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| Thread: Heroes IV: Interpretations |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted November 27, 2001 05:29 PM |
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But all those legs prove that it's not techology. It's magic. That's what the golems are all about.
Just be patient and wait for the background of the Dragon Golem.
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted November 27, 2001 09:44 PM |
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Offtopic: Bonus applied
Kudos to Darion for one of the best anti-Dragon Golem posts. He went into detail of why he doesn't like it, and why he feels it doesn't fit in. A very well-written post. I especially liked the bit at the end. 
On the other hand, Svetac made a darn good defense of the Dragon Golem, and even explained away the shock absorbers. Another nice piece of work.
I'd like to thank all the posters here on the Altar for the overall high quality of posts you continue to make here as well. Makes being a moderator a very happy thing.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted November 27, 2001 11:06 PM |
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wow, the discussion about the dragon golem still going on?
the dragon golem and the vampire -- our first and last defense against the medieval fantasy creatures of the homm world.
and we havn't seen an ogre on a motor bike wielding a chain saw, not only in the animated form, but not even as a motionless screenshot. you know, if it was animated right, it might look really cool! and it would be a strong creature that would kill everything in it's way, so you would love it! and it would surely be a fantasy creature, no doubt about it!
is that the logic of the defenders of the dragon golem?
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actually, the problem with golems in general is that they are cold and metallic, not soft and furry like your pet cat. that's why i think the golems are difficult to appreciate in general. the golems have always been on the border line of being tolerable imho, their existence only and completely excused by the fact that they were magically alive, and that in mythology, statues have become alive sometimes (just remembered a greek myth where a marble statue became alive), or just some living golems were created with some magic. but they were alive, not lifeless and just mechanical.
the dragon golem case is way different. no matter how many times you tell that the springs and the gears are magical, and the gnome controlls the golem in a magical way, i will not believe you. it's just a cold mechacical machine, i say, and the gnome has glasses that are not very magical either. do those springs etc have some philosophical or symbolistic meaning in magic? well, i don't think so. but they do have a meaning in machinery.
and also, those ppl that say that the dragon golem is the same as ballista and even the same as a horse and a rider.. i don't even know how to comment it. how is it even remotely possible to say anything like that? or that the dragon golem will look magical and all those mechanical parts disappear when it's animated.
what's so heroic about mechanics anyway?
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted November 27, 2001 11:31 PM |
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and about the conflux town:
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btw, it's not a weak town at all, i would even say it's overpowered.
1) start with the hero that has logistics (well, not very obligatory, but imho it was quite nice to get a second town the first day).
2) upgrade the sprires and recruit them all (fast, no tetaliation, what more could you wish for?).
3) recruit air elementals if you can. they are pretty decient melee creatures for backing up the upg. sprites imho. and the low leven creatures are fast, and that's extremely important for exploring.
4) go on a rampage the first day and try to get another town.
5) get bless, preferrably with expert water magic (storm elementals have 2..8 damage, ice elementals have 3..7).
6) when you have a sufficient amount of creatures that can be upgraded to shooters, do so.
and the phoenix is the fastest, it is fire resistant, and it's growth rate is double, if you havn't noticed. and the grail effect is the most powerful.
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i have played every town in homm3 and i have liked all of them maybe dungeon a bit less and that's just from the gameplay point of view. and i say the conflux is great for it's concept. i mean the plainswalker concept that is a neutral one that looks at the fighting over the principles that's going on in the world from a distant point of view. i.e. the plainswalker idea was a great addition to the game. and in no other town has the differenciation of might and magic heroes been so radical, and i liked it. the only criticism that the conflux town receives from me is that the roof of the town hall does not look like it's very well rendered, the fire and storm elementals do not look very good, and that the phoenix looks much worse than in homm2 where it was one of the best. and somehow i havn't used the magic elementals much, i.e. the storm, ice, and energy elementals are so powerful until you get the proenix that i have usually missed the magic elementals completely.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted November 28, 2001 02:44 AM |
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I've been thinking...
And thinking. And more thinking.
The forge town was an abhorrence in the altar when it was dreamed up several months ago, although it seems that 3DO have taken a leaf from those very pages and found something in the creation of a dragon golem...
I've read carefully the arguments for and against. Admittedly the idea of a mechanical creation in a fantasy setting is a little bit beyond the boundaries of what most people would expect. The word 'mech' is not a traditional medieval word at all. In fact, I'm not even sure if it existed much before the 18th century...
So a mechanical dragon with the term 'dragon golem' doesn't do much for some opponents of the idea. They see a robot. Everybody does. The picture itself shows pistons quite clearly and the gnome that rides atop it makes the dragon look less magical than it should. How then, can it be magically animated if it requires an operator?
Ahem. I should say "rider", shouldn't I?
I think dragons themselves have been portrayed as traditionally intelligent and self determining, but there has been depictions of dragon riders for a long time. Dragon riders are not the reason for the movement of the dragons, they just control the actions of the dragon itself. This is the sort of logic that you'd normally apply to a wild beast and lately I've been of the favour that dragons really aren't that intelligent (they're lizards after all aren't they?) and perhaps some of them do need guidance...
A dragon golem created from magic, yet looking very much like a creation from the forges of a masterful blacksmith (Blacksmith DaVinci, lol) jangles on everyone's nerves a little bit. Especially the rider, the pistons, the total lack of even the smallest suggestion of magic at work...
If you look at the nature of mechanical things, cars, trucks, robots, etc etc, they all require a power source. This is where I think the magic comes into play. Pistons do not work from the controls of a gnome, pistons and actuators require some form of hydraulic pressure. And hydraulic pressure often comes from an electrical generator.
So perhaps magic is the battery for the golem. Imagine deep underneath the metal and parts and artifice of the creature that there is a throbbing (gee I love that word, lmao!) magical energy source that is used to drive the dragon....
If you look at golems in the traditional sense, they are not intelligent either and most times they are controlled remotely through the mage who created it. The magician who creates the golem must have some sort of telepathic link with the golem itself and he/she must guide the 'puppet' to perform certain actions. Magic alone cannot create the presence of a functional brain. The magician is the brain.
In this case, the magician has allowed a gnomish rider to perform the task of controlling the dragon. Perfectly feasible is it not?
The fact that it was created from metal says nothing of science fiction robotics really. All golems are fashioned from a craftsman before they are imbued with the magical energy to 'make it move'. A sculptor would have created the gold golems, a stonemason would have done the same for the stone golems of H3. Wierd that we can hear the clanking of an Iron Golem (more robotic than a dragon golem by far due to it's human resemblance) and not stir a fuss. Iron golems are no problem...
...but a dragon golem is pushing the limits?
I'm not sure if you have a problem with the dragon's appearance or the presence of a gnomish rider. 3DO have put the rider in to appease the complete absence of fantasy and it is also well known that gnomes are great inventors in fantasy circles. Perhaps it is a bit of a cliche, but then again, I found most of the creatures in the Heroes series to be cliche's too.
Besides, I really don't fancy the idea of a white dragon. Or a purple one. Or any other colour for that matter. The coloured dragons have been done to death and it's about time that we had a dragon that's out of the norm.
*smile*
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2001 03:18 AM |
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Dragon Golem:
Don't have anything more to add to this topic, other than that Hydra's "Wait and see" attitude is applaudable but also waiting to see the "full story" before judgement, it could already be too late, hence being pointless to even talk about it.
Isometric view:
I don't know how it would change gameplay, but I like the look of the units from this perspective. Looks better than a side view of them. The dragons especially look good and perhaps the battlefield has grown large enough that you can scroll it.. Such a large battlefield would look awkward in a side view, as would scrolling. So isometric would do it better.
Conflux:
As with any town, it sure can be used effectively enough that you could find it 'overpowered', but I would say an expert such as yourself (Gerdash) could make the same claim about any town at all. All you have to do is find the right strategy (which not everyone will be able to do). Taking a town on day 1 might be difficult on a lot of maps..
About Phoenix.. The Fire resistance isn't that useful IMO. The Ice and Lightning spells do more damage anyway, so you can just use those instead. (Didn't they have "elemental" resistance in HOMM2?) I forgot how much HP they had, but given that it's lower than most L7s, it means a higher death rate also. Sure they grow faster so you can get more of them, but the 300HP units die less often so you're less likely to lose their numbers than you are with the Phoenix. Phoenix can resurrect but it only seems to happen at random (obviously for balance reasons) so it doesn't really negate their fragility.
They're fast, but the way I play, it doesn't really matter. I wait for the enemy to make their moves first then I attack so that their walkers can't attack me that round. Archangels can also reach the other end of the battlefield, so the extra speed I guess is only indispensible if you want to cast the first spell. You don't need the speed if you want to reach the other end(you can just wait for them to come half way to you, or if you have to, some units are able to reach the other end even without the Phoenix' speed). And if you fly there to attack first, you just make yourself open for the rest of the opponents troops to attack (which the Phoenix doesn't have much HP to withstand).
I could be wrong but from what I last remembered (and it's been a while since I played H3x) "statistically" the Conflux' units seemed inferior to the leading towns.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted November 28, 2001 03:23 AM |
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The Phoenix can resurrect every round if you so wish it to, I think This more than offsets the poor hp that the creature has. I don't know about you, but it's really really difficult trying to take down 30 Phoenixes with 10 Black Dragons, especially when they resurrect all the time.
Conflux, in the hands of a good player is a scary scary town...
Nobody has remarked on my 3D Heroes yet... lol!
*smile*
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted November 28, 2001 07:45 AM |
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Firstly, Congratulations, Svetac and Darion on the Quality Points!
OK, back to the serious talk...
And i'd just like to state one thing. It was a mistake putting Dragon Golems into the initial post. It has sparked a discussion on Heroes IV's most controversial aspect when i hoped it wouldn't...
Shae_Trielle..
As i have said before, it is the net result to what happens in the game. You can't judge something on one whole platform. Fore example. The Dragon Golem is mechanical and that's all there is about it. It doesn't fit.
There is more to that. If you combine all the little things together, and all the aspects, you have a decision. With the isometric view.. would you have it reverted back to the old view, or doesn't it matter? It does add something. It adds extra gameplay, and advanced camera angles so you can see and enjoy combat more. Sometimes, it is the small things that are important......
Svetac:
"THe game gets new, better look, and new better feeling. And it's great refresh after that semi-top down view. About 3D. Who needs 3d? HOMM don't need 3D. And isometric and 3D are really different things. So please don't mess up those two things. Don't add unnecessary confusion where you shouldn't."
That is what i was saying. the semi to view adds flavour and spice to the new heroes game. Ans we've seen, there have been many changes to the game in recent times, and this one has certainly been one of the worthwhile ones.
Yes, they are different. Isometric is a view which lets you see evenly over the whole field, while 3D is actually to do with the items inside the field.
"But all those legs prove that it's not techology. It's magic. That's what the golems are all about.
Just be patient and wait for the background of the Dragon Golem. "
Once again, i have stated this, god minds think alike. 
As i have been saying throughout the entire thread. Give the Dragon Golem a chance. You can't judge a book by its cover. You can't judge the Dragon Golem by its flesh. There is more to it than that. The nature, the background, the battle capabilities. Many more, too.... For some people its the futuristic look that matters...
Gerdash:
"and we havn't seen an ogre on a motor bike wielding a chain saw, not only in the animated form, but not even as a motionless screenshot. you know, if it was animated right, it might look really cool! and it would be a strong creature that would kill everything in it's way, so you would love it! and it would surely be a fantasy creature, no doubt about it!
is that the logic of the defenders of the dragon golem?"
No this is not. There are more aspects to the Dragon Golem than just the look. Its also your own personal feelings about how it is fantastic or not. You yourself must make that judgement.
Clearly, the Dragon Golem has a fantastic aspect to it. It is a Dragon, it is constructed by mages, and is control by an immortal King. This is only the foreground. I wonder how much we will know when it finally surfaces...
Shae_Trielle..
"I've read carefully the arguments for and against. Admittedly the idea of a mechanical creation in a fantasy setting is a little bit beyond the boundaries of what most people would expect. The word 'mech' is not a traditional medieval word at all. In fact, I'm not even sure if it existed much before the 18th century...
So a mechanical dragon with the term 'dragon golem' doesn't do much for some opponents of the idea. They see a robot. Everybody does. The picture itself shows pistons quite clearly and the gnome that rides atop it makes the dragon look less magical than it should. How then, can it be magically animated if it requires an operator?
Ahem. I should say "rider", shouldn't I?"
What do you think they use for the mana vortex, that is from the future and is defintely made from steel, is it not? How many of the buildings are made from steel? What about the Knight town in HoMM2, emany things were made of steel. But then you would say it is not mechanical. I know, but that's where the mages come in. They could have brought the Dragon Golem to life, and King Magnus may be the person that harnesses its immense power. Is that feasible?
Jenova:
"on't have anything more to add to this topic, other than that Hydra's "Wait and see" attitude is applaudable but also waiting to see the "full story" before judgement, it could already be too late, hence being pointless to even talk about it."
Already be too late? No, if it was too late, we wouldn't be discussing things about it and trying to find other possible information that could further uncover the mysteries if the Dragon Golem.
I too am getting a bit tired of talking about this monstrosity.
" don't know how it would change gameplay, but I like the look of the units from this perspective. Looks better than a side view of them. The dragons especially look good and perhaps the battlefield has grown large enough that you can scroll it.. Such a large battlefield would look awkward in a side view, as would scrolling. So isometric would do it better."
Right, it does look better, also enhancing view, since all of the screen is viewable from the same angle. The new angle also allows for obstacles to be seen more clearly, and would have a great effect of Chain Lightning, because you'll actually be able to see where the closest creature is. Thus, helping you to see which creature to cast it on. All small things combine until it gradually makes a difference. 1 grain of sand in the bucket can make a lot of difference.
Edited in Concern to Gerdash's Comment.
Is it too late to change anything now?
If we were to make judgements on creatures and units, we should have made them months ago, since that is when the game was still in the making.
So i suppose we have no choice BUT to wait and see....
We could all think of it as a test. Will it prove its worth?
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted November 28, 2001 12:49 PM |
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Quote:
Dragon Golem:
Isometric view:
I don't know how it would change gameplay, but I like the look of the units from this perspective. Looks better than a side view of them. The dragons especially look good and perhaps the battlefield has grown large enough that you can scroll it.. Such a large battlefield would look awkward in a side view, as would scrolling. So isometric would do it better.
Luckily, there won't be scrolling on the battlefield.
They said that the battlefield has grown in terms of hexes, but it hasn't grown in sheer size. Instead the hexes are now smaller, and this is giving th designers opportunity to do two things better:
1. More creature sizes - Cyclops now takes up more than one hex, while Leprechaun takes less than the Cyclops.
2. Not all the 4th level creatures can now travel the whole distance in one turn.
I think this kinda approach will add new tactics to the game. As for the scrolling - we don't need it. Why complicate things, when we can have everything from the battle on one screen?
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2001 02:28 PM |
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"Conflux, in the hands of a good player is a scary scary town..."
It's the same argument that can be said about any crap thing really. A good player can do anything. Anything. Someone who is better than me made that same claim about the Fortress (or whatever it's called -- the town with the Hydra). For you street fighter fans, Dhalsim in the hands of a good player can also be really scary..
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted November 28, 2001 06:35 PM |
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the hydra:
when we see the dragon golem in the game already, can things still be changed then? what more do we have to wait and see? an explanation that the order town mastered time travel (an advanced form of portal) and their gnomes learned their tech from modern engineers? of course sth like that would explain why there are high-tech parts while the dragon golem is still not practical compared to tanks and the like, but rather was created somewhat in the way to impress the medieval ppl. but what if i and some other ppl don't like not only the shiny tech instead of artwork, but maybe also the idea of time travel? who do you think will wipe our tears then?
shae-trielle:
so.. from modern physics we know that perpetum mobile contradicts the basic laws of thermodynamics, so there has to be an energy source (quite a few modern words already, and more to come).
simple -- the dragon golem is powered by a tiny atomic reactor. other ppl in the medieval times thought that it was pure magic, but the gnomes had accidentally discovered how to make it. also, considering that the nuclear-powered dragon golem is already in the game, it's quite logical that e.g. the black dragons were created by the sorcerers through genetic experiments on.. you know what.. dinosaurs, of course! that's why it doesn't fit in the atmosphere.
where i agree with you is that a dragon golem idea is probably more interesting than a white or blue etc dragon, but only as long as there are no modern style shock absorbers.
also, if some magican was able to animate a dragon statue, the best artists would be hired to create it's body (seems to be the case with the less powerful gold golem). but the present one does not seem to be a work of art (except 3d art), but most effort is made to create the shiny machinery.
and.. there are many ways to create an original and monstrous enough dragon golem without high-tech. e.g. by making a modified (simplified or more decorated) metallic carcase of a bone dragon and including only the few most essential metallic muscles. sth like the anatomical pictures of muscles of the body, but bit simplified and more monstrous.
if it absolutely has to be a gnomish invention that moves the same way as early flying machines (which actually didn't fly, but were believed to fly until they were tested), i.e. a tech fantasy brought into life the medieval way (no shock absorbers, please), maybe it could have a similar style as the medieval knight's heavy armor, but surely it would have to be decorated with golden ornaments, etc (instead of modern style tech-mech steel springs), and the best goldsmiths and jewellers should decorate it's face with good style (instead of those tech-mech pipes, etc).
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jenova:
maybe i was exaggerating by saying about conflux that 'i would even say it's overpowered.' it's just that you said it was weak. well.. i guess i should rather say that the conflux is overpowered in too many situations. this situation was just an example of one. e.g. when i play an impossible map i might want to start with a money-generating hero instead of a logistics one, etc. but i still think that the conflux can get the resources and conquer the first town the fastest and easiest with only some minor risk of failure. hmm.. btw the fastest unit in the game with fire resistance is still very significant imho, especially remembering that the strongest mage is the elementalist, so you have a possibility to get a fast-travelling army with armageddon. actually, i do not have massive comparison statistics of conflux against other towns, because i (we) do not cosider it very honorable to pick conflux if the opponent wants to choose another town type. of course, i have never played a larger than medium map in multilayer. i don't even think you would need the hands of a good player for the conflux, if you know what the rather simple things are that you can do with it. btw i also had serious trouble with it and thought that it was the most challenging town until i found the suitable attitude, and then it was just too easy to play.
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DarkTitan
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2001 02:09 AM |
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My interpretation
I'd just like to step in and say a few words.
I think everybody is right in their own oppinions but it is not a matter of that; it is a matter if it is right for Heroes 4! Would you rather have a steel monstrosity or a crafty creation by mages?
It really depends on what the dragon golem feels like to you. I think yes it is good to have a change but not one as radical as the Forge town in Heroes 3
Thanx,
Dark Titan
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Wyvern
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2001 08:02 PM |
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Well... Many people here talk about the Dragon Golem, I hope that I can make interpretations about something different.
Heroes can only attack or only cast a spell but not both of them - this may seem unfair but it is actually a very good thing because otherwise your heroes would be unbeatable. Imagine that you kill almost all enemy's creatures with a powerful spell and then attack with the hero what has remained... There has to be a chance for the enemy to react!
Shooters can countershoot when shooted by other shooters - this is almost the same as the counterstrike but... I have to say that is very illogical. When you attack a creature, it is normal that it counterstrikes because it is directly in front of you and it's easy to hit you. But when a shooter from the ine end of the battleground shoots at another shooter in the other end, it is not so obvious that the latter will countershoot - if he has the chance to do that shooting, he would maybe prefer to shoot at creatures at a near distance and not in the other end!
When the shooters shoot at a creature that is behind another creature, the latter will be hit - this is very logical and is a good feature of the game but I don't know when does it work. For example, if your shooters are exactly behind another your unit and shoot at the other end of the battleground, will they hit their fellows? I think this should not be so - the shooters can shoot over the heads of the units exactly in front of them. This is available in Age of Wonders.
...and many more interpretations which I may write in the future.
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Xenophanes
Promising
Famous Hero
Chief Consul to Queen Mutare
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posted December 01, 2001 06:10 PM |
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I like the Dragon Golem unit itself. However, I think it should look more "golem-like." It does look too Techno right now, even for someone like Gavin Magnus. Of course, I can see how all his Alchemists and Wizards could have dreamed one up; Academy isn't called Academy for nothing!
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<Dragons rule, Titans drool!>
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted December 02, 2001 02:34 AM |
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Thankyou all for your opinions...
It is great to have such detailed responses from all of you.
DarkTitan:
Yes, it is what it feels like to you, but you must take other peoples opinions into account. You may like it, but the majority may not.
How many times do you see people saying that the Dragon Golem is too advanced? Maybe from their perspective.
Although, if you take everything into account, the Academy name, the creatures, the past creatures, and the capabilities of the heroes in the town.
It all ads up if you think about. It was only a matter of time before the intelligent mages at the Academy thought of how to expand the idea of Iron Golems.
Wyvern:
Ah, it is nice to see somebody talking about an aspect of Heroes IV other than Dragon Golems.
Yes, heroes, may only perform one skill in combat at any given time, otherwise the power when at high levels will almost make heroes invincible. Their power would easily exceed that of a Black Dragon, so you can dismiss the part about heroes being weak.
Plus, Barbarians gain 60 HP per level and the others 20 I think.
Yes, two powerful attacks would definitely be too much for an orc to handle. Or any of the other creatures for that matter.
Shooters counterstriking against each other does not make sense, as you, Wyvern has commented.
It does state that shooters have 12 or 24 shots. But, when they use one in retaliation; it simply doesn't count. Since shooters have an advantage that they can attack creatures better suited to garrison very well, since they are slow, and cannot reach them in time. So along with the 1/2 damage ailment, shooters could also have no retaliation, but only when shooting, not hand to hand.
Hmmm, maybe you could introduce a new secondary skill named accuracy, since Wyvern mentioned the shooters not hitting their marks all the time. It could be like ballistics, but with shooters, so the accuracy and proficiency if their shoots increases.
Xenophanes:
I agree, the Dragon Golem looks allright.
Well, it depends on your definiton of 'Golem Like' but i can see where you are coming from.
Yes, a valid point, Alchemists, the people who create the Dragon Golem, and the Wizards, the ones who help with the magical aspects, could have certainly had a thought of building one of these monstrous creatures.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted December 03, 2001 07:07 PM |
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the retaliating system, i.e. shooters retaliating shooters.. wouldn't it reduce the battle tactics..? are things going toward an economical game? i mean, with the resources needed to construct a mine, etc.. it is difficult to comment on that, but if you remove all possibilities to defeat your opponents by specializing on sth, e.g. amassing shooters, doesn't the fun factor suffer from it? wasn't it one of the best fun you culd have with the inferno that you could amass some 500+ demons from low level creatures in homm3? or trapping you opponents with dendroids so that the grand elves will be safe? i guess there will be many new ways how to do sth interesting with spells, but will they be as good as the old ones..
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hmm.. havn't said anything about the dragon golem in this post..
if the dragon golem stays the way it is, homm4 will not be a homm game anymore.. i.e. the whole concept of the game would change (for the worse) imho.
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