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| Thread: question for Demon farmers |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 26, 2008 02:22 AM |
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question for Demon farmers
Demon farming is fun, let's be honest. Converting crap units into tanks, especially when used with a hero that gives them +1 speed is great. Best part is that if you're done farming for the moment, you can still split off a few Demons to be resurrected to minimize losses.
Here's my question: Do those of you who farm Demons also convert Hell Hounds? Pros of doing so is saving on building upgrade to Cerberi and consolidating creatures for a power stack with greater HP, def, etc. Cons being that speed 8 no retaliation is nice. Yes, they have a triple attack, but how often does that come up? Share your thoughts.
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mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
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posted February 26, 2008 02:27 AM |
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what exactly is demon farming?
when i raise them they dissapear at the end of battle?
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 26, 2008 03:35 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 03:38, 26 Feb 2008.
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@Mamga, they don't disappear after the battle.
Demon farming is making demons from lower level creatures. You can create a big stack of demons that way.
There should be other threads for this also.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 26, 2008 05:13 AM |
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Quote:
what exactly is demon farming?
when i raise them they dissapear at the end of battle?
You must be casting Ressurection with less than Advanced Earth Magic.
Demon farming is the process by which you take advantage of the Pit Lords special ability to raise fallen allies as Demons. For each Pit Lord you have, you can raise 50 HPs worth of Demons. That is based on the number of HPs of the fallen stack, but it can never produce more Demons than the stack actually had. So even though a Firebird has a lot of HP, it will still only be raised as Demons at 1:1.
Playing Inferno, Imps/Familiars are only good for fodder. Consciously changing them to Demons consolidates their HP, helps create a power stack, and curtails battle losses. Likewise, Gogs aren't anything special either. Using the equations above, your first week's compliment of three Pit Lords can convert 35 Imps or 11 Gogs into four Demons. Observe the following:
If you build Demon Gate and Castle first week, second week, you could only have 14 Demons. In that picture there, I had only just purchased six Demons and even then, only because I was tackling a Medusa Stores second week. Had I tried that with Imps and Gogs, I would've lost more than the four fodder Imps that I did.
Say you go up against a single Naga. Unbridled, it will destroy five Imps, one Gog, or zero Demons. That's the benefit of consolidating their HPs. Plus Demons have higher att and def, so the likelihood of them even receiving as much damage as an Imp or Gog is less. If you're taking those same six Pit Lords and 24 Demons into a tougher battle, you can split the Demons up into a lesser and greater stack. Make sure the lesser one is in an earlier slot so it can soak up retaliation before the big stack gets in there. Make sure the lesser stack dies off and then raise them back!
It's not the greatest thing in the HOMM3 world, but it puts the crap stacks to good use and gives you a tougher army in the early game and a tremendous stack for mid and endgame. I'm just curious if others bother liquidating their Hell Hounds as well.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 26, 2008 06:49 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 06:51, 26 Feb 2008.
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I know some people farm hell hounds, but I usually don't for several reason. It's up to you if you do or not, and I think it depends partly on the map.
It's not very efficient farming hell hounds. First, you're not getting a big gain in stats. Second, there's a good chance you'll end up losing hit points in the deal. With imps, you can lose a maximum of 3 "unused" hit points. With hounds, you can lose 20 hit points. It's a lot of work for little gain, and potentially a loss. If you are good at it, know all the ratios well, and don't let it distract you from more important things like winning the fight or playing the map, then it might be worth it.
You mentioned farming with three lords. Is it worth it? In the early game you should be concentrating on winning fights, playing the map and your build. You will have plenty of opportunites to farm, there's no hurry when other things are more important. It's easy to get larger stacks of imps and other low level creatures killed. You can do all your fights normally, and then when you have a decent size stack of lords and imps chained through normal chaining rather than a special "farming chain", then go ahead and raise several demons at once.
If you get concerned about raising just a few demons at a time, it'll end up distracting you and you'll have a special farming chain that passes small numbers of fodder back and forth. Again, if someone is good at it and does it without thinking, it might be different.
Basically I'm saying wait until you are good at it and then decide.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 26, 2008 07:28 AM |
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The ratios are easy with native creatures. It takes nine Imps to form one Demon. To scale it, that would be 9, 18, 27... 35. 35 is perfect because that's the number of HPs a Demon has. Similarly, it takes three Gogs to form one Demon. That would be scaled as 3, 6, 9... 11. With 11, you have only four HPs "wasted" and you save a Gog in the transaction. Finally, there's Hell Hounds. They're actually the easiest to consider because their HP is a factor of five just as the Demons are. Here, you will need a fourth Pit Lord for the ideal transaction. Seven Hell Hounds translates to five Demons with no wasted HP.
The reason I mentioned three Pit Lords is two reasons: It is the starting week's compliment and therefore, it is common in the beginning. I agree with you that you don't farm just for the sake of farming. But if you're in a battle and you're going to suffer some losses anyways (almost a rule if you're using Imps  ), you may as well apply a little strategy and lose a little more so that you actually lose nothing and in fact upgrade your army.
The other aspect to Demon farming is going to get some boo's from the gallery and rightfully so: Diplomacy. In the game that screen was taken from, I had a Witch's Hut right outside my city that taught Diplomacy. I figured since I was farming, I should take it. Good call. Higher level joins can be keepers. Lower level ones can be assimilated. Sort of like a portable Skeleton Transformer, but for Demons 
You're right that in time, I had more Pit Lords and could transform many more. I spent most of week 1 fighting normally. Week 2 was more fighting normally, but farming out my lesser creatures. Week 3 was run around with all the Efreeti and Pit Lords I could afford. That made more lesser stacks join, which were quickly converted to Demons for free. Had I only been carrying enough Pit Lords for my farming purposes, I wouldn't have been able to do that. Good advice there 
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted February 26, 2008 07:38 AM |
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I've never seen the advantage of demon farming. You're basically converting 1250 gold of useless troops into 1000 gold worth of demons. Why not just spend the money on useful creatures from another town? I'm also surprised anybody would want to convert the hounds, they're economical and useful at all stages of the game.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 26, 2008 12:01 PM |
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Quote:
I've never seen the advantage of demon farming. You're basically converting 1250 gold of useless troops into 1000 gold worth of demons. Why not just spend the money on useful creatures from another town? I'm also surprised anybody would want to convert the hounds, they're economical and useful at all stages of the game.
You only have 7 slots for creatures on a hero. You can get strong creatures for free (wyverns, angels), so u just need 5 filled slots. So there is no need for level 1 and level 2 troops later on. And u don't need to just dismiss them, but sacrifice them as fodder (which makes fights easier to win) and raise more powerfull units for free.
1 cheap artefatcs (ring of life) raises the effect enormous. Imps have 5 health now, means u need 7 imps to get 1 demon. 140 imps make 20 demons. If I already have 20 demons in my army, what do you think is the better thing: 140 imps and 20 demons, or 40 demons (and a free slot for another unit...)?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted February 26, 2008 12:59 PM |
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I convert the dogs too. Its pretty easy to avoid losing to many hp. 3 dogs give 2 demons with only 5 hp lost, thats not too bad. In generel you dont lose any hp if you sacrifice stacks of 35 or 35 times x. The easiest way to avoid loses is having powerstacks. The more units you convert to demons the bigger and more usefull powerstack you will get. No neutral creture will hit a stack of 100 or more demons as long as they can hit something else, but they sure will hit a stack of 30 cerberi. And as Angelito said its better to fill the slots with other creaures, even a single unit that can take retaliation is better than a stack that can be smacked down with one heavy strike.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted February 26, 2008 02:35 PM |
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I think the other main advantage besides having a power stack and free slots is also when u upgrade ur demon, u will get more hp added to it, 10(or is it 5 per demon), which does cover the lost hp.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 26, 2008 09:54 PM |
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Edited by demarest at 21:58, 26 Feb 2008.
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Excellent point, Devangle!
Quote:
I've never seen the advantage of demon farming. You're basically converting 1250 gold of useless troops into 1000 gold worth of demons. Why not just spend the money on useful creatures from another town? I'm also surprised anybody would want to convert the hounds, they're economical and useful at all stages of the game.
I'd take that as a vote against converting the dogs, but if you're not even up on farming in the first place... As for not seeing the advantage, it's already been covered. Perhaps be more specific about the elements of the strategy you're not sure about. Looking at it from a purely gold perspective is short-sighted. Sure there's a money discrepency; Hell, converting from Imps actually lessens the amount of damage you will inflict. Point being that Demons have staying power that Imps do not.
Don't forget that farming has two stages. Demon creation is just half the story. As mentioned above, you can then use them to reduce losses. Example:
The War Unicorns were free due to Diplomacy. With or without them, you're just not going to take on 80 Dendroids without losses. Unless you've done the math ahead of time and split up the Demons as pictured. Thanks to the Spirit of Opression, morale was not a question. So it's really easy for everybody to wait, then after the Dendroids move, the lesser Demons go first, soaking up retaliation. Then everybody lets them have it. Next round, everybody backs off. The lesser Demons attack as needed, but otherwise sit there and take it. Once offed, simply ressurect them (completely) and have that stack and others finish them off. Zero losses.
Or perhaps put it this way: When you're playing Necropolis, you convert Pikemen to Skeletons, right? Why? Pikemen are superior. You do this because your Skeletons have strength in numbers. Or when you play Dungeon and have flagged an external Chapel of Stilled Voices for example, you build the Portal of Summoning, right? What if doing so cost you your weekly Troglodite production? You'd probably still take it because Medusas are beefier and it would be better to have more of them than a stack of creatures that fall pretty easily.
I admit that the dogs are a tougher call. If fights permit, I usually consolidate them too and for the reasons maretti stated.
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Devangle1984
Known Hero
I am the Dark Vader
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posted February 26, 2008 11:29 PM |
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never knew 19 pits can ressurect 27 demons, but to be honest id like to have a 94 demon stack than a 67-27 split, and use 1 or 2 imps to take out retaliation, if none then just a single demon or 2
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 27, 2008 12:51 AM |
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That's the worst part about Demon farming: You have to be very familiar with the AI and how it establishes stacks and such. If you make your martyr too weak, you'll end up suffering additional losses. If you make your martyer too strong, the enemy won't fully kill them and what losses you do incur will be permanent.
Another reason why I tend to max out if I feel I can get away with it applies more to farming itself. You want your raised stack to be potent. One or two Demons won't kill four Dendroids. 27 will. In the second photo, as it was the greater Demons had to defend. Might as well give the raised stack a fighting chance. Obviously it's not critical in that picture because every single stack is faster and capable of finishing off the Dendroids themselves. Other times though, your raised stack can be very influential. And he needs to be since you're aiming for a zero loss battle.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 27, 2008 05:09 AM |
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Quote:
I've never seen the advantage of demon farming. You're basically converting 1250 gold of useless troops into 1000 gold worth of demons. Why not just spend the money on useful creatures from another town?
My current game has given me an even better way of answering this. It's week 2 day 6. I haven't purchased a single Demon, but I'm carrying 23. Add to that six Goblins and I was able to take a Serpent Fly Hive that yielded eight Wyverns with only losing eight Demons.
Considering I never purchased any Demons, those Demons started life off as 14 Goblins, four Wolf Riders, 22 Gogs, and 105 Imps. 40 came from a Diplomacy join, but I still had to pay for them. Of course, in the fights leading up to the Serpent Fly Hive, I would've lost some of those numbers. I know I did prior to having Pit Lords present. IF I would've taken that Serpent Fly Hive with that assortment, it would've all but decimated my entire force. Instead, I had 15 Demons and 8 Wyverns to show for it. I don't consider that a poor investment one bit
In the end, I was able to use those creatures to take on a Medusa Stores and even a strong Dwarven Treasury. The creatures I started off with would've been toast long ago. But I still have every Demon except the ones I traded directly for Wyverns (and more experience ).
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 27, 2008 10:37 AM |
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You should stop taking diplomacy as skill for your hero but try to it the hard way..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 27, 2008 12:21 PM |
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I know. You're right. It was fun though. Tides really turned when 40 Cyclopes joined for free. Never really played with Diplomacy before. Well I did, but I only collected like first levels and such. Also built Armor of the Damned for the first time
Let's talk secondary skills. I think it's pretty obvious that I'll want Armorer, Offense, Logistics, Wisdom, Earth Magic, Air Magic. What about the other two? I'm thinking Leadership, especially so I can mix races. What else? For a Demon farmer I mean.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 27, 2008 12:57 PM |
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Tactics of course.
Never take leadership, coz this can be done by cheap artefacts or even by visiting map objects before going into a fight. Or just take angels from conservatories into your squad.
Last skill, as usual, depends on map. On 3do maps, pathfinding is often a good skill...until u got fly/dd of course.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 27, 2008 01:51 PM |
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Well, pathfinding is good skill for almost all maps.
So the last two must be tactics and pathfind. Even though i would rather have tactics earlier - in my first skills.
The question of Demarest is wich skills are good for damon farming. And if we are talking about the damon farming itself - armorer is not the best skill. It makes your units last longer, so you may find difficulties killing some of your stacks.
For damon farming armorer must be one of the last skills. Maybe 7-th.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 27, 2008 03:17 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 15:18, 27 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
never knew 19 pits can ressurect 27 demons, but to be honest id like to have a 94 demon stack than a 67-27 split, and use 1 or 2 imps to take out retaliation, if none then just a single demon or 2
They can. Each Pit Lord may raise demons worth 50 HP. So 19*50 = 950 HP = 27.14 demons. So they can raise 27 demons (not 28 where the top unit in the stack has 5 HP; they must have full health).
The number of Pit Lords does not limit the number of demons they can raise. The only limits are the number of units and the total HP of the dead stack, i.e. the demons summoned can neither have a greater number nor a greater total HP than the dead stack originally had.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 27, 2008 06:47 PM |
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Edited by demarest at 18:51, 27 Feb 2008.
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Quote:
Never take leadership, coz this can be done by cheap artefacts or even by visiting map objects before going into a fight. Or just take angels from conservatories into your squad.
Last skill, as usual, depends on map. On 3do maps, pathfinding is often a good skill...until u got fly/dd of course.
I didn't realize Angels offset their own morale drop due to mixing factions. Interesting. I will admit that Pathfinding is the most logical extension of Logistics. I've never seen a map without any rough, lava, snow, or *shudders* swamp. Still, in the game I mentioned, I took a Dragon Fly Hive week two and still had some Stronghold fodder to convert. Without Leadership, even this early in the game, I'll either have to go without my Wyverns or risk negative morale. Which DID show up twice in one turn when I only had four stacks to begin with. Would you still say no Leadership for a Demon farmer?
I agree with Tactics. Even early, it can help make sure the enemy goes for your martyr stack and not the remainder of your fodder that will be used in subsequent battles.
Quote:
The question of Demarest is wich skills are good for damon farming. And if we are talking about the damon farming itself - armorer is not the best skill. It makes your units last longer, so you may find difficulties killing some of your stacks.
For damon farming armorer must be one of the last skills. Maybe 7-th.
In theory, I agree. However, Demons are slow. I can't picture farming without Marius's speed boost. If you got Slow or Haste in your Mage Guild, maybe. Any time I've farmed though, I've use Marius, who starts with Advanced Armorer. In practice, it's never been a problem, even with a high defense rating to accompany it.
Quote:
The number of Pit Lords does not limit the number of demons they can raise. The only limits are the number of units and the total HP of the dead stack, i.e. the demons summoned can neither have a greater number nor a greater total HP than the dead stack originally had.
To add to this, I ran a little experiment last night. At one point, I had a 12 Dendroid Soldier Diplomacy join. Good creatures but being that I was so blockaded I hadn't yet even seen a second city, and the fact that I was already mixing creatures and didn't have Leadership, I felt it was best to convert them. But they had 65 HP per unit. So would the Pit Lord's 50 HP limit per unit limit me? The answer is no! I only had enough Pit Lords to raise eight Demons, so I peeled off four Dendroid Soldiers and attacked a horde of Battle Dwarves with just eight of them. To my delight, the Pit Lords raised eight Demons from that stack! I was afraid that since my Pit Lord stack had a raise limit of 300 HP, and eight Dendroid Soldiers have 520 HPs, I'd be limited to raising just four since that would be 260 HP and within the Pit Lords' limit. But no, I got the full eight
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