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| Thread: Heroes ranking |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 14, 2008 05:49 PM |
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Wow, this is great stuff. You make a strong case and some excellent points. And I must admit my experience with Damacon is very good.
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Well, the weight table doesn't say the whole truth now, does it?
I guess not. What do you think the chance is to get a good skill as lvl 2 or 3? (including fire magic and pathfinding). My guess would be close to 70%.
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I am saying only the good stuff I guess
Let me make a few counterpoints then. As I mentioned barbarians have a big advantage regarding air. Besides that it can hurt you if you have to give Damacon 2 k of xp just to find out he got a crappy 2nd skill. Shakti and Dace bring you security in that way. Pathfinding is an important skill on many temps. If you take that in to acount you will get some other results. Barbarians are better in pf. On the other hand pf is normally not a skill you need early in the game.
Correct me if im wrong but isnt the main diffrence between Shak and Damacon in getting the best skills (log and earth) the lvl 3 advancement where Damacon gets 2 new skills and shak only one. And if lets say they both get armor as lvl 3 then shakti suddenly has the better chance of getting log because of Damacons 10 in tactics?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 14, 2008 06:09 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 18:53, 14 Mar 2008.
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You are right liophy, the chances are pretty high. Let's see with an example.
Before that a note:
For positive a, b, x:
If a/b < 1, then (a - x)/(b-x) < a/b.
What you want is to minimize the sum of all crappy skills. But you can not do something about that because that depends on the weight table. lol. So we have to "loosen" our definition of crappy skills. I'll give an example: Say that we will accept any of the following skills:
Air, Archery, Armorer, Artillery, Earth, Fire, Leadership, Logistics, Offense (<-- Damacon has it), Pathfinding, Tactics, and Wisdom.
Then, the rest of the skills, which are crappy, sum up to 45. Assume that your policy is not to accept a crappy skill, but get anything from the above list.
When reaching level 2 you get a crappy skill with probability 45/104 ~= 43.3%.
Due to the policy, we upgrade Offense. Then, on the next level, on the left you get a crappy skill with probability 45/104 again, while on the right side you get a crappy skill with probability (45-Wx)/(104-Wx), where Wx is the weight of skill x on your left. By the note above, the probability on the right is bounded from above by 45/104 (= the probability on the left). Hence, according to the policy, you get a crappy skill if all three events happen during the level up. So, this is expected to happen with probability less than (45/104)^3 ~= 8.1 %
So, with probability 8.1% we'll get a crappy skill by level 3. Or with 92% we 'll get something useful. If we remove Leadership from the above list (which unfortunately for Overlords weighs 8 - much), then the same computation leads to something less than 13.3%
But the point is, you will know very early in the game whether or not this happened - day 1, or 2 tops. So, to my eyes, it's worth the risk of attempting something with him, mainly because he has chances to get a good skill as a second skill and his specialty is not wasted.
Of course, if the comparison boils down to skills-only, then maretti is right, Dace and Shakti are better alternatives*, because they already start with one more skill among the ones that you want. But, when they are recruited in a non-dungeon environment, their specialty is of no use. 
So, my moto, if you feel lucky, risk it. You don't risk that much. You have almost 90% of getting what you want. I know that the other 10% sucks. But that's life.
Edit:
Regarding what maretti says above, yes, 2k of experience is much. But what about 1k? Then, you have > 55% that this guy should not be a scouter, but your actual main.
And yes again; Barbarians seem to have a better analysis if you include more skills; at least it seems so in a first glance ...
As far as the comparison of Shakti and Damacon, yes again. At level 3 you "root" 2 big trees in the case of Damacon compared to 1 "big" and 1 "small" tree in the case of Shakti. And both will have to reach level 23 in the end. So, Damacon has higher chance of getting a single skill when compared to Shakti.
Edit 2: I guess the above explain why I am eager to implement something that computes what's going when you place a cut-off at an intermediate level (when you are about to "break"), or/and something that computes probs for groups of skills that you want (--> with/without the group hierarchy that you have proposed).
*A justification to that can be seen on the tables that are generated. The 100% that appears on heroes with an extra skill, is distributed among the rest of the skills, meaning a 100/27 ~= 3.7% on average boost for the rest of the skills. Which skills are the ones boosted more? The ones with high weights, that are not forced to appear by the model. For example, check the entry on Logistics for Damacon w.r.t. the rest of the dungeon guys (forget Gunnar). He gets almost 4.5% boost of acquiring the skill, simply because he doesn't start with a new skill. Of course the price for Damacon, is the lower chances of acquiring the second skill, w.r.t. the chances (100%) of the other guy that you compare with him. For example, when you compare him with Arlach on AL, he has chances about 33% of obtaining Artillery, while Arlach has the obvious dominating 100%. So, w.r.t. Arlach he is worse on Artillery (but not with the rest of the guys).
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The empty set
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 14, 2008 07:23 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 19:24, 14 Mar 2008.
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I am just quoting myself because the edit might be missed:
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As far as the comparison of Shakti and Damacon, yes again. At level 3 you "root" 2 big trees in the case of Damacon compared to 1 "big" and 1 "small" tree in the case of Shakti. And both will have to reach level 23 in the end. So, Damacon has higher chance of getting a single skill when compared to Shakti.
I am not sure if this is a direct consequence of the real reason. The real reason, is that Damacon does not have a second skill initially (and that's it whatever that means). Therefore the second slot is available for Earth and Logistics, while these skills can not fit in that slot for heroes that start with two skills. However, that very second slot is also available for the other skills as well. That's why all of the skills have boosted probabilities in Damacon's case apart from the second skill of the hero with which you want to compare him (see * above).
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The empty set
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 14, 2008 08:08 PM |
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Edited by maretti at 01:41, 15 Mar 2008.
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Naturally you are right that he has that one more free slot, I didnt think of that. But in case we are talking about getting log and earth early the diffrence is the 2 skills offered to damacon at lvl 3 where shakti is only offered 1.
If we look at Damacon and his skill at lvl 3 I think its nessesary to make 3 skillgroups instead of the 2 you made. First group is the wanted skills: earth, air, log, tactics, armor, pf in many cases and probably fire. If he gets one of them he will be better (or if tactics as good as) Shakti. Second group is medium skills: wisdom, artillery, leadership and archery. If he gets one of these he will still be usefull but not as good as Shakti. And 3rd group are the crap skills.
When I guessed at 70% I was talking about the chance to get a skill from the first group.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 14, 2008 11:32 PM |
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Let's see because I haven't written down the numbers ever.
Sum(2nd group) = 24
I also assume that on your first offer we will not accept any skill that does not belong in the first group. Hence, "crap" sums up to 69. nice number... is it a sign?
Something among them is offered and now on the next level we get on our left First Aid and on our right Intelligence. But this time "crap" is the third group only because we are not that unhappy with the second group either. (As a general rule, the sooner you get Wisdom [see 2nd group], the more you increase your chances for something among the skills that you want for subsequent levels).
So, (69/104)*(45/104)*(44/103) ~= 12.3%
On the other hand, if we want strictly something from the first group both times we have:
(69/104)*(69/104)*(68/103) = 29.1% wow maretti! 
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The empty set
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted March 15, 2008 02:20 AM |
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@FriendOfGunnar: Whats so great about planewalkers?
After 15,000 xp / level 10, (which is what I believe a player would have when he tries to crack the first utopia), the average primary skill for all eight was: 6.6 3.25 2.75 2.375, which to me is pretty close to the ideal profile (for general battles, not necessarily trying to crack utopias).
The main reason I like planeswalkers is because it's a safe bet to get either expert air or expert earth by the time of the final battle (this is still level 10). I did this skill selection based on Jebus/Castle, which means I didn't put a priority on wisdom or pathfinding
You'll notice I didn't get a single crap choice with the planeswalkers and I only got a couple of middle grade choices (leadership and scouting)
The only two who failed the earth/air test were Lacus and Monere, however the next time I did the test Monere got this, which is a perfect level 10 profile.
and I can learn to avoid Lacus...
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 15, 2008 09:15 AM |
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lacus is actually good to start with. advanced tactics. can attack ranged troops very early on.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 16, 2008 03:19 PM |
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Edited by maretti at 15:33, 16 Mar 2008.
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@FriendOfGunnar: I agree with you that their primary skilldevelopement is pretty good. Being strong in attack and offense is better than being strong in defence and armor. But there are actually no might heroes that have a lower chance of getting air or earth at lvl 4 than planewalkers who has a 50 % chance. Its a problem that they can get both water and fire magic. On the other hand your exampels show that they are pretty strong heroes, I just feel that there are some other classes that are stronger.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 16, 2008 03:27 PM |
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I look at (armor, off, log) specialists at this way: They have an extra secondary skill. They basicly have 9 secondary skills, 2 in whatever they specialize. So when Crag Hack reaches lvl 7 he basicly has exp off and basic off, at lvl 14 he has exp off and adv off and at lvl 20 he has 2 times exp off. From lvl 20 he starts developing a 3rd! off skill. This shows how extremly powerfull the specialists are and why they are so high on my list. Does this make any sense?
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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sub_zero
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 19, 2008 01:01 AM |
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Edited by sub_zero at 23:59, 20 Mar 2008.
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@maretti and angelito:
could you explain why you put gundula so high on your list. her offence speciality is of cource very good along with her starting slow, but she does not have a good primary skilling and her chances to get armorer and pathfinding is not very good. i find barbarians to be much more reliable. i hope you could get some more discussion around this thread, i find it interesting. picking a top 10 is quite hard, but i'll gite it a try. i think 4 heroes stand out from the rest, the 6 other are harder to choose from.
my list:
1. Crag Hack
2. Tazar
3. Gunnar
4. Mephala
5. Neela
6. Tyraxor
7. Gretchin
8. Gundula
9. Alkin
10. Shakti/Dace
the reason i left kyrre out is that i usually have problems getting both armorer and offence with him, along with his high chance for water magic. but he is a great hero, no doubt. i also agree with FriendOfGunnar that monore is a great hero, but i thind other heroes are bether
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 19, 2008 06:56 PM |
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Edited by maretti at 19:06, 19 Mar 2008.
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You might very well have a point. No doubt her primary skilldevelopement isnt very good, on the other hand its not a disaster either. Overall you get most of your stats from maplocations and arts. Picking her as main is somewhat more risky than taking guys like Alkin or Tyrexor. You have a much higher risk of getting some crap 2nd skills, on the other hand, if she gets good skills you are rewarded with a great main. Dessa have the same problem and I find her to weak in might to be on my top 10.
On templates where boxes with high level spells are possible, like jebus, her wisdom is an ok skill to start with. On poor templates it will be a waste in most cases. Imo offense is the best specialty you can have. Being able to deal great damage will make fighting the ai much easier. If you do enough damage you dont have to worry about retaliation and if the ai expect high retaliation it prefer hitting single units and fodderstacks.
After looking a bit closer at Neela and Gundulas stats I placed Neela over Gundula on my list. Especially in magic she is somewhat better.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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sub_zero
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 19, 2008 07:40 PM |
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I agree that wisdom is bether on jebus than on most other templates, and advancing more in power could be a advantage if you get spells like implosion. her offence speciality make up for the lower attack skill.
on the other hand i don't think she will do more damage than tyraxor, because offence is somewhat the same as having +6 attack, right? tyraxor will do more damage from day 1 because he starts with 2 more in attack, ad will advance bether than gundula. tyraxor's starting tactics make early fights much easier, especially against shooters, and he have higher chance of getting the secondary skills you want. gundula will have a hard time getting the tactics/armorer/pathfinding-combo
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 19, 2008 08:04 PM |
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I don't think armorer is a skill u really need for a barbarian / battle mage if u play stronghold. Attack is the way to go. Vs neutral creatures and vs human in endfight. Your way to go is mass haste and get the first strike. Defense stats of stronghold army is pretty low, so the armorer reduction isn't that big of a deal....imho.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 19, 2008 09:38 PM |
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lacus is actually good to start with. advanced tactics. can attack ranged troops very early on.
Actually on grass ground and the Autocombat Button you can reach/erase any low level ranged troop ON DAY ONE.
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sub_zero
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 19, 2008 10:29 PM |
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Edited by sub_zero at 22:34, 19 Mar 2008.
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I don't think armorer is a skill u really need for a barbarian / battle mage if u play stronghold. Attack is the way to go. Vs neutral creatures and vs human in endfight. Your way to go is mass haste and get the first strike. Defense stats of stronghold army is pretty low, so the armorer reduction isn't that big of a deal....imho.
offence is bether than armorer with stronghold, no question about that. but armorer is still a very good skill, and is among the seven skills most people always look for, right? (offence, armorer, logistics, pathfinding, tactics, air, earth)
and i really do think armorer makes a difference, especially on maps like jebus where you could get a lot of extra angels/wyverns
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sub_zero
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 06:12 PM |
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would you consider a armorer specialist to be your main with stronghold? lets say you are playing jebus xl with stronghold and have to choose between tyraxor and tazar/mephala. normally tazar/mephala would be the natural choice, but stronghold is somewhat different to the other towns. who whould you choose? what if gunnar comes into the picture, would you choose him over the others?
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 20, 2008 06:17 PM |
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Yes for Tazar. Not sure about Mephala (I am afraid of Water  - flip a coin to decide). And yes for Gunnar.
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The empty set
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devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted March 20, 2008 06:41 PM |
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think when it comes to taz, only person you can consider subbing is craig, other than tat any type of town he will be extremly usefull, gunner to be honest i would see the first few lvls and see how tyraxor or gurni would fair vs gunner in skills department. No doubt gunner is very usefull specially in xl maps, but sometimes i have had the problem chaining with him as its hard for the scouts to keep up with him. As far as meph is concerned she is powerfull as any specialty hero in tat caliber, but i might barve it wit the barbs
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 20, 2008 08:28 PM |
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Of course I would take Crag or Mephala as main for Stronghold. Neela not...as explained in my earlier post.
Reason for choosing Taz or Meph even though I consider armorer not essential for stronghold is the skill tree. Taz levels up very well, Meph mostly. You brought up the path/armorer/tactics combo as difficult for Gundula. That's why I said armorer isn't that important...
Imagine what power Crag would have if he could learn water magic and then clone his Ancients.....this is what Gundula is able to do...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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sub_zero
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 11:57 PM |
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good point about clone. i guess you can say that gundula brings more diversity in final battle. expert clone can be amazing if you have a big powerstack.
on the other hand i don't think water magic is very usefull against the map at any point and is not something i would want early in the game. on jebus i simply think tyraxor will be able to break to the middle sooner than than gundula because of his higher damage and bether secondary developing. but you have made some good points, i guess i have underestimated her. will put her higher on my list.
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