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| Thread: Doomforge's Balanced Duel Project |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 03:36 PM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 25 Mar 2008. |
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Doomforge's Balanced Duel Project
CURRENT VERSION: 1.01 - get it HERE
I have been planning this for a long time and I think it's time to start collecting the feedback 
Since not all of the guys are interested in exploring the map every time and just want to do some realistic battling (not the pitiful excuse for a battle that the duelmode offers us), I decided to make a realistic pack of heroes, like you would normally have around week 5 on a rich map like hg.
At first I wanted to use the duel preset editor, but this thing is a bad joke (peek here if you wish to see why). So I decided to do this the old fashioned way - by creating a map with set heroes, standing in a line, ready to take each other. Yeah, poor excuse of a duel, but because of Nival's "excellent" idea of limitations, the duel mode is worthless anyway.
It would look like this:
In other words, amateurish way of implementing a REAL duel mode into the game.
Rules
You have all eight heroes, and the opponent has the same set. You can battle whichever hero you want. This one is for pure battling joy, maybe for trick-testing. The heroes are level 25.
Armies
The heroes have what they should have after 5 weeks with one castle, no losses to creeps assumed. Since starting heroes have a lot of tier 1 and some tier2 creatures, the numbers of those are boosted by a 2x population and 1x population each. It assumes you've built dwellings level 1-4 and a citadel in first week, dwellings 5-7 and a castle at second week and continued to recruit creatures until week five with no week of plague ever happening. It's assumed that you've built the associated horde buildings the same week as the dwelling. Except dragon vault, since it never happens in real game anyway, but I decided to include it in third week, so it provides extra +2 dragons. I've picked the alternatives which are preffered by the community (ok, this one was hard since some are equally useful, but I had to choose so don't bash me ). Bonus creatures coming from racials included.
Heroes
The most popular, I'd say.
Haven: Vittorio
Academy: Undecided yet
Dungeon: Sinitar
Inferno: Grok or Deleb, undecided yet
Necro: undecided
Sylvan: ossir (since wyngaal seems banned a lot of time)
Fortress: Ingvar
barb: undecided
I'd like to have a little help here Btw I want these to represent the most popular strategies. So the warlock should be a common spellslinger with part of his army sacrificed for artifacts (nobody uses minos anyway so their equivalent in gold will be used for basic arties like phoenix cape and emerald slippers), and the ranger would be the common lightmagic first turn oriented heavy striker. Experienced players do not need my kind of test maps anyway, so no loss 
Artifacts
I'm not sure whether to give those guys a good set of arties (excluding the redundant stuff like staff of nether/ring of speed which wouldn't work cause everybody would need it to make it balanced) or to drop the artifacts totally excluding the minor and most useful ones like emerald slippers for warlock. So tell me what would be better
Racials
Racials are of course implemented.
Haven: +5 extra paladins/champs and -5 brutes. Not sure what number should I use, yet.
Academy: Titans and some other stacks artificed. Tell me which and what mini-arties should they wield.
Dungeon: no brainer
Inferno: no brainer
necropolis: Bonus units included
Sylvan: Tiers 3-4-5 on avenger list (both sides will have a sylvan town. I have no clue how to make all of the tier 3-5 creatures already included on the town's avenger guild, so if any mapmaker knows, just tell me :-X0
Fortress: no brainer
Barbs: Barb town included so they have a level of bloodrage similar to the one they have in reality. maybe even two to make it more realistic.
So far that's all. Any questions/ideas - just tell me what you want. Remember I want to make it as close to a medium-level week5 battle as possible so balance suggestions are especially valuable
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Drunk_Lord
Known Hero
very happy hero :)
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posted March 20, 2008 03:42 PM |
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Seems nice 
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Sargeras
Known Hero
the Fallen
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posted March 20, 2008 03:48 PM |
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...yes, great idea  ; and i have suggestion for heroes to use:
Academy - Jhora
Inferno - Grok (not Deleb)
Necro - Naadir
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Now they shall be consumed by the very flame they sought to control...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2008 07:11 PM |
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Quote:
Artifacts
I'm not sure whether to give those guys a good set of arties (excluding the redundant stuff like staff of nether/ring of speed which wouldn't work cause everybody would need it to make it balanced) or to drop the artifacts totally excluding the minor and most useful ones like emerald slippers for warlock. So tell me what would be better
Fascinating project. I think you should give them a range of minor artifacts, and try to find something that suites their needs without being über imba.
What about skills - can we suggest skill builds for the different hero classes?
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 07:26 PM |
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well of course!
Right now I have the following in mind:
Knight: most likely a light/dark hybrid with flaming arrow ballista and of course attack skill. That gives the chance to utilize both ways and may be good for testing whether dark or light works better in certain matchups ah, the educational value.
Inferno: Dark magic, counterspell and attack. Those three work well together.
Academy: Academy will suffer from fixed magic school choice a bit, because choices vary for every matchup, well I think summoning will be in for sure, the rest isn't decided yet
Sylvan: cookie cutter attack+enlightment+light
Necro: Not decided yet, but most likely both summoning and dark
Barbs: Not decided yet, again fixed choice hurts (who needs shatter destructive against haven, for instance..)
Dwarves: Runes, Light, maybe some destructive, undecided yet
Dungeon: I'd like to use the well-known sinitar and his sorcery-destructive-enlightment combo with some auxiliary artifacts, that would make a nice hero to test anti-destructive strategies on
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 07:58 PM |
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Great On! I really apprieciate it!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 20, 2008 10:05 PM |
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Quote:
Right now I have the following in mind:
Knight: most likely a light/dark hybrid with flaming arrow ballista and of course attack skill. That gives the chance to utilize both ways and may be good for testing whether dark or light works better in certain matchups ah, the educational value.
I know this might bring the project a bit over the top, but it would be really interesting to have TWO builds for each class: A Might version and a Magic version.
For instance, for Haven:
Vittorio, Might Knight
Expert War Machines; Tripple Ballista, First Aid Tent.
Expert Attack; Flaming Arrows, Tactics.
Expert Leadership; Empathy.
Advanced Defence; Power of Endurance.
Expert Counterstrike; Retaliation Strike, Benediction.
Maeve, Magic Knight
Expert Light Magic; Master of Abjuration (or Blessings), Master of Wrath.
Expert Dark Magic; Master of Mind.
Expert Enlightenment; Intelligence.
Expert Leadership; Empathy.
Advanced Attack; Retribution.
Advanced Counterstrike; Retaliation Strike, Expert Trainer.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 20, 2008 10:10 PM |
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If it goes well, a second set of heroes is a good idea, especially that most of the factions have more than one dominant strategy. I will try to finish a first version of the duel map tomorrow. With a rather clumsy, but working (I hope) version of sylvan's racial implementation. Until someone teaches me how to script it, that is
As for artifacts, perhaps 4 minors, 2 majors and 1 relic would be the best idea? I'm against a version with totally no artifacts (it doesn't happen in the game), but I don't like heroes swimming in relic-class arties, either.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 20, 2008 10:20 PM |
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You could have an artifact merchant for each hero. Anyway looks promising, I'll be sure to try it
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted March 23, 2008 09:54 PM |
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Edited by dfortae at 21:56, 23 Mar 2008.
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This is an interesting project for sure. I am very interested in helping or giving feedback.
After being out of the game for a while (and just purchasing Tribes of the East a few weeks ago), I was disappointed in the duel editor and duel mode. Karli is still over powered. They changed too many things around at once with other heroes, so now there are other things that need to be rebalanced. Ugh!!! I don't understand why Nival can't see it. But I'm equally as frustrated as you are with the duel preset editor. Very limiting.
This would be a nice way to create the perfect armies. If you need feedback about unit/hero/army combinations, let me know. ;-)
Or if you need testing, let me know.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 23, 2008 10:28 PM |
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Wow, it's been a while, dfortae, nice to see you still around
I must apologize for the delay, but I totally forgot about the easter. I think a working version of the map will be available tomorrow, and from there, I'd like you guys to test it and tell me how to make it as "real" as it should be.
The first version will have a pretty primitive implementation of sylvan's racial. Sorry, don't know how to make it better.
And I think Elvin has suggested a nice idea. An artifact merchant available, so you have the additional artifacts AND a random roll on them every time.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 24, 2008 12:04 AM |
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About avenger I had seen a very elegant solution in the arena map. They had a garrison with a week's army of each faction near town. You fight on quickcombat and then choose your favoured enemy.
What are the necromancy bonuses?
Good to see you around dforae
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 24, 2008 06:16 PM |
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I must say, in contrary, I don't like the idea of an Artifact Merchant - it will be way too random. We all know how certain relic artifacts will completely skew balance - even major artifacts can do that, in the hands of the right hero. Somehow, it seems difficult to balance the Heroes with that as an unknown.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 24, 2008 06:54 PM |
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That's the idea, it NEVER is predictable what you will find. Of course you can simply ban certain artifacts from the map.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2008 07:18 PM |
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Well, here it is, guys: the version 1.00.
DOWNLOAD
It's pointless for me to describe each hero's abilities as you can check those yourself..
About the stuff included..
Artifacts
In version 1.00 all heroes start with 4 minor artifacts: Tarot Deck, Necromancer's Helm (Inferno has Chaos Helm instead), Armor of Valor (Dungeon has Emerald Slippers instead) and Boots of Magic Resistance (Dungeon has Phoenix Cape instead). You have four artifact merchants in total, but you're expected to use those two behind you  If you want to swim in artifacts, play easy mode. Want nearly none at all - heroic is the way to go.
Heroes
All of them are assumed to have visited two of each "powerup" buildings (marletto tower, mercenary camp etc) so they receive +2 to all stats.
Racials
Right now it's not possible for me to implement Academy's racial, since I have no clue how to do it. I must ask for advice on the modding board. Perhaps some script can do it.
Sylvan's racial - see above. I wanted to put a random hero surrounded by tier 3-4-5 of every castle to implement the racial the hard way, but the game is limited to 8 heroes per player, and those are already used by our main duelers. So without a major re-work, I can't add it. I'd need to change the map completely in order to make those additional 48 stacks fit. It would be nice to see it done via script, but again, I have absolutely no clue how to write one. Not that sylvan needs it badly to own all, anyway. 
Necropolis' racial: Well, I took a close look at the values listed in the fanmade manual, and calculated the DE for each week:
week 1: 201 DE
week 2: 378 DE
week 3: 436 DE
Week 4: 482 DE
Week 5: 535 DE
And decided that it was used for:
Week 1: half for skellies, half for liches (you can get liches week1 on a couple of maps without much problem)
Week 2: half for vamps, half for liches
Week 3: half for liches, half for wights
Week 4: half for liches, half for wights
Week 5: Half for wights, half for dragons
Which gave the total of 33 additional skellies, 8 vamps, 12 liches, 6 wights and 2 dragons. Perhaps a little far-fetched (You'd need a perfect creeping route to get those), but whatever. Ah yea, since the basic and the upgraded forms of those creatures vary a lot when it comes to DE costs, I used the average of the two costs.
Haven: Raised Haven's ammount of trained champions to 10, since 5 seemed a little puny for a supposed rich map.
That's all folks! Test and comment please. It's probably completely imbalanced, but agian, that's what the armies should be, at least numerically, after 5 weeks of full recruitment. Some factions are obviously stronger in endgame than others, so don't expect it to be too fair. Again, it wasn't the idea - the idea was to include armies as much similar to what you'd normally get after 5 weeks of uninterrupted play as possible, without taking diplomacy, plagues, resources' shortage, creeping casualties and all other into consideration.
My first impressions? (Played myself a couple of times..).. Damn, stronghold seems weak. And fortress is so imba Perhaps it was a bad idea to give them ALL the runes..
EDIT: First impression #2: I should call it IMBALANCED duel project. Looks like a lot of work for me to do to make it a bit more balanced..
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted March 25, 2008 02:01 AM |
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 25, 2008 09:07 AM |
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How about making a map with
level 1 heroes which u can choose, then
custom seer huts and level up trees to customize your skills,
creatures to recruit and a fixex amount of gold
Artifacts you can choose no more than x with some quest guards
and then the battle.
It won't take more than a week to play and it will be more customizable.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 25, 2008 09:54 AM |
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It was easier to do in H3, with the "event" globe you could put anywhere. The event could give you whatever you wanted.
That would be a good idea too, ofc, although I'm a bit lazy (and busy ) atm, so don't expect me to make such version anytime soon
I'd like to finish this one first
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 25, 2008 11:15 AM |
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Tried it yesterday but can't comment on balance until I try them with a human player One thing you could have them spread a bit, I tried to attack on in the middle and I attacked another because they are too close. It's a shame to have to wait next turn so you could move the second player's heroes. As for academy I did not check what artifacts you gave them but instead of mini arties you could simply give them extra regular ones for now. For instance a ring of celerity or speed as everyone makes init arties
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 25, 2008 11:47 AM |
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Want to nominate this thread for a shiny qp. Lots of work put into this. Just to help get it considered
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Message received.
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quickly.
