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| Thread: Macedonia what do you belive??? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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kesnar
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from Kesnaria
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posted April 03, 2008 12:09 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 05:55, 14 Aug 2010.
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Macedonia, what do you belive???
Well a big problem nowdays is the name of FYROM.I think that Macedoniais a big area that half is on Greece, a quarter is on FYROM and some other parts are Bulgarians and Albanians.So yes I believe that FYROM can be named "Democracy of Upper Macedonia".But the citizens of FYROM cannnot say that Alexander The Great was from FYROM and that Greek Macedonia is occupied.As for the Greeks they cannot say too, that Macedonia of FYROM,Bulgar and Albania is occupied.To close I think that Greece tries to negotiate but FYROM doesn't because Greece had changed position but FYROM hasn't.
I want to hear your opinion too.
P.S.:I tried to make this post as less patriotic as I could.Please if you are an ethnicist and you don't hear others opinions too, don't post hear, even if you are Greek or FYROM citizen.
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Doomforge
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posted April 03, 2008 01:56 PM |
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I think any kind of problem concerning how the country is NAMED is ridiculous, I mean it doesn't change a damn thing even if they name it the Republic of Pink Fluffy Pillows. Oh, so it shouldn't be named Macedonia because Macedonia is a region in Greece.. really.. should Poland demand that US change the names of all of their cities named "Warsaw" because that's how the Polish capital is called in english? And there is a few of cities named that way in US, believe me..
Come on.. pure idiocy. The world has bigger problems than some stupid name issues.
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kesnar
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from Kesnaria
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posted April 03, 2008 02:05 PM |
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Edited by kesnar at 14:05, 03 Apr 2008.
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Well you are right,I too don't care so much for the name.But, I think, the main problem is "who is Macedon" not the name.I mean that I can't stand a FYROM citizen telling that all the Greek Macedonian songs are cultural tradition to FYROM!!!Or that FYROM citizens are seed of Alexander the Great ,Neither Greek actually are you might say ,but Greeks and Ancient Macedons had the same language, the same traditions(not religion),etc,right???
I may sounds a little patriot(with the bad mean) but I am not really in the kind of these guys.
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Doomforge
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posted April 03, 2008 02:14 PM |
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I don't think any kind of tradition is the reason of all of this.
The man considered the most famous polish poet, A.Mickiewicz, kept writing about Latvia as his homeland, and in fact was born in Belarus, but I never heard those countries arguing about which of them should consider this guy native.
When there is no hatred between the nations, people simply don't care for such things.
In other words, everything can be called a reason to hate others.. when you already hate them.
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Homam
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posted April 03, 2008 02:36 PM |
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Well i strongly disagree with both of you.It's not that simple as we may believe.It's not a simple name but what hides that name.The nationalism from F.Y.R.O.M's side who claims that macedonia in northern part of Greece is occupied by greeks.They speak for Genocide that Greece made to them after the balkan wars.They change even the greek flag changing the cross and put the nazism cross.
But to take the things from the beginning F.Y.R.O.M brought in the surface all this propaganda just 15 years ago.It was one weapon of the communist propaganda of Stalin and Tito about the "Great Macedonia".
The slavs claim that they are the real macedonians.That Alexander the Great was their ancestor.They change the history so bad to achieve their propaganda that even senator Obama along with other 2 senators brought this issue in the Kongress. How a nation can call itself as macedonia without even speaking the language?Ancient macedonians were speaking a "greek" dialect.
Alexander the Great did have a greek name.I mean that his name was meaning something only in greek.To be more specific Alex- alex means in ancient greek protect-proof and ander- ander from andros means "man" in greek "Alexandros" the one who protect his men.
Philip his father.Phil- in greek philos= friend and ip-ippos means horse in greek Philippos means friend of horses.
I bet alexandroski makedonski doesn't mean anything and i'm pretty sure that the slavs doesn't even know what these names mean and from what they came too.
Being greek i feel very sad for their propaganda.It's not only they steal a part from a country's history(my country) but they also have nationalistic thoughts to take the region of greek macedonia.They want some sea and ports for their landlocked country but it's not my problem.They also want a clear identity for the full of mixes nation but this is not my problem also.Only about 50% of the people are slavs who call themselves macedonians.
They don't have the right to change history in order to create their own history.15 years of history i know they are pretty few.
Now the greek veto was the only choice that F.Y.R.O.Mians nationalists gave.But one thing i want to say to F.Y.R.O.M : We greeks are their neighboors, NOT Usa.They won't have for ever their friend Bush. Obama has a totally other position than Bush.And maybe obama be the next president.
Now i think their future is pretty dark.Without nato, with Albanians from the west, Bulgarians from the east and NOW Greeks from the south and without any worldwide organization to support them i don't think they are in a good position.But they pay their nationalistic "dreams"
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Doomforge
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posted April 03, 2008 03:26 PM |
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How come you disagree with me when in fact we said the same thing: that it's not the stupid name issue, but the nationalism and hatred? 
I don't know the Greek history well enough to claim the true provenance of Alexander the Great, but if it can't be unequivocally stated, than it should be totally ignored.
The whole situation reminds me of polish nobility in XVI century. They used to claim they are straight descendants of the Sarmatians, or however they are called in English. Too bad it was totally far-fetched.
In Poland, we have people of Silesia which in fact have different culture and language then the rest of the Poles, same for Cassubia, but nobody gives a damn about it and nobody claims they should have their own country. If what Kesnar says is true, the Greek and Macedonian people have the same culture and language, so it seems pretty weird, given that the people of Silesia feel Poles in majority despite their differences, and the people of Macedonia want nothing to do with Greeks despite the obvious similarities between those nations.
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baklava
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posted April 03, 2008 03:27 PM |
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It was one weapon of the communist propaganda of Stalin and Tito about the "Great Macedonia".
Uhm...
When Stalin was alive, FYROM was a part of Yugoslavia. The entire Yugoslavia was ruled by Tito. Tito quelled (or at least tried to quell) every sort of nationalism in the federate republics (Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia). So he most certainly wouldn't have said anything positive about the nationalist idea of a "Greater Macedonia", just like he forbid mentioning of the "Greater Serbia" or "Greater Croatia".
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The slavs claim that they are the real macedonians.That Alexander the Great was their ancestor
No we don't... At least not me or anyone from my surroundings. Slavic "Macedonians" of today are mostly a mixture of other Slavic peoples, such as Bulgarians and Serbs. They are called Macedonians but that doesn't really change anything - just like Montenegrians are Serbs, Kosovars are Albanians and Bosnians are half-Croats, half-Serbs. The word "Macedonian" mostly means "folks who inhabit Macedonia", or FYROM (but it's harder to say FYROMean than Macedonian ). That doesn't mean that they're descended from Alexander or anything. I mean, I can say I'm a Cherokee Indian, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm a Serb. You can say you're an Eskimo but you'll still be Greek.
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I bet alexandroski makedonski doesn't mean anything and i'm pretty sure that the slavs doesn't even know what these names mean and from what they came too.
I'm pretty sure that you don't even know what Slavs are.
What, now all Slavs are dumb and uneducated cause people who live in Macedonia call themselves Macedonians?
You're going too far, dude.
The term "Slavs" includes Russians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Croatians, etcetera.
None of the above claim they're descended from Alexander or Hercules or whoever and none of the above have a problem about whether Macedonia is called Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or Democratic Republic of North Macedonia or The Galactic Confederacy.
I don't see how you can drag us all in your territorial squabbles. That would be like us dragging Greeks into the Kosovo issue.
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they also have nationalistic thoughts to take the region of greek macedonia
What on Earth are you talking about? Macedonia is quite busy with its current situation to have any wish to expand its territory.
Besides, it's the 21st century.
I think you guys need to cool down a bit. Macedonia is not a threat of any kind. I know several people from Macedonia, and they are all good persons. None of them has any dreams about taking Greek territory or saying they're descended from Alexander or whatever. They are just ordinary, peaceful people.
Greece is a successful country which has everything it needs. If the Kosovo issue taught me anything, it's that history counts for nothing in the world of today. It's what we do now, not what we had then, that matters. Of course, we should respect our history, and everything, but we should be looking to make our current and future situation better instead of trying to recreate the times that are long gone and will never return.
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Doomforge
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posted April 03, 2008 03:41 PM |
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This is truly ridiculous. People care way too much for things of little importance. Like the fact which nation "owns" Alexander the Great. And if the Greek confirmed that the Macedonians do, would it change their life? Would they start peeing liquid gold instead of piss? No, it wouldn't change a damn thing. You can put your pride into your @ss when your country is starving or at the edge of war.
And a little question for those who think their nations claim rights to someone.. When Poland and Latvia existed as a union, there was a highly succesful king that ruled it. Which country has the "rights" to call that king their own great ruler of the past when our countries separated? Or maybe no one since his country no longer exist?
Or maybe it doesn't mean a damn who "owns" him? 
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Homam
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posted April 03, 2008 04:12 PM |
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@Baklava
When i'm speaking about slavs i'm not refering to Serbs.I'm refering to F.Y.R.O.M and i'm calling them slavs because it makes clear their slavic identity.Greeks and Macedonians are not slavs.That's the only reason i use this word.
Now there's no macedonia as a country.It's called F.Y.R.O.M.In their country and in their minds they can call them selves Macedonia or Mongolia or whatever.
Now about what you said about there's no danger from "macedonia" for Greece.Well i used to believe that bc i was thinking that it's all about a bunch of nationalists.But what about their government?What about the photo with president Nikola Gruevsky and a map in the font which shows their great macedonia with borders in half of Greece?
This is not a danger to Greece? We are talking about their President!!not for an idiot citizen.Or what about the whole propaganda against Greece that even senator Obama brought it to the Kongress?Why?He hates F.Y.R.O.M?Nop of course but he found out the hostiles actions.
They don't deserve that name.I am maybe very emotional to this issue cause i'm greek but i'm trying to see the reality.I want your opinions if you believe that F.Y.R.O.M deserves the exclusive name of macedonia. If history allows it.We are not the nationalists they present us in the abroad.We want a solution to name issue as quick as possible.A name with geografical refferance.Like northern macedonia because the biggest part of macedonia is Greek.And what about the Bulgarians?They occupy a a region of macedonia like F.Y.R.O.M Why bulgarians don't try to call their country Macedonia?For the same reasons why Greeks don't do it.Because both we have a CLEAR identity and history.F.Y.R.O.M doesn't so steals it
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baklava
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posted April 03, 2008 04:37 PM |
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We are talking about their President!
A president of a small, troubled, undeveloped country surrounded by potential enemies on all sides.
If he's a nationalist, that doesn't mean he's stupid. And attempting to do anything to Greece would be something only a complete retard would try, president or not. More than half of his country is populated by Albanians, who also want to merge Macedonia with their country. Bulgarian interests lie there too. Do you really think that they can or want to do anything to Greece? They have too much inner problems to think about.
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Or what about the whole propaganda against Greece that even senator Obama brought it to the Kongress?
God knows how much propaganda against other countries goes around in the Balkans. That's nothing new. It's reduced lately, but it's still there in huge amounts. I got used to it already
Anyway, every remotely educated person on the planet knows that the region of Macedonia stretches outside FYROM, and that Greece holds most of its legacy. If all the fuss is cause the country is named Macedonia instead of North Macedonia, then it's so pointless that I don't know what to say anymore.
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Homam
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posted April 03, 2008 04:59 PM |
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Well you have your point.But i have my reasons to concern a bit more. As you said every educated person in the world know about the macedonia and that it's in greek region.But "educated" what about the masses who believe what others told?What about next generations?Imagine -if now it's called "Macedonia"- in 100 years?Maybe the next generations start a new balkan war to take their Macedonia.It's a circle.If we look back in history a bit we'll find out the future.You think the wars are just in far history?I bet you don't maybe I believe it but you are not because you lived the war. That's why because i don't want to live it and you don't want to live it again, I believe that the name dispute must over now.With a clear name that doesn't gives the ground for hostile actions.That name would be North Macedonia or Upper Macedonia or New Macedonia.But not exclusively Macedonia.That's what i believe that's what Greece believes and wants to.But they don't discuss such a name because they have extremely nationalistic thoughts.
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baklava
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posted April 03, 2008 05:47 PM |
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Maybe the next generations start a new balkan war to take their Macedonia
Oh come on.
They already have their Macedonia. Everything they can get is already there - a former Yugoslav republic. If it weren't for Tito, FYRM wouldn't even exist... In a 100 years, they'll be happy if they still own it, and it's not under the flag of a Greater Albania or something.
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You think the wars are just in far history?I bet you don't maybe I believe it but you are not because you lived the war. That's why because i don't want to live it and you don't want to live it again, I believe that the name dispute must over now.
That's how wars begin.
People are going on about how "they don't want a war BUT the dispute must be over the way we want it to be over".
And that "but" leads to a "but" from the other side as well, and after a few "but"-s someone hits someone in a bar, then someone shoots someone at the border and the next thing you know you're at the front with a rifle and a ridiculous uniform, asking yourself what the hell happened and how the **** can you get out of all that alive.
Most wars in history have begun cause people wanted to prevent them. And it's always the other side that has "nationalistic thoughts" and that is a threat to your integrity.
I've grown up in that crap. A few years ago I even believed it. It's a drug, trust me.
Don't let it consume you as well.
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you got the blues."
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Corribus
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posted April 03, 2008 06:06 PM |
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Oh, what a waste of time and energy. Can't people just be people and be done with it? Jeez....
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executor
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posted April 03, 2008 06:12 PM |
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Edited by executor at 20:59, 03 Apr 2008.
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Besides, it's the 21st century.
As I agree with you baklava, and Doomforge, on the matter of FYROM and Macedon, I fail to see what has historical age to do with thoughts of territorail expansion . Countries will always welcome that, if it pays off the costs. The alternative to expansion is integration, so thanks to EU not 21st century, there probably won't be much territorial shifts in Europe(except merger of EU into a federational state formally at some point).
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Homam
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posted April 03, 2008 06:32 PM |
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Most wars in history have begun cause people wanted to prevent them. And it's always the other side that has "nationalistic thoughts" and that is a threat to your integrity.
I've grown up in that crap. A few years ago I even believed it. It's a drug, trust me.
Don't let it consume you as well.
So what are you suggesting to do?Greeks should allow F.Y.R.O.M use exclusively the name Macedonia just like that?Nop maybe i have grown into this crap you said.This crap which saws the other side with nationalistic thoughts.Is it crap the changing of greek flag putting a nazi cross instead of the christian cross?Or is it crap the image with greek prime minister in SS uniform?All these "actions" under their government umbrella.Me i don't feel my self and my country as neonazi.
It's clear who is the nationalist side in the negotiations.Maybe i'm wrong and i don't know what you think of Greece in this issue.In Great Britain they consider Greece as nationalist side that's why vetoed F.Y.R.O.M they said.
I kno i'm greek and my point of view can't be "neutral" but also i think it's not nationalistic and i have clear points that i would need some pages to analyze them.
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Doomforge
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posted April 03, 2008 06:38 PM |
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HoMaM, just chill out, then try to answer a simple question: Does it hurt that some country is named just like a region in Greece? For you, a simple citizen.
I really don't think so.
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Homam
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posted April 03, 2008 06:59 PM |
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HoMaM, just chill out, then try to answer a simple question: Does it hurt that some country is named just like a region in Greece? For you, a simple citizen.
I really don't think so.
Yeah it doesn't hurt.It won't change my life.I concern more for the economy than this.Here's my answer.
But what you want to say with that?Not to concern about this?I'm a half macedonian.My mom is from macedonia (greece).For you who has nothing to do with this region i'm pretty sure that's easy to say your ideas and whatever you like.What you will tell to my mom for example when she's abroad and tell to foreigners that she's macedonian and they would think that she's from F.Y.R.O.M.Simple questions.You think it's so simple?Yeah this issue is pretty sad for many greeks.I don't expect you to understand as i can't understand the serbs for Kosovo.As i can't understand the people of Tibet with China.And these examples i want to believe are much harder for their people than the "stupid" -for many of you-name issue.
How easy can it be for me who taught in the whole school years about greek history and macedonia is greek?It's not at all but i say again i don't expect you to understand.And as difficult is for me to get it, the same is for ppl of F.Y.R.O.M bc they are taught their "history" propagandistic history for me and for everyone who knows a bit of history.But i don't blame them.They have been taught like that.
The theme is that we won't allow the exclusiveness of the name macedonia to no one.8 to 10 greeks said that.It's really important for us.Stupid for others maybe.
And just for the record.If we greeks follow the same policy with F.Y.R.O.M then we could say easily that U.S.A is Greece.Yeah it has about 2500+ cities called "Athens".Little propaganda and maybe we can make it (?) with a little help from another uncle Sam! That's how they work and we want such allies..
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Doomforge
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posted April 03, 2008 07:18 PM |
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I am not saying the problems of any country are stupid. My parents lived under russian occupation at the times of communism (whether it was formal or not, it doesn't matter, since soviets ruled the country). My grandparents survived the hell which 2nd world war was, including both Nazi and Soviet occupation. I believe you can trust me on that matter: I know what living in a political conflict looks like. If not myself, then from the stories of my family.
But you're asking for it, Greece&Macedonian guys: Your conflict is completely redundant. You should at least try to find some better reasons to hate each other than some stupid name issues. Compared to the hell Europe has been forced to see, it's is simply ridiculous. Not the situation in your country, since as I already said, no problems at any countries are stupid. But the reasoning behind this whole affair.
It IS stupid. Period. The worst thing to stir up two countries? The unreasonable demands & behavior from a small ethnic group. While this is not the case, it is a close call. Wars have begun that way.
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baklava
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posted April 03, 2008 07:36 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 19:40, 03 Apr 2008.
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So what are you suggesting to do?Greeks should allow F.Y.R.O.M use exclusively the name Macedonia just like that?
Well I thought that was the reason why it's name is the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The name obviously suggests that it's not the same as Greek Macedonia.
You say you'd satisfy with North Macedonia. Instead of "North", they have "Former Yugoslav Republic", which is even better at dismissing any confusion, in my opinion.
Let me illustrate.
USA is usually called "America". But neither Canada nor Mexico nor Argentina nor any other country on the American continent is pissed off about it. Cause there's a difference between a geographical America, and the nation of United States of America.
The case here, in my opinion, is quite similar.
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Is it crap the changing of greek flag putting a nazi cross instead of the christian cross?Or is it crap the image with greek prime minister in SS uniform?
YES. IT'S CRAP.
It's all complete and utter crap.
I won't even start about how other sides presented - and still present - my entire people both to themselves and the international community. And how many people believed that. There are people out there who hate me - and don't even know me - just because I'm a Serb. There are also such Serbs - who hate someone just cause he's Albanian or Croatian or something. But those people are idiots and, more often than not, criminals. They certainly don't represent their entire peoples. There will always be a few sick government officials, political scum, who secretly or openly support those. But definitely not the majority.
Thus I will always regard it as nothing but rubbish.
It can sometimes develop serious problems, yes, but it's just a bunch of, as I already stated, crap.
But crap will always exist. All you can do is prove you're above that.
And I believe your mother will be understood wherever she goes - to those few who are unclear, she can always explain she's a Greek from the geographic region of Macedonia.
Forgive me that after losing an entire region of my country's territory of huge historical and emotional significance to a western whim I don't have much understanding for an already successful and wonderful country making such a huge fuss over a country called Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, instead of North Macedonia. But in my eyes, even the Kosovo issue is pointless, and many harder ones, let alone this one single argument about a name.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Homam
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posted April 03, 2008 07:45 PM |
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I don't ask to hate no one.The same i want to believe for the "fyromians".The thing you don't get it is that it's not the name the problem nor that we or them want to hate someone.
It's what comes with the name.It's their propaganda it's their governmental maps who show their country to occupy the whole northern Greece.It's the maps in their school history books and everything else they teach the kids.I always speak in governmental level.I don't care what may say a civilian because i could find much more easily nationalists here with maps which shows the whole Europe occupied by Greece.That's what i'm trying to say.
Many countries with first the U.S.A who don't give a **** about the name issue and have their own "energy" reasons to "put" F.Y.R.O.M in nato try to blame us for destroying their plans.
But also others countries did support strongly greek position like France,Spain,Italy,Iceland and Luxemburg and many others who completely recognize our positions.
And now how our "friends" and "allies" ask from Greece to say yes to the invitation of F.Y.R.O.M.Remember if they have taken the invitation we would be then allies.Right?Well how much possible is for Greece to have an ally like F.Y.R.O.M an ally who claims that Greece is a country of neonazis and fascism?A country who made a genocide(#$#@$!#!$@) to them after the balkan wars?That's what they claim.And afterall some of the allies believe that an invitation would stabilize the area.
How we can built trust and alliance relationships with a country like that or how they want to built such relationships with a country like Greece.Because to their minds we are their enemies.
So what i want to say afterall is that the name issue was just the less important reason.It's what hides the name..
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I think we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto
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