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| Thread: Final verdict on alternate upgrades? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted April 17, 2008 12:24 AM |
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@DarkShadow - Yes, most of what you say is true, but, overall, the Necropolis Upgrades and Alts are quite possibly the most balanced of the game (except for the Lich Masters: the Spellpower formula makes them far too imba) Each of the necro units have their own special uses, so I call this lineup "successful". Well, while I'm at it, I'll give my run-down.
Haven - As the units were introduced into the game in Hammers of Fate, I'd say they were pretty successful. The only problem would probably be the Seraphs (Divine Vengeance Imba).
Verdict - Successful
Inferno - Nice overall, but lack the pallor to make the Inferno more versatile. However, some honorable mentions are the Horned Leaper and Succubus Mistress.
Verdict - Unsuccessful
Academy - Well, they started the game imba, and finished the game imba. They have the most versatily now, and have excellent ranged capabilities. This makes them a heavy hitter without even charging into the midst of battle.
Verdict - Successful
Necropolis - They now have more "brunt" units, and they can now withstand bigger threats quite easily despite their feebleness.
Verdict - Successful
Sylvan - Well, at first, they were quite nice, with a good bit of power and tactical prowess. Now, they are powerhouses with great abilities to kick them into overdrive. Also, the are quite imba.
Verdict - Unsuccessful
Dungeon - This is where the best alts are, imho. They now have tactics to creep like there's no tommorow. Great and powerful, but not too imba due to costs and growth.
Verdict - Successful
Fortress - The defense powerhouses got even more defensive. Its like attacking a rock for a marshmellow inside of it. Their too indestructible, with quite a lot of resistance. Its too much coating, not enough claw.
Verdict - Unsuccessful
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted April 17, 2008 12:41 AM |
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I actually thought fortress had the best implemented o nes.
All of them are more offensive , How can you say they got tougher?
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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DarkShadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted April 17, 2008 06:51 AM |
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Not to mention fortress build's 1 week slower due to cost's.
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 07:51 PM |
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Quote:
I actually thought fortress had the best implemented o nes.
All of them are more offensive , How can you say they got tougher?
Yes, the only upgrade I can think of that has gotten more defensive is the Battlerager compared to the Berserker.
Anyway, I think that alternate upgrades are nice, but some are so clearly more powerful than their counterpart that it makes said counterpart completely obsolete.
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tb5841
Hired Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 08:39 PM |
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I thought Inferno had the best alternate upgrades. Apart from Firehounds - and perhaps Hell Stallions - all their upgrades are fairly balanced, and more interesting than those for most towns.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I actually thought fortress had the best implemented o nes.
All of them are more offensive , How can you say they got tougher?
Yes, the only upgrade I can think of that has gotten more defensive is the Battlerager compared to the Berserker.
maybe because...
shield guard : defensive. mountain guard : defensive
skirmisher : defensive. harpoonner : balanced
black bear rider : defensive. white bear rider : defensive
berserker : offensive. battle rager : balanced
rune patriarch : balanced (?) rune keeper : balanced (?)
flame lord : defensive. thunder thane : defensive
magma dragon : defensive. lava dragon : defensive
offensive = 1
balanced = 4
defensive = 9
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SirJohn
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 11:00 PM |
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I like them and don't really care if they are not perfectly balanced.
The problem I have is so little chance you can gather additional troops by diplomacy now. First of all, all classes are more creature-specific than before, so usually it's just not worth it to let creatures from another faction join you.
Now add to this that even creatures from your own town only have a one-third chance of being the creature type you already have. It makes diplomacy very weak.
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Thanatos
Known Hero
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posted April 17, 2008 11:02 PM |
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Edited by Thanatos at 23:09, 17 Apr 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I actually thought fortress had the best implemented o nes.
All of them are more offensive , How can you say they got tougher?
Yes, the only upgrade I can think of that has gotten more defensive is the Battlerager compared to the Berserker.
maybe because...
shield guard : defensive. mountain guard : defensive
skirmisher : defensive. harpoonner : balanced
black bear rider : defensive. white bear rider : defensive
berserker : offensive. battle rager : balanced
rune patriarch : balanced (?) rune keeper : balanced (?)
flame lord : defensive. thunder thane : defensive
magma dragon : defensive. lava dragon : defensive
offensive = 1
balanced = 4
defensive = 9
I really don't agree with the way you classify them... I'd do it as follows:
Shield and Mountain guard are both obviously defensive.
I'd call the skirmisher balanced, it has far too weak defenses and HP to count as a defensive unit and Crippling Wound can both help defensively as well as offensively. Harpooner is offensive IMO because of it's bigger damage range and Harpoon strike is also an offensive ability.
Blackbear Rider I'd call balanced. Sure, they have far more defense than attack, however that coupled with their high HP, good inititative and speed and Paw Strike makes them rather good chargers IMO. Whitebear Rider is the same story but now with Fear.
Berserker and Battlerager I agree with.
Rune Patriarch I agree with, however the Keeper is a really offensive unit IMO. Fireball is an offensive spell, it deals excellent damage for a level 5, has Mark of Fire and is a shooter. The only thing letting it down as an offensive unit is it's crappy attack rating really, but that can be solved through Righteous Might.
The Flamelord and Thunder Thane are really not defensive units but balanced ones. Yes, they have boatloads of HP and a high Defense rating, however Storm Strike/ Flame Wave and Storm Bolt/ Flame Strike coupled with excellent speed and decent initiative and the fact that they're flyers make them the best attackers a Runemage can wish for, not to mention if runes like Battlerage are used on them.
Magma and Lava Dragon I agree with, unless you have rune of Charge. With this they can cross the battlefield instantly, transforming them into the best chargers you have available to you because of their massive HP and defenses and their ability to still dish out quite considerable damage.
this would make for:
offensive: 3
balanced: 7
defensive: 4
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 17, 2008 11:29 PM |
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Quote:
The problem I have is so little chance you can gather additional troops by diplomacy now. First of all, all classes are more creature-specific than before, so usually it's just not worth it to let creatures from another faction join you.
Now add to this that even creatures from your own town only have a one-third chance of being the creature type you already have. It makes diplomacy very weak.
Why not? I have done that numerous times to my benefit. As for creatures of your own town who cares, you can retrain them for a minimal fee. Don't tell me you don't have empty spaces while creeping just in case another unit joins. I usually carry with me 2-3 stacks whatever faction I play.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted April 18, 2008 08:58 PM |
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@ Sith, so if 3/8 are unsuccessful then you are generally favorable?
Is DV imbalanced on Seraph? It can be for the hero but I don't remember it being a problem on the angel.
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Now the votes are starting to spread a little but it is still primarily alts. are good.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 18, 2008 09:08 PM |
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To be frank I never pay too much attention to poll results. One reason is that for all you know half the votes come from people that play only H3 and only took a glance in H5. The second is that the mass tends to be affected by seeing the results.
There was a survey on that. Four people had to pick the smallest of three lines with three of them told to pick the wrong one and see how the fourth that was oblivious to the agreement would act. And he he followed suit. Now that might have been because he did not care or because he wanted to be done with it and not be questioned why he chose another but the fact is that he was influenced by the opinion of many.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted April 18, 2008 10:31 PM |
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Quote:
@ Sith, so if 3/8 are unsuccessful then you are generally favorable?
Is DV imbalanced on Seraph? It can be for the hero but I don't remember it being a problem on the angel.
Yes, I believe most of the units are nicely tuned to the faction. As to DV, the spell in and of itself is too powerful. I think Alc made a mod to water it down.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted April 18, 2008 10:40 PM |
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Quote:
To be frank I never pay too much attention to poll results.
Ignores Elvin.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 18, 2008 10:53 PM |
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Elvin is hurt 
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Cleave
Promising
Famous Hero
Raging Blood
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posted April 18, 2008 11:24 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
@ Sith, so if 3/8 are unsuccessful then you are generally favorable?
Is DV imbalanced on Seraph? It can be for the hero but I don't remember it being a problem on the angel.
Yes, I believe most of the units are nicely tuned to the faction. As to DV, the spell in and of itself is too powerful. I think Alc made a mod to water it down.
Here it is: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=24655
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13 Heroes
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted April 20, 2008 02:01 AM |
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Quote:
Elvin is hurt
Well you attacked polls in my poll thread. Don't be too surpised
I wasn't aware heroes 3 players glance into temple of Ashan. That's interesting info.
I know that I sometimes glance into Library of enlightment.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 20, 2008 02:06 AM |
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That was an exaggeration of course but no point in arguing semantics 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DeathPhoenix
Tavern Dweller
Holding life by the throat.
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posted May 23, 2008 03:55 AM |
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I find the ALter upgrades to be a great idea although in some cases, nothing changes much. One of my favorite alter-up is the Pit spawn, which has a completely different use (and thus strategy) from the Pit lord. I wish all of the alternatives were like this one though.
And Ghost dragon is even weaker than the specter! Why call it "Ghost" if you are not willing to give it incorporality? Give it at least a 25% chance to evade, instead of the ghost's 50%.
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Only weaklings destroy lives. Necromancers bend lives to their will.
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted May 25, 2008 02:18 PM |
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Quote:
Let's not turn this into another "compare the alternate upgrades" thread. We have one of them. I think the idea of this topic was to discuss the overall feature rather than strengths and weaknesses of specific upgrades.
Mind pointing me to that topic please?
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted May 25, 2008 05:47 PM |
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