|
| Thread: Behold! Battle of Valour. Tower vs Fortress. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
posted December 07, 2001 06:19 PM |
|
|
Titans were not Death Stared by the Mighty Gorgons.
!Beastmaster attacks the Titans with the Lizard Warriors!
Lizard Warriors do base damage of (6*40)240*0.5=120(halved for range). A/D difference is -12 (-24%). Modified damage is (120*0.76) 91, leaving the top Titan with 8 Health.
!It is now turn of the Gnoll Marauders!
____________
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted December 07, 2001 06:26 PM |
|
Edited By: Djive on 7 Dec 2001
|
!Beastmaster attacks the Titans with the Gnoll Marauders!
Gnoll Marauders do 4 * 30 * 0.72 (A/D difference is -14 = 86 damage. Killing 1 Titan and leaving the last Titan with 222 Health.
!It is now turn of the Titans!
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted December 09, 2001 05:02 AM |
|
|
My surrender !
Hmmm, not much can be done.
I cast the last chain lightning aimed at lizard warriors. This will do most damage to fortress troop without killing the last titan. 
Then, I declare surrender (well, maybe another HC general can turn the tide to tower's favor, but I don't think I can do anything to avoid the defeat of tower).
**well, maybe casting CH right from the beginning and casting it every turn is a better tactic for this typical might vs magic battle. Anyway, this will be my last reply to this thread. Sorry to discourage anyone who still wants to continue the fight. 
____________
Choose what you love
and love what you choose.
|
|
Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
|
|
posted December 09, 2001 05:47 AM |
|
|
Well, we can wait for Thunder to figure out resistance and who is hit by chain lightning now, but you are right Tower didn't do so well here. BTW can't surrender, shackles of war are in place. 
|
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 09, 2001 01:30 PM |
|
|
Outcome of the Chain Lightning.......
Lizard Warriors take 620 damage, killing all of them.
Chaos Hydras take 310 damage, killing one (204) and damaging the top one (144 Health). 5 Chaos Hydras remaining.
Mighty Gorgons resist the spell.
Titan takes 155 damage, leaving the top one with 67 Health.
Dragon Flies take 77 damage, killing 4 (60+4) and damaging the 5th (7 Health). 21 Dragon Flies remaining.
Greater Basilisks take 38 damage, leaving the top one with 2 Health.
!It is still turn of the Titans!
By the way, there is now another battle thread.
____________
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted December 09, 2001 04:51 PM |
|
Edited By: Djive on 9 Dec 2001
|
It seems the only stack the Titans can attack without killing themselves (or risk death stare) is the Gnolls.
!Titans attack Gnoll Marauders!
Titan do 50 * 0.96 (A/D difference is -2) = 48 damage, killing 8 Gnolls.
Gnolls retaliate and do 4 * 21 * 0.72 (A/D difference is -14) = 60 damage. Titan has 7 Health remaining.
It's the end of this battleround. Time for a summary...
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 09, 2001 09:17 PM |
|
|
Spells in Effect: Prayer (1 round left, on Fortress troops), Bless (3, Fortress).
Spell Points: Wizard 97, Beastmaster 46.
Creatures Movement Order
Dragon Flies: 17 (Prayer, Bless)
Wyvern Monarchs: 15 (P, B)
Greater Basilisk: 11 (P, B)
Chaos Hydra: 11 (P, B)
Mighty Gorgons: 10 (P, B)
Gnoll Marauders: 9 (P, B)
Titan: 8 (Weakness 2, Slow 5)
Iron Golems: 5 (Stoned 1)
Creatures Left on the Battle Field
Fortress
Dragon Flies: 21 (Health 7, Att 19, Def 30, Prayer, Bless)
Wyvern Monarchs: 13 (Health 31, Att 27, Def 36, P, B)
Chaos Hydras: 5 (Health 1444, Att 31, Def 42, P, B)
Greater Basilisks: 31 (Health 2, Att 25, Def 34, P, B)
Mighty Gorgons: 4 (Health 66, Att 24, Def 38, P, B)
Gnoll Marauders: 21 (Health 2, Att 17 , Def 28, P, B)
Tower
Titan: 1 (Health 7, Att 26, Def 31,)
Iron Golems: 4 (Health 26, Att 14, Def 17, Stoned)
Sorry, no picture this time.
____________
|
|
Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
|
|
posted December 10, 2001 12:06 AM |
|
|
:)
There is anti tower conspiracy here wrong dids for tower on 1st turn ruined idea , so my point of view :
1st turn
dragon flies wait
wizard casts chain lightning on hydras
genies cast spell on titans
beast master casts prayer
wyverns wait
titans shoot cows
all fortress creatures except lizardmen wait
lizardmen shoot genies
gorgoyles fly near titans
nagas move near titans blocking entire 2 hexes
archmagi shoot cows
golems wait
gremlins shoot cows
golems move close to genies
gnolls moves 8 hexes forward
gorgons moves to location 10 hexes away from nagas
hydras moves to location 10 hexes away from gorgoyles
basilisks moves to location 10 hexes away from gargoyles
wyverns attack genies
dragon flies attack magi
end of round
tower : fortress
7 titans 5 hydras
14 nagas 13 wyverns
9 genies 18 cows
27 magi 36 basilisks
54 golems 68 dragon fly
97 gargoyles 61 lizards
144 gremlins 107 gnolls
2nd round
beast master can cast bless in the beginning, or little later I prefer later
dragon flies genies
wyverns attack magi
wizard casts chain lightning on hydras
genies casts spell on titans
beastmaster casts bless
basilisks attack gorgoyles
titans shoot basilisks
hydras attack nagas genies and golems
cows attack nagas
gorgoyles defend
lizards shoot nagas
gnolls attack gremlins
magi waits
nagas attack hydras
golems attack cows
gremlins move away
magi move away
end of round 2
tower : fortress
7 titans 2 hydras
8 nagas 13 wyverns
0 genies 10 cows
13 magi 26 basilisks
41 golems 68 dragon fly
72 gargoyles 56 lizards
14 gremlins 99 gnolls
Maybe fortress can play little better but the main damage was done by lightning so its battle for luck 2 resisted lightings will give victory to fortress 1 resisted will give equal chanses, and 2 working chain lightning will give win for tower.
In this situation tower need only to resurrect nagas and shoot cows while fortress cant do anything and will lose after a couple of rounds.
|
|
Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
posted December 10, 2001 08:32 AM |
|
|
Yeah Yeah Undead_knight!
In the first few rounds the rules/spells/skills etc where not all together clear.
Thunder edited that his text later...that's why there are some very questionable turn here and there...
____________
If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
|
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 10, 2001 08:07 PM |
|
|
Sorry, Undead_Knight but I wouldn`t make suicide attack with Dragon Flies in the beginning.
Also, after the Mass Prayer you can play far more agressively than that (especially when Tower troops have already moved). Maybe you should still (Wizard has Haste in spellbook) fear Nagas, but I wouldn`t (Wizard will likely cast CL instead of Haste) and there is no sense moving them so that they are 10 hexes far from Nagas (if they are Hasted they WILL reach your units). And you can forget Gargoyles right away, they wont do much damage and you have good defense.
And for Chain Lightning. It is highly improbable that none of the creatures wouldn`t resist. Usually there is one or two creatures resisting it. And after Fortress troops have reached Wizard`s ranks it is more likely that Wizard will do more damage to his own troops instead of opponent`s.
However, it was meant so that if players do errors others would accept their errors.
!Beastmaster attacks Titan with the Dragon Flies!
No Titans remaining.
!It is now turn of the Wyvern Monarchs!
Time for final post......
____________
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted December 10, 2001 10:28 PM |
|
Edited By: Djive on 10 Dec 2001
|
I agree with Thunder. Just look at what happened in the thread.
The Beastmaster should attack immediately and don't care about injuries because units come within the 10-hex range of shooters. Beastmaster moves all units their full movement (also the Lizard warriors.) This bring them within the 10 hex radius and this is also to make them a less obvious target for CL.
The placing of the units should be such that if wizard wants to cast CL on Hydra or Gorgons, then the second unit that will be hit is a Tower unit. For any other unit the 3rd unit hit should be tower. Fortress may very well want to use the Teleport trick I used to accomplish this instead of casting Bless in round 2.
As for the Beastmaster's chances to win. They're very small if the wizard has a good strategy. The big mistake made by the wizard is to move the Titans out of the corner.
!Wyvern Monarchs attacks the stoned Iron Golems!
Wyvern Monarcs do 23 * 13 * 1.5 (A/D difference is +10) * 0.5 (stoned) = 224 damage. Iron Golems had 131 health remaining total, thus all Iron Golems perish!
No tower troops left. Battle is Over!
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
|
posted December 10, 2001 11:47 PM |
|
|
to thunder
I agree about dragon flies, but what are you suppose as more agressive dids for tower? I propose wyverns and dragon flies attack on 1st turn (dragon flies wait, then attack genies) you can only attack nagas by your hydras, but after this titans, archmagi and gremlin will shoot them. So I suppoose its better to wait, and then we have titans standing in corner, guarded by nagas and gargoyles, so fortress need to kill both nagas and gargoyles to attack titans with 3 units.I think that on 1st turn hydras,basilisks, and cows must move to position 10 hexes away from troops they suppose to attack to avoid full shoot of titans.So why you want to walk them closer? You can attack tower troops in corner only with 3 units and I think that hydras,cows and basilisks are best for it.I also edited previous post with waiting for dragon flies but nothing changes
About chain lightning : I didnot count effect of it, I cast it during battle and I m sure that it can be resisted only by 1st unit, just try it few times
____________
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted December 11, 2001 12:15 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I think that on 1st turn hydras,basilisks, and cows must move to position 10 hexes away from troops they suppose to attack to avoid full shoot of titans.So why you want to walk them closer?
I can only guess why Thunder wants this, but by moving forward as far as possible, Beastmaster can place the units so that Tower troops will be hit as 2nd or 3rd troop no matter which Fortress unit the Wizard targets with CL.
Beastmaster also gets more options on what to attack and with the Prayered units Beastmaster will move before most of the Tower units.
Quote:
You can attack tower troops in corner only with 3 units and I think that hydras,cows and basilisks are best for it.
You can't attack the corner with three 2-hex units. Gnolls or Dragonflies will have to be one unit.
Quote:
I also edited previous post with waiting for dragon flies but nothing changes
Except the beastmaster gets more Dragonflies.
Quote:
About chain lightning : I didnot count effect of it, I cast it during battle and I m sure that it can be resisted only by 1st unit, just try it few times
The spell is negated if it is resisted by the first unit.
However, if another unit resists the CL will be redirected to the next creature in turn (and the CL will no longer consider the creature that resisted a valid target).
If you move forward with your units instead of taking the 10-hex approach then that new unit is likely to be a Tower unit. Just look at the thread and you see that Tower units were hit in this combat, even though the Wizard target the Lizard Warriors who were at the other end of the battlefield.
It's also important that the Beastmaster plans very carefully where to place the units when moving them forwards, as the placing of creatures will affect the path the CL takes.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
Undead_Knight
Known Hero
Hero of Chaos
|
|
posted December 11, 2001 12:28 AM |
|
|
I will see what will happened if fortress will move forward btw if you will see in heroes moves that I proposed you will also see that there are 3 units in corner :Titans that cant be touched, nagas and gorgoyles, so you can use 3 units to kill titans guard and then use 2 of them + dragon flies to kill titans
____________
|
|
thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted December 11, 2001 04:57 AM |
|
|
Well, I got to eat my words
Though I have said I won't post in this thread earlier, I got to eat my words to defend my favorite tower.
By looking at the heroes stat (5 7 13 15) vs (9 18 6 7), it is obvious that to engage in might battle is suicide for tower. Att/def modifiers give -26% for tower attack fortress, taken into account the expert armorer, this will give a merely 63% damage (0.74*0.85) for equal att/def of creatures. If we consider the specialties of creatures e.g. hydra, cows, dragon flies, WM, the advantage of fortress is even more obvious.
So, resorting to offensive magic is one of the way for tower to win. 
Let¡¦s have an imaginary scenario: if fortress cast mass prayer i.e. +4 to everything, then after move of DF and WM, it WILL be the turn of tower (speed 11 for genie and titan). So, what can fortress do?
a). If they move DF and/or WM forward, they will be ganged without the support of other troops coz the battlefield is 15-hex and the max. speed for other fortress troop is only 11 ! DF and WM will be severely damaged by at least one shooter (ya, they can only block 2 shooters). I will use IG and OG to eat the retarliation and use my naga, genie and even the blocked shooters to kill them. At the same time, I will cast CL right away, targeted at lizard warriors. With exp resistance (20%), maybe 1 or 2 units can resist, well, maybe 3, then it WILL definitely hit MORE fortress troops than tower troops. (come on, expert CL can only hit 5 units)
b). If fortress choose to wait with DF and WM, the situation is no better. I will cast CL right away but maybe target at DF. Then the fire power of 3 shooters will targeted at either DF or maybe LW (ya, targeted at high lv creatures will not be effective due to high def rating). I will try to finish DF asap to gain initiative in later turns. Waiting with shooters is maybe waste of turns since the prayed fortress troops have higher speed rating. At the same time, my naga/genie/OG will walk to give fully protect to titans which maybe the most valuable tower unit. Since fortress has no area attack possibilities except hydra, it's not a bad idea to gathered the tower troops.
At the 2nd turn, tower still have chance to cast CL after move of DF and WM. This time, I will target at either cows or hydras which are the two most dangerous troops. My remaining troops will keep ganging on low lv fortress troops e.g. gnolls and DF or even basilik. While titans (shooting) and naga will deal with hydra/cows/WM. The great att/def difference will make att to high lv fortress ineffective and the retarliation too costly.
My main tactic in later turns is to kill DF asap, then I may gain initiative by casting mass haste coz I don¡¦t think it is possible to kill all titans in 2~3 turns. After that, more tactic can be used. Well, maybe I will still resort to CL targeted at high lv fortress troops (mainly cows and hydras or maybe basilik in later turns).
Quote:
The spell is negated if it is resisted by the first unit.However, if another unit resists the CL will be redirected to the next creature in turn (and the CL will no longer consider the creature that resisted a valid target).
Yes, it is true. But it is also true that if the first unit resist CL, it WILL NOT be directed to another unit ! So, either 620 damage or nothing. Yes, if the later units resist, it will be redirected to other units, but they may be tower units or THEY MAY BE OTHER FORTRESS UNITS !!!
Besides, tower also has frost ring (190 damage) to cast under ganging by fortress (well, naga is prime target for that  ) and lighting bolt (375 damage). This will do MUCH MORE damage than the physical attack of tower troops especially cast on high lv fortress units.
Let¡¦s look at the total hp:
7 Titans________________________7 Chaos Hydras
14 Naga Queens__________________14 Wyvern Monarchs
21 Master Genies________________21 Mighty Gorgons
36 Arch Magi____________________36 Greater Basilisks
54 Iron Golems__________________72 Dragon Flies
97 Obsidian Gargoyles___________81 Lizard Warriors
144 Master Gremlins_____________132 Gnoll Marauders
Total: 9,578 (tower) vs 8,844 (fortress)
There is an advantage of 734 hp !
OK, let¡¦s consider the worse situation for CL: first hit on fortress works and the following 4 hits ALL on tower units, then it is 620 damage vs 581 damage. Still slight advantage for tower and don¡¦t forget IG will only take 25% damages !
With 150 spell pts, tower can cast at least 5 CL (well, maybe 7 if expert CL takes only 20 spell pts) that accounts for 6,005 total damages !!! which is a lot ! (ya, this is the "ideal" scenario which is unlikely )
Well, if resort to CL, it will become a battle of luck and burning of hp which tower has slight advantage. Maybe cloning of titans or resurrect of naga in later turns are also workable ideas. But who knows.
Btw, I welcome challenge from any HC heroes for this battle if I am given full command of tower. That¡¦s the best way to prove that I¡¦m not just a theorist. (or maybe bull-snowter )
____________
Choose what you love
and love what you choose.
|
|
Icon
Adventuring Hero
Tower Loving Criminal
|
|
posted December 11, 2001 02:11 PM |
|
|
Thunderknight:
I also make a promise to myself not to post in this thread.
So I'd like to thank you for your post! Hopefully it explains to some ppl that it wont be an easy win for Fortress if it wins at all.
My two cents.
When it become obvious that Tower is gonna loose in your game I made a test map. I played Tower and my friend played Fortress (he is a good homm player, actually havent met in RL anyone better than him).
Tower6/Fortress4
We both tried different tactics. Including me hiding my shooters behind nagas and force filed (btw I lost)
The best Tower strategy:
- CL all the way
- never attack (only Nq and shooters can do this)
- move your troops so CL doesnt hit them
- use resurrect (only on titans - its spell points consuming)
- Genies cast spell on titans
The best Fortress strategy:
- Mass prayer turn 1
- Attack with DF/WM/CC the others go forward (Towers CL will hit tower's troops too)
- Mass bless turn 2
- Smart use of clone
This is my expirience and my opinion. You can disagree with it if you wont. However, no way Fortress is going to win that easialy, in fact it will probably loose.
____________
|
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 11, 2001 08:34 PM |
|
|
This is the one of the scenarios I would have done in the first round:
Wizard casts Chain Lightning, that is obvious and maybe the spell with the genies. Then Fortress casts Mass Prayer. Then both troops wait. Lizard Warriors, Master Gremlins and Arch Magi will shoot for half damage. Naga Queens wont have a chance to get attack so they will move to shield Titans with Gargoyles. Gnolls can move outside the shooting range of the Titans, so they can attack the Magi next round (note that Titans are in the corner so they cant eliminate your moving options so much as when they would be in middle AND the Titans are only creatures you should fear of! Nagas are moved already and wont get move in the next round before all of your forces have moved). Gorgons will also move so that they are outside of the shooting range. Now, if the genies casted a spell (and IF that spell isn`t Haste or Prayer), Titans have to move before the Basilisks and the Hydras. So they will shoot for half damage. And then Hydras and Basilisks will move. Wyvern Monarchs and Dragon Flies are now able to attack genies.
On the next round they will propably kill them (maybe with the aid of the Lizard Warriors), so Beastmaster can cast slow on the Titans and move EVERY unit except Gnolls and Lizard Warriors. If you cast Chain Lightning after that, it WILL hit your own troops no matter what you do (especially because Beastmaster have resistance).
____________
|
|
Icon
Adventuring Hero
Tower Loving Criminal
|
|
posted December 11, 2001 10:50 PM |
|
|
Thunder:
The only units that CL really damages are first two that get hit, the others dont matter.
So what if I hit my units 4th or even 3rd in a chain. I just pray I hit Iron Golems
I never did attack with my troops (unless no retaliation or I kill the whole stack), CL was doing more dmg that all my units combined. And I lost almost nothing during my turn.
As far as resistance is concerned, even expert without backup of res. artifacts doesnt help you much, I had battles when no units resisted. Maybe Im just lucky!
Try my strategy yourself, or even better accept Thunderknight challange!
BTW about the thing I said: promise not to post in this thread. I noticed the thread too late, the battle was almost done and there was nothing I could do but to question the decisions made.
Personally I think the thread is great, but still I like to hotseat more
____________
|
|
Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 11, 2001 11:17 PM |
|
|
There is some manual battles I made.....
to prove to the players that both forces were nearly balanced.
Battle 1
Round 1
First stack resists Chain Lightning!
Genies casts Fireshield on the Titans!
Mass Prayer!
Round 2
Slow on the Titans!
Master Genies are dead!
First stack resists Chain Lightning!
Mass Bless!
Round 3
Titans reached on the third round (Nagas dead)!
Chain Lightning on the Lizard Warriors (hits two own creatures)!
Arch Magi are dead!
Round 4
Master Gremlins are dead!
Obsidian Gargoyles are dead!
Iron Golems are dead!
Chain Lightning on the Greater Basilisks!
Clone on the Chaos Hydras!
Clones are dead!
Round 5
Lightning Bolt on the Titans!
Titans are dead!
(Two resisted Chain Lightnings (!), it was obvious that Fortress would win this battle. Resurrection on the Titans instead of the Chain Lightning would have perhaps enabled Tower to survive round or two more. But the fight was already lost.)
Battle 2
Round 1
Chain Lightning on the Mighty Gorgons!
Genies casts Air Shield on the Titans!
Mass Prayer!
Round 2
Slow on the Titans!
Master Genies are dead!
Chain Lightning on the Lizard Warriors (hits three own creatures (one was Golem stack)!
Round 3
Mass Bless
Titans not reached (but Naga Queens are dead)!
Obsidian Gargoyles are dead!
Master Gremlins are dead!
Chain Lightning on the Mighty Gorgons!
Mighty Gorgons are dead!
Round 4
Wyvern Monarchs dead!
Arch Magi are dead!
Chain Lightning on the Greater Basilisks (no way to hurt Hydras badly(adjacent to the Titans) with CL. Golems got smitten too)!
Clone on the Chaos Hydras (no way to kill it anymore that round)!
Round 5
Mass Prayer! (enabling the Clones to move before Titans and not many rounds left in the first one)
Gnoll Marauders are dead!
Resurrection on the Titans!
Clones are dead!
Round 6
Lightning Bolt on the Titans! (not many spell points left)
Chain Lightning on the Greater Basilisks! (Golems got smitten too)
Iron Golems stoned!
Round 7
Resurrection on the Titans! (32 spell points left)
Greater Basilisks are dead!
Round 8
Chain Lightning on the Chaos Hydras! (hits Titans and Golems)
Round 9
Mass Bless!
Resurrection on the Titans!
Round 10
Lizard Warriors are dead! (Neither one of heroes haven`t spell points remaining)
Round 11
Iron Golems are dead!
Round 12
Dragon Flies are dead!
Chaos Hydras are dead!
(Only 4 Titans survived. None of the CLs were resisted fully. Would one have been resisted Fortress would surely have won.)
Battle 3
Round 1
Teleport on the Chaos Hydras! (Next to Titans, of course)
Chain Lightning on the Mighty Gorgons!
Genies cast Prayer on the Titans!
Round 2
Mass Prayer!
Titans poisoned!
Master Genies casts Bless on the Titans!
Obsidian Gargoyles stoned!
First stack resists Chain Lightning!
Master Gremlins are dead!
Round 3
Mass Bless!
Dragon Flies are dead!
Chain Lightning on the Wyvern Monarchs! (strucks Genies)
Master Genies casts Precision on the Titans!
Master Genies are dead!
Wyvern Monarchs are dead!
Naga Queens are dead!
Round 4
Chain Lightning on the Gnolls! (hits Titans and Golems)
Gnoll Marauders are dead!
Obsidian Gargoyles are dead!
Clone on the Chaos Hydras!
Arch Magi are dead!
Round 5
First stack resists Chain Lightning!
Clones are dead!
Iron Golems are dead!
Clone on the Chaos Hydras!
Titans are dead!
(Teleporting the Hydras and attacking with Flies immediately proved to be efficient move (forcing the Titans and Arch Magi to fight in melee). Two CLs were resisted but not the first one. Fatal blow to Tower was the first CL resisted, not the second one. Resurrection on the Titans wouldn`t have helped much as the Hydras, Clones and Lizards killed alone four Titans (Titans had max health only 210 per Titan due to poison). 6 Hydras, 70 Lizard Warriors, and all of the Greater Basilisks survived.)
I am certain that both sides are balanced.
____________
|
|
Icon
Adventuring Hero
Tower Loving Criminal
|
|
posted December 11, 2001 11:50 PM |
|
|
no comments ...
____________
|
| |
|
|
