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| Thread: 4th level spell heroes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 28, 2008 06:18 AM |
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4th level spell heroes
Who's your favorite 4th level spell hero? That is, heroes that begin with a 4th level spell.
If you HAD to choose between Solmyr and Deemer as your main, which would you choose? I'd probably choose Deemer because Scouting is MUCH more useful than Sorcery, Deemer starts off with the equivalent of three secondary skills instead of the usual two, and 3 power / 2 Knowledge is more my style than Solmyr's 2 power / 3 Knowledge.
An unrelated question: How come Deemer and Uland for example start with the equivalent of three secondary skills? Are there others?
Thank you for your participation.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted February 28, 2008 08:42 AM |
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to clear troops, chain is better than meteor shower.
with shower, you're probably only going to hit 1 stack, with chain, you can hit them all.
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sachelos
Known Hero
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posted February 28, 2008 10:54 AM |
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Quote:
to clear troops, chain is better than meteor shower.
with shower, you're probably only going to hit 1 stack, with chain, you can hit them all.
I dont agree  think about it: when you cast chain lightning you hit up to 5 units depending on the level of magic you are at that moment, first creature dealing full damage, second one half damage of 1st, 3rd creature half damage of the 2nd and so on. If your opponent arrange his troops so as to effect his low level creatures first no big damage is done. And often you get to hit YOUR army with that spell. It's dangerous! I prefer meteor cuz of full damage on every creature stack and more controlable, meaning you can avoid hurting your own troops!
My 2 cents..
PS: i prefer demeer rather than solmyr...everybody knows why
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 28, 2008 11:17 AM |
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1 more reason why I prefer meteor is, u hit an area with that spell. So even if 1 unit resists, u may hit all others. While on the other hand, if the unit u wanna start your chainlightning on will resist, the whole spell is wasted.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
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posted February 29, 2008 12:57 PM |
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Solmyr. 100% chance of hitting 5 stacks, and you can hit a total of more than 2000 dam. with it
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 29, 2008 01:10 PM |
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Solmyr. 100% chance of hitting 5 stacks, and you can hit a total of more than 2000 dam. with it
Maybe you think twice about those "facts" you post here. They are just not true....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
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posted February 29, 2008 01:18 PM |
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I meant if you're fighting an enemy with 5+ stacks, f.ex. late game. With MS, you might only hit one enemy in any case
And 2000 damage... once I hit 1200+600+300+150+75=2325!
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bigbadfly
Famous Hero
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posted February 29, 2008 02:45 PM |
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But it is the total... Calculate total for meteor too.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted February 29, 2008 04:20 PM |
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Edited by demarest at 16:27, 29 Feb 2008.
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With Expert Air Magic, Chain Lightning does 40*SP+100. With Exper Earth Magic, Meteor Shower does 25*SP+100. Let's assume SP of 10 for argument's sake. This means Chain Lightning does 500+250+125+62+31=968. Meteor Shower will do 350 to anywhere from one to seven stacks. In my experience, Meteor Shower hits 2-3 stacks. As soon as you hit the third, Meteor Shower is the harder hitting spell.
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that in expert conditions, Chain Lightning costs 67% more mana to cast.
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that Chain Lightning is often useful first round only, if that.
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that Chain Lightning is uncontrolable. Consider if your opponent has war machines. Will the second strike hit the war machine or a creature stack?
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that the topic wasn't asking which is the better spell, but rather which is the better hero between Deemer and Solmyr for main. I still contend it's Deemer by way of Advanced Scouting is much more useful than Sorcery and three levels of secondary skills is better than two.
[EDIT]
I think if somebody wanted to make a case for Chain Lightning being better than Meteor Shower, they would have to bring up Air Elementals. But the good debator would then point out that there's no artifact that gives creatures immunity to Meteor Shower  And before anybody brings up the red orb or the cloak, which effects both, I'm referring to the Pendant of Negativity.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 29, 2008 05:02 PM |
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On the other hand, pendant of negativity can be a bless for the caster too. In the middle of the battle, when creatures are "mixed" on the field, you can still cast chainlightning without hitting your own troops. Or cast it when opponent only has 2 or 3 stacks left....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 01, 2008 04:54 AM |
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i summon earth elementals, and chain lightning my way around them =)
yes. pendant of negativity exists for solmyr, while there is nothing for deemer.
if no heroes that are neither deemer nor solmyr. I end up using chain lightning an infinite amount of times more than shower (never user shower).
The only place i could think of using shower is at the beginning of battle and at a ranged troop and it's surroundings. (usually there is an ammo cart or a tent beside it anyway, so you WILL be hitting war machines as often as chain lightning).
scouting may be better than sorcery... but not on your main.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted March 01, 2008 08:10 AM |
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i summon earth elementals, and chain lightning my way around them
If you have summon elementals, why not summon more ellies instead of using the spell points on chain? Earth ellies like to punch and they don't like to fall down. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I think I'd much rather have a stack of earth ellies than a chain lighting.
As far as Solmyr vs Deemer. I'd much rather have Deemer for all the reasons already said. Chain is just too unreliable.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 01, 2008 01:49 PM |
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summon earth ele takes more spell pts than chain. (summoning 8 stacks of earth eles puts a big dent into my sp, even with expert intelligence.)
i especially hate how you can't choose where your elemental stack is summoned 
chain lightning after some earth eles > pure earth ele summon
with solmyr (definitely when wielding orb of firmament anyway).
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sachelos
Known Hero
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posted March 01, 2008 02:27 PM |
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hi
Hi, i just had a game last night in LRH Wizard Tournament on Closed 1 map (for knowers), and i share my opinion with u all cuz i used both Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning in final battle. My hero, Cuthbert, who had 27 Spell Power and both orbs for +50% to air and earth damage spells could make 1336 damage from Meteor and 2036 from Ch Lght. The opponent had Adela, with Spell Power 38 (  ) didnt have Ch Lgt but he had Meteor Shower. The battle was even in army meaning, aproximately same stacks of creatures for both, little diferences.
I can say i used them both and Ch Lgt won my game. The thing is to cast them properly when you really need them to help you in battle. It was damn long final battle, 1 hour i guess, but was very exciting indeed.
As long as both players had good spells i can say i was lucky cuz i learned Ch lgt, otherwise i would lost the game big time! And the surprising thing is that opponent had Pendant Of Negativy but he didnt equipped it on his hero. That was cool lol!
So ... every little damn thing matters in h3! Keep that in mind!
Regards,
sachelos
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
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posted March 02, 2008 08:00 AM |
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Quote:
With Expert Air Magic, Chain Lightning does 40*SP+100. With Exper Earth Magic, Meteor Shower does 25*SP+100. Let's assume SP of 10 for argument's sake. This means Chain Lightning does 500+250+125+62+31=968. Meteor Shower will do 350 to anywhere from one to seven stacks. In my experience, Meteor Shower hits 2-3 stacks. As soon as you hit the third, Meteor Shower is the harder hitting spell.
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that in expert conditions, Chain Lightning costs 67% more mana to cast.
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that Chain Lightning is often useful first round only, if that.
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that Chain Lightning is uncontrolable. Consider if your opponent has war machines. Will the second strike hit the war machine or a creature stack?
This doesn't take into consideration the fact that the topic wasn't asking which is the better spell, but rather which is the better hero between Deemer and Solmyr for main. I still contend it's Deemer by way of Advanced Scouting is much more useful than Sorcery and three levels of secondary skills is better than two.
[EDIT]
I think if somebody wanted to make a case for Chain Lightning being better than Meteor Shower, they would have to bring up Air Elementals. But the good debator would then point out that there's no artifact that gives creatures immunity to Meteor Shower And before anybody brings up the red orb or the cloak, which effects both, I'm referring to the Pendant of Negativity.
Nope, CL can often be useful in later rounds. And while you have to be lucky to hit 2-3 stacks, CL will always hit 5.
Yes, CL costs more, but Sol has Archmages and stuff. And with WoG their commamder has mysticysm.Plus in all my ;ife I've known Wizards to have hundreds of mana.
And CL is not uncontrollable. If you just count the hexes between targets, and take the right course of action. If your first spelll hits war machines, your second spell won't. Just hang back and shoot.
And about the best hero... Scouting could be useful in the beginning, but unless you have WoG-Market of Time, you will have it forever...ugh. And sorcery increases the power of your CL.
At the start post you said SP was more your style. I'd just like to point out that in early game, K is more useful, especially with heavy-mana spells. Imagine a fight with 10 spell points, gets you nowhere.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 02, 2008 08:40 AM |
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if the units are the same number of hexes apart, is there a way to tell if the lightning goes up, down, left, or right or which diagonal?
knowing will be useful to know which chain of targets it bounces to (so you don't hit 1 of theirs and 4 of yours instead of hitting all 5 of theirs).
CL is useful or solmyr too... esp with golems. good lightning absorbers if you absolutely HAVE to have one of your stacks get hit.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 02, 2008 10:08 AM |
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Edited by demarest at 10:09, 02 Mar 2008.
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Excellent discussion!
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CL is useful or solmyr too... esp with golems. good lightning absorbers if you absolutely HAVE to have one of your stacks get hit.
A fine point indeed.
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Nope, CL can often be useful in later rounds.
I myself have never cast it more than twice in a single battle because by then, troops were too mixed. Though angelito's point as well as using creatures that are immune to it would eliminate that.
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And while you have to be lucky to hit 2-3 stacks, CL will always hit 5.
That it always hits a set number of targets is also part of its downfall. Besides that, it doesn't hit the units evenly. Which means in my experience, it's only really been useful late game in battling scouts as they usually have a few stacks to deter hit and runs.
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Yes, CL costs more, but Sol has Archmages and stuff.
A fine point as well. Even with Mages though, it still costs 50% more.
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And CL is not uncontrollable. If you just count the hexes between targets, and take the right course of action. If your first spelll hits war machines, your second spell won't. Just hang back and shoot.
It IS uncontrollable. If two targets are the same distance away, which will be hit? You don't know and you can't control it. Also, the second casting not hitting war machines A) doesn't change the fact that it did in the first casting, B) assumes the first casting destroyed it. Not always the case. Finally, C) assumes you will be able to cast it a second time. Not always the case.
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And about the best hero... Scouting could be useful in the beginning, but unless you have WoG-Market of Time, you will have it forever...ugh. And sorcery increases the power of your CL.
Sorcery only enhances direct damage. It has no other influence in the game. In that capacity, it's focus is too limited to justify the use of a secondary skill slot in my opinion. It's true that Scouting is useless once the shroud is removed. Until then, it can be of assistance. Don't forget too that we're talking ADVANCED Scouting versus Basic Sorcery.
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At the start post you said SP was more your style. I'd just like to point out that in early game, K is more useful, especially with heavy-mana spells. Imagine a fight with 10 spell points, gets you nowhere.
That's a matter of taste. More knowledge lets you cast more between refills while spell power makes the castings you DO have more potent. Since you're talking about the start of the game, Solmyr's 30 spell points isn't enough to cast either spell in question twice. So if you can only cast it once per refill, why not make it more potent? I don't deny that knowledge is useful as well. Just if we're talking about five points, I'd rather it be 3 SP / 2 K.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 09:37 AM |
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it doesn't matter if it's advanced scouting vs basic sorcery.
in the end battle it's going to be expert scouting vs expert sorcery.
and we definitely know which one is more useful for deemer/solmyr.
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 03:49 PM |
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Who's your favorite 4th level spell hero? That is, heroes that begin with a 4th level spell.
It is almost cheating, but ... Alamar  Forget Solmyr.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 07:54 PM |
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I prefer Jeddite over Alamar. I'd rather have Advanced Wisdom than Scholar. But yes, starting with Ressurection, especially in a town whose 7th level creature is NOT immune to it (before upgrade) is handy. I'm surprised we haven't received any votes for Loynis either.
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