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| Thread: Being a bad player... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Riotlung
Tavern Dweller
A Royal Pain
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posted March 04, 2008 05:59 AM |
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Edited by Riotlung at 10:08, 04 Mar 2008.
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Being a bad player...
I've been playing Heroes III for years now. Well, I spent a lot of time on the map editor and churning out maps and campaigns that did not involve that much strategy and tactics as a full multiplayer game (and I did have a LOT of fun conjuring those maps up). However, I've always wanted to get around playing the campaign, which I've always found too difficult. I have Heroes III Complete (which means difficulty can be toggled, but only for SOD campaigns) and I'm still struggling with ROE. How is it that you guys get so good that ROE becomes so easy while SOD becomes challenging only at Expert or Impossible levels?
I understand and do apply basic skills like chaining, but I always have the habit of holding back to get more comfortable troop strength. The enemy, however, always seems to pull out an army much bigger than mine. The final battle was almost always mine to lose in some of the missions.
For instance, I'm now trying out Liberation ROE campaign (I've only completed Long Live The Queen) and I'm on the scenario where I need to capture a certain town where King Roland is held. I started with a Rampart and 2 Castles, and I have about 7 heroes running around, though only 2 mains (since the Castles and the Rampart were separated from each other). My Castles have gotten up to upgraded jousting grounds, so I have several Champions in my Castle main (who is ironically Elegar the Druid, who has Advanced Earth. Trying to get it to Expert for the ever-desirable Mass Slow).
I've taken the nearest fortless Inferno town (which is not able to build much) and used it to keep my Druid full of spell points and hold the area. My Rampart, however, is not faring so well.
I've gotten unupgraded Dragon Cliffs, but any Green Dragons that I managed to pull out and placed with my Rampart main always get wiped out in a single big battle against Inferno forces. I always get attacked by 13 Efreets and a couple of Devils which doesn't seem like a lot, but with my army strength, I could barely win the fights. I did manage to get a Cloak Of Velocity from a hero, which was really good, but I had to retreat because a second hero with a big army followed up on the attack and I wanted to keep the Cape. The Rampart main was Mephala.
Why am I running into problems like these? Now, they just wiped out my Rampart main and have an army complete with a few Archdevils and several Efreet Sultans marching on my defenceless Rampart, drained of its population. It's only day 3 of the week.
Is there something fundamentally wrong with the way I play? What advice can you give to people who are still "newbies" (in skill level, though I've been playing the game since 1999, stopping every now and then with a different game)?
Edit: I've finally beaten that scenario, after a whopping 5 months of losing and recapturing the same few towns. Finally, it got into a stalemate with us just building up our forces to wicked amounts. However, I had a fully built rampart, and 2 fully built castles. Using chain, I managed to get my forces to my 2 main heroes within 3 days. After gathering and combining my forces, I stormed the last Inferno town with nearly 1000 Halberdiers, 22 Archangels and 18 Gold Dragons, with 300+ royal griffins, you get the idea. I'm now on the next scenario requiring me to stop the fighting between Tatalia and Krewlod. They should be fighting amongst themselves, so if I were to bide my time and build up...
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"I will destroy their minds and burn their bodies." -Librarian, Dawn Of War
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 04, 2008 02:33 PM |
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Don't wait too long. Try to rush the computer player. Build for dwellings, not for money. Avoid losses in fights vs neutral creatures by using single units as fodder in your fights. Don't go into (difficult) fights with your whole army! Have a follow up guy near your main, who takes army u don't need for a fight, so u can split them on your main hero's slots. Be more confident about your troops. Several cavaliers/champions are a hugh power. You can wipe out a lot of troops with them.
The longer you wait, the stronger the computer player will become.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Riotlung
Tavern Dweller
A Royal Pain
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posted March 04, 2008 03:35 PM |
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It's sad that I always feel that I'm not confident when my troops have not hit level 7 upgraded. But for some reason, once I hit it, the computer is knocking at my door with perhaps less upgraded armies, but much bigger numbers.
I'm still pretty slow on the next scenario, but I'm running around 2 big heroes (the biggest being a level 10 Solemyr with Expert Air and 14 Titans) and capturing towns around. The swamp terrain is a big problem, however, and I have not found anybody with pathfinding. I have a Wizard stocked with a lot of Castle troops (300+ halberdiers) to hold the Castle town in front of the first garrison. It's only a matter of time before I nail those pesky heroes down...
Thanks for the advice. So that means...
You usually have 1 main hero, with a support hero holding on to excess troops (and probably having the army sizeable enough to take on most threats) as well as a line of squires around somewhere to reinforce, right?
It took me a good while to finally decide that the Wizard with Castle troops was good enough to stand on her own, so I turned her from a troop gatherer (running between 2 Castle towns, getting troops, upgrading cavaliers for free at the external Stables and visiting windmills) into a main hero and sent her out to garrison the Castle town in the swamps. The enemy doesn't want to be around that town, though I still fear they might run through the garrisons and into the grassy area to take my nearly unguarded Castle towns. I only have 2 main heroes and I'm not fortunate enough to get Expert Earth and Town Portal (which does indeed nearly win you the game) but I can't hold so many areas and go attacking at the same time...
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"I will destroy their minds and burn their bodies." -Librarian, Dawn Of War
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 04, 2008 04:13 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 16:18, 04 Mar 2008.
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Buy as many heroes as possible. Try to set up a chain, so you could transport all your troops from one edge to the other in 1 or maximum 2 turns.
No need to wait until u got level 7 troops to proceed and go for opponent.
You can fight crypts day 1 or day 2, u can fight naga banls early week 2 with several champs.
This way u have enough money to build more dwellings and buy more troops.
Try to get the following skills with your main:
logistics, tactics, artillery (and a ballista!!), pathfinding, earth/air, offense, armorer.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted March 04, 2008 04:33 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 16:34, 04 Mar 2008.
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Also, main hero at level 10 at same time you got titans doesn't sound good. You should hit level 10 much earlier.
You should be level 10 very early in the game, not at the time you get 14 titans which is prolly week 8 or so.
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Fal
Hired Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 05:56 PM |
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It sounds obvious to me that your problem is that you are not playing fast enough, being slow is a major killer in almost all Heroes 3 maps. Take Gem's SoD campaigns for example, if you play it on expert/impossible levels you will have to take out most nearby netural creatures with your starting troops. If you speed up the pace you'd find AI not as tough as you'd imagined.
Be decisive, make clear goals, don't give your opponent chance to develop their towns/armies.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 04, 2008 06:30 PM |
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Quote:
Don't go into (difficult) fights with your whole army! Have a follow up guy near your main, who takes army u don't need for a fight, so u can split them on your main hero's slots.
This is the first time I've heard of anything like this. Can you be more specific or give an example?
Quote:
You can fight crypts day 1 or day 2, u can fight naga banls early week 2 with several champs.
?! I don't know of any town that can handle a Naga Bank week 2. What would the troops look like and what would the strategy be?
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted March 04, 2008 06:53 PM |
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Quote:
what would the strategy be?
Severe AI abuse.
I don't know h3 so well but the same things are possible in h5...it's a nice leg up.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 04, 2008 07:24 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 19:24, 04 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't go into (difficult) fights with your whole army! Have a follow up guy near your main, who takes army u don't need for a fight, so u can split them on your main hero's slots.
This is the first time I've heard of anything like this. Can you be more specific or give an example?
Different reasons:
1. The stronger you are, the lesser stacks the computer creates. Fighting vs 1 big stack of sturdy monster is a tough thing, especially early on, when u do not have mass slow or else which helps. It is much easier to handle 5-7 stacks of packs, than 1 stack of horde/throng. So u only take the army into fight u need to win it without big losses. Which army that is, depends on neutral creatures of course.
2. If u face fast (flying) creatures, it would be a big fault to take shooters with you, coz they will prolly all die round 1. Example: Your (full) army consist of bunch of pikemen, marksmen, griffins, and several swordsmen, monks and 4 angels. You face several gold dragons. If u go into that fight with your full army, you will prolly face 2 stacks (of 3 for example). Those Goldies ahve first turn...First stack attacks marksmen...most of them dead...second stack attacks either monks or pikers...many dead aswell. Both shooters blocked probably when it is your turn. Now what? No matter which of your units will attack first, it will recieve big loss on retail. Same goes for second stack of goldies.
To prevent your army from loosing all these troops, you just dont take all of them into the fight! Just take the angels and 6 single pikers (it helps if your main is a might guy with offense and maybe armorer...). Now u will probably face 5 or 6 stacks of goldies (every stack consist of 1 dragon, or 1 of them has 2 dragons). The dragons will go for your single pikers first round of course. 4 angels should be able to deal 250 damage if u have offense. So they can kill 1 stack each turn. With haste, shield or cure, they won't suffer 200 damage, therefore no angel will be lost. Be sure to keep your angel on the edge of the battelefield, so u can only get attacked by 3 dragons inbetween 1 round (for example: angels is placed on the very left top corner of the field: 1 gold attacks, gets killed by retail, next attacks from front, 3rd from bottom. No more room for attack). Now u will loose 6 single pikemen get your reward, your exp.points, and only keep the angels at the end of the turn to maximize your speed for the next day.
Quote:
Quote:
You can fight crypts day 1 or day 2, u can fight naga banks early week 2 with several champs.
?! I don't know of any town that can handle a Naga Bank week 2. What would the troops look like and what would the strategy be?
Same as above. 1 powerstack, maybe 1 big stack of shooters and rest is single level 1 units.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Garamoth
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 05, 2008 03:27 AM |
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Usually, on most campaign maps the computer starts with more towns than you do and often with easier access to resources/mines. So it seems to me that the more time passes, the bigger the computer's advantage.
Stealing a town from the enemy in the first weeks is a double advantage, since he loses gold and you get more. So it's important to use troops as soon as they become effective. I know it's a lot "nicer" to use a full town army with all upgrades, but a mismatched rabble can be just as effective and a lot faster to set up.
That reminds me of the map against the necromancers where you start with 35 griffins/golems/elves. You can just attack with those 35 elves and crush the computer in less than a month. :-)
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 10:56 AM |
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The main problem is probably that you choose the wrong heroes and the wrong skills. You should go with might heroes and skills like artillery, logistics, offence, armor, tactics, earth and air magic and wisdom.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Riotlung
Tavern Dweller
A Royal Pain
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posted March 05, 2008 11:38 AM |
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I'm on the final Liberation scenario now. I'm almost hitting month 2 and I'm not wandering the dungeons yet. I guess I'll take my Castle town hero and go down, and probably complete with a scout (who true enough, has Advanced Scouting). The map difficulty is now Hard, not Normal. I'll try to be fast...
Thanks guys!
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"I will destroy their minds and burn their bodies." -Librarian, Dawn Of War
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 12:20 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
?! I don't know of any town that can handle a Naga Bank week 2. What would the troops look like and what would the strategy be?
Same as above. 1 powerstack, maybe 1 big stack of shooters and rest is single level 1 units.
I must be doing it wrong then. I've tried this before and it doesn't work for me. Average of 330+ HP per stack with no retaliation? I just can't get them all in time. Care to elaborate?
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ruho
Hired Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 04:16 PM |
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Quote:
I must be doing it wrong then. I've tried this before and it doesn't work for me. Average of 330+ HP per stack with no retaliation? I just can't get them all in time. Care to elaborate?
5 * 2 Naga Banks are trivial with several Cavalier/Champion & fodder.
5 * 3 is tougher case since your Champion powerstack won't kill them with single bow (unless huge stats or with spells (Bless, direct damage)) so you'll need for example Marksmen stack to finish them. Then you need some fast fodder (Pixies are optimal) to lure the right side Nagas so that you can take care of the left side stacks and to scatter the rest 3 stacks a bit so you can take them out without getting attacked (only in retalation) by them. You'll prolly have to sacrfice all the fodder in the end by doing so because of the "high" speed of Nagas)
With lots of creatures (5 * 4 or 5 * 6 ) you want mass Slow to do it. With it it's fairly simple, but this time you need to use single fodder to take off the retalation too. This time you don't want to sacrifice them for just luring (don't need because of low Naga speed), but for taking the retalation. With nice hero/army 5 * 4 can prolly be done the same way as the 5 * 3.
Please note that those methods involing luring all highly risky without Spirit of Oppression, because of morale. Killing with just single blow is much more safe.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted March 05, 2008 04:21 PM |
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Quote:
The main problem is probably that you choose the wrong heroes and the wrong skills. You should go with might heroes and skills like artillery, logistics, offence, armor, tactics, earth and air magic and wisdom.
While your suggestion might help in making it easier, campaign scenarios are not that hard and it might be better to use the skills the player simply likes to play with.
Even full magic heroes should have no problems with the campaigns, especially the RoE ones which are quite easy.
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Riotlung
Tavern Dweller
A Royal Pain
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posted March 05, 2008 06:02 PM |
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It's not very encouraging hearing someone say it's easy. I'm trying to work on my speed, which seems to be a major factor for why I'm having so much difficulty. Just when I'm deciding to explore the dungeons, I decided to upgrade my troops once more at the Hill Fort. But it's a long way to the Hill Fort and before I'm back, an enemy hero pops out of the Sub Gates! Astral finished him off pretty quickly though, fortunately. Or I think he fled after losing the battle, before I could finish his creatures off.
Speed. Speed. I need speed.
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"I will destroy their minds and burn their bodies." -Librarian, Dawn Of War
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 08:03 PM |
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Thank you, Ruho. My only question is: What if you don't have mass Slow?
One time I was using a small stack of Demons with Marius. After dealing with the left stacks, I ended up using Teleport so I could wait and strike twice. The Demons got morale, so it ended up being three strikes and I only lost what I went in to lose 
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ruho
Hired Hero
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posted March 05, 2008 11:31 PM |
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Np.
If no mass Slow, then you need something special to be able to do it week 2. At least I have't figured other all around method.
That special could be, for example, Shakti with nice troglo-powerstack. Preferably with Bless. Or other stack with huge damage (via external dwellings, Portal of summoning, Pandora's Box). In rich maps, Jebus Cross-template for example, you may end up with nice L7 powerstack which could do the job with some help of spells. Maybe Devils/Archdevils could hit and run them. Forcefield could do the trick on some rare conditions (preferably with Tower: Master Gremlins & Master Genie and a Magi to lower the spellcost). Never tried that on Naga Banks.
Overall 5 * 6 is VERY difficulty to do it without mass Slow week 2. Oh, and note that on snow terrain all sizes are much harder. Sucks for Tower.
Nice trick with the Teleport. Though, it's pretty rare to get do to something like that since you don't want Wisdom that early and thus don't have Teleport even if you found it from scroll/shrine.
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demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 06, 2008 06:40 AM |
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Yeah. There's been times I've passed up Wisdom just because it was too soon.
In my future games, I'll try breaking Naga Banks sooner. What about Griffin Conservatories and Dwarven Treasuries?
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted March 06, 2008 09:54 AM |
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Makes us become you 
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Dreaming of a Better World
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