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| Thread: 4th level spell heroes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 03, 2008 11:08 PM |
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Alamar is by far the better choice.
Both are no serious choices for main heroes. But having scholar on a guy who has resurrection spell is very usefull for your possible main. Because wisdom is a skill EVERY hero will get offered several times during his level up, while scholar may never occur.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ruho
Hired Hero
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posted March 03, 2008 11:27 PM |
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Quote:
ElectricBunny wrote:
Nope, CL can often be useful in later rounds. And while you have to be lucky to hit 2-3 stacks, CL will always hit 5.
1.CL WON'T ALWAYS hit 5 targets. If first/second/... stack resists the spell it won't jump to next anymore. That's a disadvantage compared to MS and mentioned earlier. Also Cl has to be casted at least with advanced Air Magic to get five targets. Not to forget artifacts, immunities...
2. Those 5 hits may also mean own troops. And if you'll try to get those 5 hits to yuor opponent's troops you often can't make the first hit the stack which "needs" it most.
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Yes, CL costs more, but Sol has Archmages and stuff. And with WoG their commamder has mysticysm.Plus in all my ;ife I've known Wizards to have hundreds of mana.
1. If u didn't know, heroes won't get any disadvantages when using
non-native army (if all units same alignment). So playing Soly doesn't automagically mean that you have (Arch)Mages. As well you could play Deemer with Tower army.
2.This is H3-forum, WoG has it's own.
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And CL is not uncontrollable. If you just count the hexes between targets, and take the right course of action. If your first spelll hits war machines, your second spell won't. Just hang back and shoot.
 Somehow this sounds like you could just chill and cast spells every now and then, waiting for enemy to reach your troops.
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At the start post you said SP was more your style. I'd just like to point out that in early game, K is more useful, especially with heavy-mana spells. Imagine a fight with 10 spell points, gets you nowhere.
Well, having more Knowledge to cast more spells may sound good on paper, but those Knowledge points means less Spell Power, which means less efficient spells. And, at least, when trying to beat might heroes with magic ones, you must have as efficient spell(s) as possible to be able to destroy opponent's troops in time.
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hobowu wrote:
it doesn't matter if it's advanced scouting vs basic sorcery.
in the end battle it's going to be expert scouting vs expert sorcery.
and we definitely know which one is more useful for deemer/solmyr.
Well if you just think about the end battle, then Logistics would also be useless. Scouting could mean, for example, that you'll notice some SP-raising artifact on your way to opponent, you otherwise wouldn't.
And I don't think it's gonna be expert vs expert that often at end fight since you want to develope some more useful secondary skills and high lvl heroes (high secondary skills) doesn't favor magic ones.
@Demarest: I guess he meant Alamar as a scholar, who teaches that Resurrection to some useful hero.
And then to the guestion itself 
Overall Deemer:
-Higher SP
-MS works better vs maps (cheaper, can also help in banks)
-...and usually in main fight too
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 03:05 AM |
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Quote:
1. If u didn't know, heroes won't get any disadvantages when using
non-native army (if all units same alignment). So playing Soly doesn't automagically mean that you have (Arch)Mages. As well you could play Deemer with Tower army.
Excellent counterpoint. In fact, that's exactly the condition I arrived upon that made me post this thread. I chose full random and started with Tower and a crap hero. As I began buying heroes, I chose to go with Solmyr. Not a good main, but you don't always find your main week 1 and he really was the best I had. Day 2, I had to buy another hero and that's when I saw Deemer was available for hire.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 11:55 AM |
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Quote:
it doesn't matter if it's advanced scouting vs basic sorcery.
in the end battle it's going to be expert scouting vs expert sorcery.
and we definitely know which one is more useful for deemer/solmyr.
Well if you just think about the end battle, then Logistics would also be useless. Scouting could mean, for example, that you'll notice some SP-raising artifact on your way to opponent, you otherwise wouldn't.
And I don't think it's gonna be expert vs expert that often at end fight since you want to develope some more useful secondary skills and high lvl heroes (high secondary skills) doesn't favor magic ones.
thing is, log actually helps the main move further, while scouting is better delegated to a scout. (hence the skill name! )
better to have a scout run up ahead, and main follow.
solmyr is actually used more as a scout than as a main, solly carrying some troops can clear some mines and resources quite well.
deemer is usually used as neither
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ruho
Hired Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 03:24 PM |
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Quote:
solmyr is actually used more as a scout than as a main, solly carrying some troops can clear some mines and resources quite well.
deemer is usually used as neither
Yes I know.
Quote:
thing is, log actually helps the main move further, while scouting is better delegated to a scout. (hence the skill name! )
better to have a scout run up ahead, and main follow.
I was rather pointing that of course it's obvious that Sorcery helps more in the main battle but it's difficult to estimate which helps more in the whole game.
Scouting with scouts would be, of course, more ideal situation but if you have to have that Scouting on your main it may even be pretty helpful since later in the game you tend to outrun your scouts, even if they were Scoutscouts .
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 06:34 PM |
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I disagree that Sorcery helps in a main fight. Again, Sorcery only influences direct damage. Direct damage is helpful in the early game. Later on though, spells are more useful as aides in battle and not direct damage. For example, mass Bless even will give you more damage output than the extra 15% on an Implosion.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 02:13 PM |
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orb of silt + expert earth + expert sorcery + magic power arties (i think it's the titan's cuircass which is the sexy one) + implosion = mega ouch.
I've brought down 8000+ damage implosions before, (that's 32+ archangels!)
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ruho
Hired Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 04:28 PM |
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Quote:
I disagree that Sorcery helps in a main fight. Again, Sorcery only influences direct damage. Direct damage is helpful in the early game. Later on though, spells are more useful as aides in battle and not direct damage. For example, mass Bless even will give you more damage output than the extra 15% on an Implosion.
Well, the topic was about Deemer & Solmyr. If you are going to win the endfight with them relying on army boosting spells you can as well concede right away
And the comparision of the 15% bonus to Implosion vs mass Bless makes no sense at all.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 08:15 PM |
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Quote:
And the comparision of the 15% bonus to Implosion vs mass Bless makes no sense at all.
Might you mean that you don't understand the comparison and would like a little clarification or elaboration?
Context/subject/point/thesis: Sorcery, due to it's limited influence of direct damage only, is not a worthwhile secondary skill.
Explanation/Synopsis: In the beginning of the game, direct damage can be helpful because the amount of damage you can inflict with a spell is s conspicuous percentage of the health of the creatures you're fighting against. However, its usefulness, in terms of relying on it so heavily as to reserve a secondary skill for the enhancement of the same, diminishes in time. Considering an end fight, mass Bless (as an example) will cause your troops, in ONE turn, to do more damage than Sorcery would add even to Implosion. That same Bless will stay with your army for several turns. Meanwhile, the secondary skill that made this possible was not Sorcery, but Expert Water. Expert Water is NOT limited to enhancing JUST direct damage. It can enhance spells such as Bless, Cure, Dispel, and Prayer to effect your entire party. It can help Hypnotize rob all archer classes of their ranged attack. It can Teleport your creatures even onto the other side of siege walls. It can allow your Clone to copy even your seventh level creature. Which used properly will do as much damage as the Expert Sorceried Implosion would've, while also drawing enemy fire.
Conclusion: Raw damage is not where magic bests assists a hero. Even in terms of raw damage alone, a mass Bless will increase your damage output more than Sorcery will on Implosion. Therefore, a person would be better suited with Expert Water Magic than Sorcery as Expert Water Magic will give you the same increased damage output, but also assist in a variety of ways, all of which can assist a hero throughout every stage of the game.
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ruho
Hired Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 11:05 PM |
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Edited by ruho at 22:34, 06 Mar 2008.
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Er, my bad. I guess I didn't think it as a Water Magic vs Sorcery situation.
Oh, and my intention never was to defend Sorcery. It's a sucky skill.
Quote:
Direct damage is helpful in the early game.
Yeah, the trend is simple: the smaller armies are, the better damage spells are. But the limit where it turns to on mass spells edge is pretty unclear. Multiplayer games' end fights usually happens week 3-4. By that time Implosion is still huge: it can not only compare with the damage bonus from mass bless, but after imploding enemy's powerstack u are also safe from it's damage. So direct damage can be deadly in late game too, but you can't count on it.
And for the magic heroes, explaining my previous post, it's the only reasonable method (though I haven't made nor seen testing about might vs magic with Summon X Elemental. Mights prolly better with this too). Why? Because if your opponent is might and you cast your army boosting spell, let's say mass Bless, and your opponent casts the same spell, then who do think has the edge? No matter what beneficial / detrimental spells u keep casting if they are not damage spells the might hero has the edge simply casting the same (though he'll prolly won't do it but rather casts mass Haste/Slow and crushes the opponent).
My point wasn't to praise the damage spells, but to point out that mass spells aren't always better in end fight. I hardly ever use *damage spells myself.
Edit: *Fixed 'them' to 'damage spells', to correct the false impression that I would prefer damage spells over mass spells.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 06, 2008 06:47 AM |
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Hmm. I guess I just always saw spells as being more useful against other heroes when used to enhance, debilitate, or alter the battlefield rather than just shaving a number off of a stack or two.
Quote:
So direct damage can be deadly in late game too, but you can't count on it.
That's where I'm coming from. There's no question that Implosion leaves a mark. As does Armageddon. Neither are easy to get. Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning are easier to get, but not as effective later in the game.
I'm not putting down direct damage either. An Arrow wielding scout makes a difference. In the middle game, even Lightning Bolt can make a dent. It's just that as I try to evolve as a player, I prefer to look more towards spells of influence than direct damage.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted March 07, 2008 07:53 AM |
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I must admit that i use direct damage spells quite rarely.
i mostly use mass resurrection... (i usually have high enough power to make it useful).
for medium sized maps, an implo makes a HUGE difference in final battle, especially if you are sieging them, and they have a stack of very very strong shooters hiding inside, and you aren't willing to send your flyers in to get decimated. In large maps, it's not so good anymore as monster stacks are so powerful that 8000 damage really isn't that...
as for that water magic thing, you'd be using an extra skill slot for water magic. are you willing to waste a skill slot on expert water? i'd take expert earth and expert air over expert water anyday, (although i won't underestimate the usefulness of mass bless and mass cure, and in any case, expert water definitely better than expert fire, unless you are playing adrienne, cos her armas HURT!)
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 07, 2008 10:07 AM |
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There's no question that Earth is best with Air being a close second. I don't find any magic school to be useless. While I agree with you that Water is better than Fire, I am a sucker for Expert Berserk.
Say you're playing Fortress. Based on what I've read on these boards, it's just assumed you'll take Water Magic for the purpose of Teleporting your Chaos Hydras.
I still haven't decided about the magics. I agree that you probably don't want three schools on your main. But it's not uncommon for me to be offered Water first. I've just started accepting it simply because I never have and I'd like to see what I'm missing. One time I was Demon farming and being able to clone a stack of 100 Demons week 3 was very helpful. Oh and thanks to my profound attachment to Luna, I've always had a thing for Advanced Forgetfulness as well.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 07, 2008 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
One time I was Demon farming and being able to clone a stack of 100 Demons week 3 was very helpful.
No water magic needed to be able to clone creatures from level 1 to 5.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 07, 2008 08:36 PM |
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Earth Magic isn't required for Slow to slow down a unit's speed. Stating something that the game itself will tell you would not indicate to anybody what my point is in stating such. And if I don't make my point, then I've accomplished nothing with my post. By all means make your point if you have one.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 07, 2008 09:23 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 21:24, 07 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
But it's not uncommon for me to be offered Water first. I've just started accepting it simply because I never have and I'd like to see what I'm missing. One time I was Demon farming and being able to clone a stack of 100 Demons week 3 was very helpful.
This was your statement dear professional. But your demon cloning has nothing to do with accepting water magic because u don't need watermagic to be able to clone demons (MY point!) So what is yours?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 07, 2008 09:47 PM |
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Are you capable of understanding that two sentences can represent two separate ideas?
"I've just started accepting it simply because I never have and I'd like to see what I'm missing." This is a true statement.
"One time I was Demon farming and being able to clone a stack of 100 Demons week 3 was very helpful." This is a true statement.
More importantly, they are both true independent of the other. And neither suggests I'm oblivious of what everybody with a right mouse button already knows.
In order to correct somebody, you need to say something different than they did. I feel like I have to teach a grown man basic speech.
You could also expand your mind and realize that if a spell is useful at its basic level, how much more useful is it at increased levels?
As before, your point is unclear. Make it if you have one.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 07, 2008 10:59 PM |
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So there is a discussion about what magic schools one should take, and it comes to water magic.....and then all of a sudden u mention Clone spell and cloning a level 4 unit, but it has NOTHING to do with chosing water magic?
Don't you think you make fun out yourself now? Can't you just say things like "oops, right, was my bad" or something like that? No...you (again) have to turn things around so it fits into your shoes. Dead end.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 08, 2008 02:33 AM |
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Quote:
Can't you just say things like "oops, right, was my bad" or something like that?
nope
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The empty set
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 08, 2008 05:34 AM |
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Edited by demarest at 05:35, 08 Mar 2008.
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Hope you guys are in the mood for apologizing:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=23122&pagenumber=11
The first two posts on the page that were made by me both take responsiblity for something I did wrong. The second was even of an issue that was already settled and in the past. Nevertheless, it was my fault and I did the honorable thing and took credit.
Unlike angelito who, when caught in an error, attempts to obfuscate the topic at hand. The irony being that he accuses me of something that has never been true of me but continues to be true of him even as he makes the accusation.
@angelito: In order for me to admit I made a mistake, I'd have to have made a mistake. In this case, that means I would've had to have been unaware of how basic Clone functions. But anybody who's ever received it in a level 3 Guild Mage, a white Magic Srine, or on a scroll already knows this from right clicking on it.
No, your ego is bruised because you tried to pull this same attack the little guy antics in the other thread and not only did I not crack under your pressure, but I was able to pinpoint every single such antic you attempted and continue to attempt. My advice is to drop it. You're a grown man and life is too short for grudges. Play nice.
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