what temp you play. For rampart archery is usefull on balance where elfs are often your best powerstack but pretty useless on jebus where elfs are very rarely a powerstack.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 25, 2008 12:41 AM |
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I'm undecided on archery a lot of times, but I never rarely take it with less than two shooter stacks. (I don't like that word "never")
Even with Tower I don't always take it. Giants might not get upgraded and grems might get replaced by something else.
I've given it to Gurnison before. It's fun watching how much freaking damage he can do with his ballista at high levels. It might not be the best strategy, but it's fun.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 25, 2008 01:13 AM |
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Edited by demarest at 04:58, 25 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
I agree with Angelito. The most important factor is what town you play.
What about the situation I mentioned above? It's not exactly unique. For example, the map I posted in the what would you do thread, I started off with Fortress. No need for Archery, right? Except that week 1, I took over a Cyclops cave, a Stronghold, and had enough crystal to be able to beuild the Cyclops cave in that town. Suddenly Archery looks quite justifiable, eh?
I love this game and it's many diversities
[EDIT]
I only just realized that Offense only increases hand-to-hand damage. That changes things a bit.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 25, 2008 08:04 AM |
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The problem here is, you (Demarest) talk about 3DO templates, where u could find tons of different towns, probably with fort prebuilt, where it is a possibility to change faction. This won't happen in multiplayer games, because the templates are not created like this.
You may find different towns on custom made templates, but first of all, u do not find them that early, or if u do, u first have to build a fort in those neutral towns, which is not possible that early.
On many templates, neutral towns are set to necro, just to prevent people from double building, but to have an additional income and a marketplace.
And if I go all random on a random map setup, I stick to the town the comp gave me day 1. If I would change only coz I find a different one, why not choosing this town from the start then?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 25, 2008 08:20 AM |
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Quote:
Most of the responses I see here lately are based on Jebus 130% or Balance 130%
If I remember right, Balance doesn't have many fights, not enough to max out 8 skills. This would make archery less desirable because you will use less skill slots. So the skills you pick need to be the most important ones.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 25, 2008 10:13 AM |
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Edited by demarest at 11:27, 25 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
The problem here is, you (Demarest) talk about 3DO templates, where u could find tons of different towns, probably with fort prebuilt, where it is a possibility to change faction. This won't happen in multiplayer games, because the templates are not created like this.
It was my intention to talk about HOMM3. I was asking people's thoughts on Archery. Not Archery under specific circumstances, such as custom templates.
Quote:
And if I go all random on a random map setup, I stick to the town the comp gave me day 1. If I would change only coz I find a different one, why not choosing this town from the start then?
Well in my first example, I had located a Dungeon with a Chapel of Stilled Voices just outside of it on day 3. That means three weeks worth of Medusas before the end of week one, with an extra double growth each following week. Is that not a good reason to switch factions? The upgraded Gremlin dwelling was already built back home, so the fact that my heroes were weekly going to lean towards Tower wasn't even a loss really.
In my second example, there was no switching of factions. However, going by the blind rule that it depends on the starting city, I would lose out when starting as Fortress, but later taking both a Cyclops Cave and a Stronghold. Now I'll have three archer stacks available to me and I think Archery on a main on such a map would be justified. I trust this answers your question.
[EDIT]
Does Archery impact damage dealt by a Ballista?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 25, 2008 02:23 PM |
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Ballista = range attack = archery.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted April 24, 2016 10:32 PM |
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Since some other similar threads have been revised...
angelito said:
So with the same argument "Logistics won't help in endfight, but helps to get to the endfight earlier", you can say the same about archery.
I was thinking exactly this some hours ago.
I have not been a great fan of Archery for long since I usually play WoG modified maps where one can easily get strong stacks of fast close combat units quite early but recently I've been playing some HotA maps (always with Cove) and feeling that what I can gain by doing some battles a few days early perfectly justify to have a mostly useless skill in hero X hero battles.
I must mention all my Cove experience is against AI.
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markmasters
Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
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posted April 24, 2016 11:59 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Since some other similar threads have been revised...
angelito said:
So with the same argument "Logistics won't help in endfight, but helps to get to the endfight earlier", you can say the same about archery.
I was thinking exactly this some hours ago.
I have not been a great fan of Archery for long since I usually play WoG modified maps where one can easily get strong stacks of fast close combat units quite early but recently I've been playing some HotA maps (always with Cove) and feeling that what I can gain by doing some battles a few days early perfectly justify to have a mostly useless skill in hero X hero battles.
I must mention all my Cove experience is against AI.
I just thought the same thing, I think although Cove only uses two ranged units archery still justifies a lot of it.
I believe it also boosts the canon's damage, which is a lot in the early game of the game. The canon is a bigger threat than most early game shooters, and In combination with mass bless pirates and sorceresses clear a lot of units.
What often decided whether I take archery or not are also the dwellings around my town, if a few of them offer ranged units, I likely take archery early to snowball the map faster.
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zmudziak22
Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
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posted May 06, 2016 12:08 PM |
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If I go for Archery I mostly choose factions where are atleast 2 shooters, Orrin with only Marksmen, Monks and Angels can win many fights. If AI is very strong I put as backup Crusaders and Champions to protect.
Orrin Skills:
Leadership, Archery, Water, Earth, Wisdom, Tactics, Logistics, Armor/Offense/Intelligence/Air
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