|
| Thread: The complete hero list including all 37 advanced classes... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
|
Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
|
posted October 20, 2001 11:02 PM |
bonus applied. |
|
The complete hero list including all 37 advanced classes...
...is about to be made. I don't got the list yet, but I'm trying to make it, and need your help. I already got a few ideas from StormWarning's old thread, and I had some myself.
Warning! The rest of this thread is only a few facts, and mostly my thoughts, so don't believe everything you read!
To make things more complicated, let's begin with the starting caracters. The official text :
"11 starting Hero Classes (Fighter, Priest, Lord, Enchanter, Warrior, Necromancer, Rouge, Sorcerer, Archer, Shaman, Barbarian), each with two starting skills, and 37 advanced Hero Classes."
So what we've got is this list of heroes (each with two skills):
Fighter
Priest
Lord
Enchanter
Warrior
Necromancer
Rouge
Sorcerer
Archer
Shaman
Barbarian
Now, if you take them in the same order (as I found them on CHU), and put some town names in between, you get what towns the starting classes belongs too. This way, we are back at the HoMM3 system, with a might hero and a magic hero for each town (note, the barbarians are for Stronghold, but this town may also hire any of the other 11 starting classes). The text says that each hero starts with two skills. This cannot be two primary skills, cause we've got heroes like enchanters (with enchantment as secondary skill) and archer (with archery as secondary skill). Therefor, starting classes will begin with one primary and one secondary skill (the primary is needed to get the secondary). For those who don't know anything about the skill system or just forgot, I'll post it here:
Tactics - Tactics, Offense, Defense, Leadership
Combat - Combat, Toughness, Archery, Magic Resistance
Scouting - Scouting, Pathfinding, Seamanship, Stealth
Nobility - Nobility, Estates, Mining, Diplomacy
Life - Life Magic, Healing, Spirituality, Resurrection
Order - Order Magic, Enchantment, Wizardry, Charm
Death - Death Magic, Occultism, Demonology, Necromancy
Chaos - Chaos Magic, Conjuration, Pyromancy, Sorcery
Nature - Nature Magic, Herbalism, Meditation, Summoning
For details, see Djive's primary skill analysis threads.
Back to the idea of placing the classes in specific towns:
Town
Might Hero (primary skill guess, secondary skill guess)
Magic Hero (primary skill guess, secondary skill guess)
Haven
Fighter (combat, toughness)
Priest (life, healing)
Academy
Lord (nobility, estates)
Enchanter (order, enchantment)
Necropolis
Warrior (tactics, offense)
Necromancer (death, necromancy)
Asylum
Rouge (scouting, stealth)
Sorcerer (chaos, sorcery)
Preserve
Archer (combat, archery)
Shaman (nature, meditation)
Stronghold
Barbarian (combat, toughness, resistance)
Any other starting class
If this is right (of course it is  ), let's jump to the advanced classes. They are created by mixing two primary skills, and will be "upgrades" of the starting classes. The official text from an interview with Maranthea:
"There are 11 starting hero classes and 37 advanced hero classes. Starting classes are very basic, and the ones you have available are dependent on what town type you start with. In order to get an advanced class, you need to become fairly proficient in two of the primary skills. For example, a combination of proficiency in death and order magic will turn your hero into a necromancer. If you start mixing life magic and combat, you have yourself a paladin. If you are good at both death magic and combat, your hero becomes an assassin. The only character class that requires more than two skills is the archmage, for which you need proficiency in three schools of magic."
This means, that the second primary skill your hero learns, will decide which advanced class him/her "changes" too. If fx. your priest learns the art of combat, he becomes a paladin. Now he's a paladin the rest of the game nomatter what skills he will learn afterworths. Only if he learns two other magic schools, he will become an archmage. This means that Fiona here,..
click for picture
...probably started as a necromancer, then was offered the skill of tactics, and became a reaver (it's tactics and not combat, because death magic and combat makes your hero an assassin). This also means that the skills on the screen, are not ordered by when you learn them, but by the normal order (tactics, combat, nobility, scouting, life, order, death, chaos, nature), and Fiona first had death magic, then she learned tactics, then combat and then pyromancy (she doesn't know chaos magic, but has probably learned pyromancy at some adventure map sight).
According to Maranthea's little speech above, the necromancer is also an advanced hero class. So some of the starting caracters (maybe them all?) will also appear as advanced heroes. It may sound strange, but just mean that if you got a starting necromancer with death magic, you can choose oder magic as your second primary skill and then your necromancer is still a necromancer.
The caracters shown on the official site are: Barbarian, Death Knight, Knight, Lord, Mage, Necromancer, Priest, Sorcerer/Sorceress and Thief. So I'll try to include them on the advanced list.
Now the funny part begins (for those who didn't already fall asleep). Beneath is the advanced list as I would make it. As you can see, it's not finished yet, but I hoped you would help, or bring up some constructive criticism. Heroes wrote like this are confirmed. All the others are just guesses.
Hero Type
Skill/Skill: Hero Class (skills, they probably will learn easily / reason why I think they fit here)
Might Heroes: (6) not associated with any specific town types
Combat/Tactics: Barbarian (every fighter skill and resistance)
Combat/Nobility: General (combat, nobility, estates, diplomacy)
Combat/Scouting: Planeswalker (scouting, pathfinding)
Tactics/Nobility: Diplomat (leadership, nobility, diplomacy)
Tactics/Scouting: Strategist (offense, defense, leadership, scouting, pathfinding, diplomacy)
Nobility/Scouting:
Magic Heroes: (11) associated with two town types each
Any 3 magic schools: Archmage (any secondary magic skills)
Order/Life: Wizard (wizardry, charm, enchantment, beneficial/healing spells)
Order/Nature: Elementalist (enchantment, charm, summoning)
Order/Chaos: Mage (wizardry, charm, enchantment, sorcery)
Order/Death: Necromancer (entchantment, necromancy, occultism)
Life/Nature: Druid (healing, herbalism, summoning)
Life/Chaos: Rebel Mage (healing, sorcery)
Life/Death: Fate Master (resurrection, occultism, necromancy)
Nature/Chaos: Witch* (herbalism, conjuration, sorcery)
Nature/Death: Demonologist (summoning, demonology)
Chaos/Death: Warlock (sorcery, pyromancy, occultism)
Might and Magic: (20)
Academy:
Order/Combat: Alchemist (enchantment, magic resistance, combat)
Order/Tactics:
Order/Nobility: Lord (estates, nobility, diplomacy)
Order/Scouting:
Haven:
Life/Combat: Paladin (healing, spirituality, combat)
Life/Tactics: Knight (life, offense, defense, leadership)
Life/Nobility: Priest (estates, diplomacy, healing, spirituality, resurrection)
Life/Scouting: Prophet (life, scouting, pathfinding)
Preserve
Nature/Combat: Shaman (meditation, herbalism, toughness, magic resistance)
Nature/Tactics: Forest Guard (herbalism, summoning, defense, leadership)
Nature/Nobility: Robin Hood (estates... hmm.. maybe he don't fit here...)
Nature/Scouting: Ranger (herbalism, scouting, pathfinding)
Asylum
Chaos/Combat: Overlord (combat, toughness)
Chaos/Tactics: Sorcerer and Sorceress (sorcery, occultism, offense)
Chaos/Nobility:
Chaos/Scouting: Thief (stealth)
Necropolis
Death/Combat: Assassin (occultism, combat, archery)
Death/Tactics: Reaver (occultism, necromancy, tactics)
Death/Nobility:
Death/Scouting: Death Knight (necromancy, pathfinding, stealth)
*About the witch, if the hero is male, what is replacement for witch then?
|
|
Jenova
Famous Hero
|
posted October 21, 2001 05:08 AM |
|
|
About that pic.. the skills located up the top (in blue) are they the primary skills? If so, then it looks like you can only have 4 and not 5..
When your hero changes "class" that unlocks new secondary skills does it?
____________
|
|
UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 05:48 AM |
|
|
I believe the primary skills run down the left hand side, thus Fiona would seem to have as primary skills:
Tactics
Combat
Death Magic
Chaos Magic
(empty slot, as it looks like she's decided on Toughness rather than Order magic)
My guess is she started as a warrior and went from there, based soley on the fact that it would be easier to program the skill slots to fill the matrix top to bottom than it would be to re-sort every time you add a primary skill, but that's just a guess. And, based on the magic schools here, it's fairly obvious that she was hired in as a Necropolis hero. (Death allied with Chaos and Order)
____________
Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
|
|
The_Blue_Camel
Adventuring Hero
Bearer of the Mighty Camelnor
|
posted October 21, 2001 06:13 AM |
|
|
good question preserver...
QUOTE....
"*Sorry for the good witch, bad witch thing, but I couldn't come up with a good name. Also, if the hero is male, what is replacement for witch then? "
well, traditionally a male witch was a warlock (thats what warlock literally means) but, obviously, we cant have that since warlock is a different class... so i dont know
|
|
niteshade
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 07:25 AM |
|
|
|
Great job Preserver. While I don't much opinion on the advanced classes, your info on the basic classes is very well thought out and pretty much the same as my thoughts as well.
|
|
ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 10:01 AM |
|
|
Hmmmmmmm... this is all rather interesting. Good job, Preserver.
Although, what does herbalism got to do with battle??
The heroes are very well thought out onto which places there are.
I heard Jihad could be one of the skills in life or order.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
|
|
Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
|
posted October 21, 2001 10:54 AM |
|
|
Some replies...
Jenova:
When your hero learns a new primary skill (and that's also what happens when the hero changes class, yes), the secondary skills of the primary skill learned becomes available. That means that Fiona had to learn the primary skill Combat before she learned Toughness, Archery and Resistance. So it's right that new skills become available when your hero changes to an advanced hero. The skills available (or easy to learn) also depends on what on the caracter (a necromancer will learn the death magic skills much faster than the order and combat skills).
UnkaHaakon:
I don't believe the skills is sorted by when a they are learned. That would make Fiona a barbarian (she started as a barbarian with the tactics skill and advanced to barbarian by learning combat (the next skill on the screenshot)). A reaver has something to do with death magic and necropolis. It could never be an ordinary might hero. You are right she could have started as a warrior (with tactics) and then learned she became a reaver (learned death magic).
The only logical explanation on the order of the skills on the screenshot would be that they are always sorted the same way:
Tactics
Combat
Scouting
Nobility
Life
Order
Death
Chaos
Nature
And Fiona's skills are also sorted this way:
Tactics
Combat
Death
Pyromancy (secondary to chaos)
If now she chose order magic instead of basic toughness, death and chaos would be moved down on the screen:
Tactics
Combat
Order
Death
Pyromancy
This way is the easiest way to quickly get a general view of the hero, and you know that might skills are always in top. It's the same princip as the buildings placed the way in different towns.
The_Blue_Camel:
I didn't knew about the warlock thing, but in HoMM3, there was a female warlock too (Sephinroth). The witches though were only female (balanced by all the beastmasters being male).
niteshade:
Thanks... It's nice to hear I'm not the only one ...
ThE_HyDrA:
I thank you too and about the herbalism, it got nothing to do with battle. It's a secondary skill to nature magic (check the "primary skill analysis: nature" thread)
Jihad a skill? Do you mean a hero or a skill? It can't be a skill, cause it's not on the skill list... I don't know if it could be a hero...
Everybody:
I would really appreciate if you came up with some ideas for the advanced list... (the reason why I made this thread)
____________
- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
|
|
Dajek
Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 12:28 PM |
|
|
'I think shamans have herbalism...
____________
________ _ _
|
|
Jenova
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 12:53 PM |
|
|
How many times can a hero change class in their career?
____________
|
|
Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 12:54 PM |
|
|
Dajek:
Yeah, I wasn't sure about this one. Either they should have meditation, herbalism or summoning. First I thought meditation did fit well. I actually called my dad (he know alot about mental and religious stuff and is also doing meditation), and he told me that shamans wasn't really meditating. They were spiritual in a way, and it had a something to do with meditation, but not the way buddists is meditating. I don't think 3DO are not going so much in details about such things (like the angel/devil discussion), and just gave the shaman meditation and made him/her the spiritual leader of Preserve. Of course the shaman could start with herbalism too (I don't know much about shamans, someone help me), and then learn meditation afterworths. I just thought herbalism was more druidic... (?)
Jenova:
The most normal is one time (from starting class to advanced). The highest number of changes is two:
1: Basic magic hero (one primary magic skill)
2: Advanced magic hero (two primary magic skills)
3: Archmage (three primary magic skills)
Example (according to my guesses):
1: Shaman (nature magic)
2: Druid (nature and life magic)
3: Archmage (nature, life and chaos magic)
____________
- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
|
|
Jenova
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 02:47 PM |
|
|
This system sounds quite complex.. You sure people will be able to pick this up easily?
____________
|
|
Carz
Hired Hero
for taming Dragons
|
posted October 21, 2001 02:57 PM |
|
Edited By: Carz on 21 Oct 2001
|
Great work dude. It'll turn out to be great. Kool guesses.
I'm impressed
(By the way, Fiona was an inferno hero in HoMM3, they're just giving you that screen there from Beta version)
Hey I gotta ask where did you get THAT screenshot from anyway?
Jenova, goto [url=http://www.strategyplanet.com/homm/academy.shtml]Celestial Heavens Unleashed[/url] and goto the FAQ for Heroes IV and you'll find tons of info... and you could also view the creatures there too. You played Heroes 3 right? You'll need the experience.
It's good how they change the whole system of Primary Skills and Secondary Skills, and for those who doesn't like the new system, ask yourself, if there wasn't this kool new system, wouldn't there be less kool changes?
Thanx preserver for the estimates that you have made, we appreciate it.
I remember reading from somewhere, that only when you are an enchanter that has all five magic schools will you be turned into an archmage. Is this correct? I think I got that information from the 6 page gamespot preview.
Thanx fa readin, dudes!!!!
Carz
|
|
Wyvern
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 05:18 PM |
|
|
OK, let me try...
Combat/Nobility: Noble
Tactics/Scouting: Strateg (I'm not sure about this word)
Nobility/Scouting: Robin Hood!
Order/Tactics: Tactician
Order/Scouting: Scout
Nature/Tactics: Sharpshooter
Nature/Nobility: Forester
Chaos/Nobility: Ronin
Death/Nobility: Death Noble
Anyway, I don't believe that those exactly will be the names.
|
|
Preserver
Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 05:57 PM |
|
|
Carz:
Thanks for the kind words... The screenshot I got from tothegame.com ...I cropped the image myself so only the important stuff was visible. It's right that if your hero has all five schools of magic, he/she is an archmage. But as you can read in my quote from Maranthea, three schools are enough.
Wyvern:
I like your proposals. I never thought anybody would give me any ... However, some of them are a bit strange/funny, but I used three of them (strategist, robin hood and sharpshooter, which I called forest guard cause it sounds better) and came up with one new myself (warlord).
____________
- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -
|
|
Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
|
|
posted October 21, 2001 09:08 PM |
|
Edited By: Djive on 21 Oct 2001
|
He he... I made a long reply ...
... to Preserver's mega post.
First some small additions to the basic hero classes, and where information on it can be found.
Haven
**Warrior (tactics, offence) => Heroes 4 Beta
Priest (life, healing) => Heroes 4 Beta
Recruit some Hero types in Academy and/or Preserve
Academy
Lord (nobility, estates) => Heroes 4 Beta
Enchanter (order, enchantment)
Recruit some Hero types in Haven and/or Necropolis
Necropolis
**Fighter (tactics, offence)
Necromancer (death, occultism) => Heroes 4 Beta
Recruit some Hero types in Academy and/or Asylum
Asylum
Rouge (scouting, stealth)
Sorcerer (chaos, sorcery)
Recruit some Hero types in Necropolis and/or Preserve
Preserve
Archer (combat, archery)
Shaman (nature, meditation)
Recruit some Hero types in Haven and/or Asylum
Stronghold
Barbarian (tactics, offense, defence)
Any other starting class
The Barbarians can likely be recruited in any town.
I tend to agree with Preserver's allocation. The only switch I can see is of the Fighter and the Warrior. Warrior sounds more appropriate for the Haven hero. Also if you look at who's going to recruit warriors it sounds better with Academy / Haven / Preserve than Academy / Asylum / Necropolis. Asylum = Gutter slum = fighters. Haven = honourable crusaders = warriors. I switched the names Fighter and Warrior in your list. I also made their abilities identical... What differs for them is the chances their classes have to learn magic skills. (Just a guess.)
As for the skill allocation. Preserver's guess is as good as anyone's else.
"This means, that the second primary skill your hero learns, will decide which advanced class him/her "changes" too. If fx. your priest learns the art of combat, he becomes a paladin. Now he's a paladin the rest of the game no matter what skills he will learn afterworths. Only if he learns two other magic schools, he will become an Archmage."
=> There's one important addition to make here. In order to qualify for an advanced class you need the Primary skill at Expert or better. This means that the second Primary skill does not necessarily set your class, and also that you're not guaranteed that the primary skill you start with is going to be one of the two skills that are part of your advanced class.
=> For this reason I tend to believe UnkaHaakon comments are right. Fiona still only qualifies for one advanced class: Tactics (Expert), Death Magic (Master). Combat (Advanced) and Chaos magic (Basic) is not developed enough. (And yeah Unka has this comment as well: It's almost assuredly Chaos magic and not Pyromancy.)
=> Finally I believe Unka is right about the Fiona's first skill. The table is almost certainly showing Fiona's primary skills in the order she gets them. In my opinion Fiona started out with Tactics and probably Offence (She's already Grand Master in Offence)
But: Reaver = Tactics + Death Magic (This we agree about)
"According to Maranthea's little speech above, the necromancer is also an advanced hero class. So some of the starting characters (maybe them all?) will also appear as advanced heroes. It may sound strange, but just mean that if you got a starting necromancer with death magic, you can choose order magic as your second primary skill and then your necromancer is still a necromancer."
About the Necromancer: It probably has to be that way. Once you choose Death Magic and advance enough in it you have to become a Necromancer because the price you pay for the power of Death Magic is undeath. (I'm a bit unsure how this will work out with qualifying for the title of Archmage, and a Necromancer mastering say Combat and Tactics... Will he suddenly become living again???)
Ok. Here's a new list. I hope I've excluded all the duplicates in this list... (And this is just all guesses. )
Might Heroes: (6)
Combat/Tactics: Tactician
Combat/Nobility: Warlord
Combat/Scouting: Pathfinder
Tactics/Nobility: Knight
Tactics/Scouting: Ranger
Nobility/Scouting: Diplomat
Magic Heroes: (11)
Any 3 magic schools: Archmage
Order/Life: Illusionist
Order/Nature: Ovinomancer
Order/Chaos: Demoniac
Order/Death: Doommage
Life/Nature: Druid
Life/Chaos: Wizard
Life/Death: Planeswalker
Nature/Chaos: Witch-Warlock
Nature/Death: Elementalist
Chaos/Death: Heretic
Might and Magic: (20)
Academy:
Order/Combat: Alchemist
Order/Tactics: Charmer
Order/Nobility: Magnalord
Order/Scouting: Conjurer
Haven:
Life/Combat: Paladin
Life/Tactics: Diviner
Life/Nobility: Monk
Life/Scouting: Cleric
Preserve
Nature/Combat: Battlemage
Nature/Tactics: Summoner
Nature/Nobility: Preserver
Nature/Scouting: Game-keeper / Hunter
Asylum
Chaos/Combat: Overlord
Chaos/Tactics: Abjurer
Chaos/Nobility: Firelord
Chaos/Scouting: Thief
Necropolis
Death/Combat: Assassin
Death/Tactics: Reaver
Death/Nobility: Death Knight
Death/Scouting: Lich
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
|
|
DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
|
posted October 21, 2001 09:14 PM |
|
|
Great work, Prez!
Here's a thought:
Order/Scouting: Seer
...or perhaps not...
...or what about:
Death/Nobility: Night Lord (or equivalent)
...blah... ...I'm not very good at this...
...all the more credit to Preserver...
____________
There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
|
|
Jenova
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 22, 2001 04:32 AM |
|
|
It seems with every sequel, the series gets less and less intuitive. I've played HOMM3, but I don't think having experience with it is really going to be helpful in HOMM4 because quite a lot of things have changed. I checked out a lot of info, but it isn't complete (and neither is the game) so there are still many things left hanging in my head. Perhaps all the answers are right there in front of me, but my reading comprehension sucks..
Do primary skills have levels just like the secondary skills (Beginner, Advanced, Expert, Master, etc..)? Why not just make the whole thing secondary skills.. They act just like one.
What would happen if you advanced only your primary skills on level up, and never choose any new secondary skills? Would you have a more or less, useless character?
____________
|
|
maStErGenIe
Adventuring Hero
Genie taking the Smeg!!!
|
|
posted October 22, 2001 02:05 PM |
|
|
Jenova: i think that you're right about being skilled in HOMM3 not helping in HOMM4, but then if you want a game just like HOMM3 then you should probably stick with HOMM3
uhh... it is possible to upgrade just your primarcy skills.. but because you only have 5.. or is it 4?? well whatever.. because you only have a certain amount, if you only upgrade the primary skills, eventually they'll all be grandmaster, and you'll have no choice but to choose your secondary skills...
____________
 ~maStERgENiE~
|
|
Jenova
Famous Hero
|
|
posted October 22, 2001 03:21 PM |
|
|
What I meant was.. it's confusing.
The primary skills are really no different to the secondary skills. They offer some new abilities and can be improved with levels (advanced, expert, master, grand master) just like secondary skills.. They behave just like secondary skills.. why not just make them secondary skills?? Change primary skills into something else, so there's less confusion.
The way I understand it, Primary skills are just secondary skills which serve the purpose of unlocking new skills down the "tree". They can find a better way to do this. Is there really much relation between Scouting, Pathfinding, Stealth, and Seamanship? They all fit a similar "purpose" but Scouting and Seamanship are about as close fitting as Stealth and Seamanship, so why not just make Scouting (and all other primary skills) a secondary skill? Or rename Scouting into something else.
Anyway, hopefully the game won't turn out to be too difficult to get into for newbies. I only referred to my game manuals when I needed to. I relied on the right click info for everything else. I don't want to have to read the entire manual before playing it.
____________
|
|
niteshade
Known Hero
|
|
posted October 22, 2001 07:09 PM |
|
|
I don't see the game being too difficult for newbies, the skill system isn't really all that different then it was in H3, it just has more depth to it and you can't be a master of everything as easily any more.
By the way one important thing to remember about primary skills is that sometimes they have prerequisites to advance. For example you can't get grandmaster life magic without (I think) grandmaster spiritualism and grandmaster healing. Presumably other levels of life magic will have requirements too.
|
| |
|
|
