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| Thread: Civilian's right to have a weapon. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Binabik
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posted May 05, 2008 09:11 AM |
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You don't have to shoot the targets head or torso. You can also shoot his leg or arm which means you don't kill him
You've never fired a gun have you?
Repeat the mantra: Television is not real. Television is not real. Television is not real.
IF you ever have a need to shoot someone (and hopefully that never happens) you do NOT, I repeat do NOT try to shoot them in the arm or leg. If this situation ever occurs, the idea is to stop them and stop them NOW. That means aiming at the largest target which is the torso. And if you are unpracticed with a gun and nervous, even at 4-5 paces there is a very good chance you will miss.
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Binabik
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posted May 05, 2008 09:26 AM |
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If this would be true, why do the U.S.A. have such a high rate of dead people who got shot? And on the other hand, countries with very restrictive gun laws have numbers close to zero?
I don't know the answer to that, but it's sure not because of people defending themselves in their home. That situation, which is what most of this discussion has been about, very rarely ends up with someone being killed. People are killed for other reasons - bar fights, jealous husbands/bf, gang/drugs, etc.
When the focus is on guns, then the real question never gets answered. Guns are a political issue. It's something very easy to blaim which makes it easy to get political "points" by speaking out against it. In politics, the only thing that really matters is appearance. And people always look for the simplest solution even if it's not right.
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Mytical
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posted May 05, 2008 09:45 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 09:49, 05 May 2008.
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There are a couple of reasons that america has more gun deaths, little to do with people defending their homes. One is indeed gangs and gang violence, another is our joke of a justice system that let people off with a slap on the wrist. Repeat offenders make up a lot of the crime we have.
Moreover we have people who coddle and try to protect criminals and persacute the victims. Some criminals have come out and said that they do crimes JUST to get put back in prison. Free food, free education, free medical, etc. If they are big and bad enough not to worry about 'bubba' it's not really punishment for them.
Some more is poor gun safety, which end up getting innocent kids shot. Instead of putting it up in a locked area, they leave it someplace where the kid can get at it.
Edit : Believe me I am not saying giving everybody a gun would make things perfect. There are a lot of ..idiots out there (safety wise and psycho wise). Passing an anti gun law, however, is not the solution. There are too many guns out there already for it to be that simple. Short of forgetting the right of privacy and invading every building and ceasing every weapon, it is like pouring a 20oz bottle of water on a 3 statewide forest fire.
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Binabik
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posted May 05, 2008 10:10 AM |
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I'd be curious how many murders are due to alcohol.
As far as parents who leave a gun where it's accessible by kids - unfortunately you can't outlaw stupidity. Again, guns get blamed in a situation where a kid gets killed because they got ahold of a gun. But the gun is not the problem, the stupid parents are. They are probably the same idiots who run into a store and leave the kid in the car with the keys in the ignition, or they leave the baby in the bath unattended because the phone rang....they are just idiots and there are probably a hundred things in the house which are dangerous.....if the kid drowns in the pool it makes the news, if the kid gets shot it makes the news and becomes a big political debate about banning guns when the real problem is stupid parents.
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Mytical
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posted May 05, 2008 10:17 AM |
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Yeah but if they outlawed stupidity, almost everybody would be behind bars. Different people have different ideas what is idiotic  .
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Binabik
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posted May 05, 2008 10:36 AM |
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I blame Ralph Nader He started a trend back in the 60s that bred stupid people. "Don't worry baa baa sheep, mommy (the government) will take care of you and make everything safe so you don't have to think for yourself any more. If that bottle of rat poison doesn't have a label saying you shouldn't drink it, then it must be safe to drink, right? And if you drink it anyway, just sue the company that made it because they didn't put a safety warning on it."
Yea, you can be as stupid as you want because the goverment will do everything for you and you don't have to think for yourself.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 05, 2008 12:25 PM |
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People are killed for other reasons - bar fights, jealous husbands/bf, gang/drugs, etc.
If these are the main reasons then perhaps they are another main argument against guns for civilians...
You get a little hot-headed, pull a trigger and there's no going back once you calm down a little.
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angelito
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posted May 05, 2008 01:00 PM |
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There are a couple of reasons that america has more gun deaths, little to do with people defending their homes.
Of course you are right here, but I was not refering to the "defending my home" issue, but to the "having a gun at all" issue. Using a gun for defending his home is only one possibility for the usage of a gun.
So I think a lot of other "deaths" could probably be prevented if having more restrictive gun laws.
For sure the "bad boys" (criminals) have their guns here in germany too, but still we don't have that many issues refering to shooting. Why is that I wonder?
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Minion
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posted May 05, 2008 01:54 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 13:55, 05 May 2008.
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People are killed for other reasons - bar fights, jealous husbands/bf, gang/drugs, etc.
But they really would not end up dead if they did not carry have a gun with them. Jealousy can be strong. But who has it in him/her to beat another person dead? Or stab with a knife, you have to get close and you have to use force. But guns injure and kill without an effort. You simply pull the trigger, and that is it. Many don´t realize how deadly a gun is before it already is time to go to jail…
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guns get blamed in a situation where a kid gets killed because they got ahold of a gun.
Partly because they wouldn’t get killed if they found a knife or a pepper spray. That is the difference.
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another is our joke of a justice system that let people off with a slap on the wrist.
The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world at 737 persons imprisoned per 100,000. A report released 2/28/08 indicates that in the United States more than 1 in 100 adults is now confined in an American jail or prison. The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.
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The_Gootch
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posted May 05, 2008 03:27 PM |
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Don't be swayed by Mytical's comment about a joke of a justice system. Well, the justice system might be a joke but not for the reasons Mytical cited. Her argument is not supported by any statistical evidence and is based more off emotions and gut instincts--which in her case have been wrong, wrong, wrong for awhile now.
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Corribus
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posted May 05, 2008 05:23 PM |
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*Sigh*
Well, another cop (Sgt. Steven Liczbinski) was murdered in Killadelphia this weekend while responding to a robbery in a grocery store.
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6456181&version=64&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1
This news is troubling for several reasons.
First, relating to this thread, the officer was gunned down with a SKS Assault Rifle. According to reports, the officer was still in his car or just getting out, having not even had time to draw his weapon. It is a sad cruel irony that not long ago Mayor Michael Nutter of Philadelphia signed into law a bill that cracked down on military-grade assault weapons. Even sadder is that the NRA then sued the city, claiming it didn't have the right to impose a weapons ordinance that was stricter than the Philadelphia state gun laws.
Now, you can play semantics games all you want with the role of the human vs. the role of the gun in a shooting death, but seriously - how can anyone with a conscience object to the ban of military-grade assault rifles? What possible altruistic use does a civilian have of such an instrument of death? Certainly, you can argue that such laws will not impact whether criminals can attain such weapons - and that may or may not be true - but I just don't see any logical argument against making such weapons harder to obtain. It is just incredible that the NRA would sue Philadelphia, a city which is essentially a warzone and which is trying to do anything to curb the out-of-control gun violence that is going on here. The law against assault rifles may not accomplish anything, but it certainly cannot HURT. Please, someone explain the logic.
Here's a video on it:
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6460019&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1
And while I'm venting...
Second, all of the animals that committed this crime had prior extensive criminal records. I heard on the news this morning that one of the men, 33 yo, had 17 prior convictions, many of them for armed burlary. At the time of the murder, he was living in a halfway house (for those who don't know what this is, it's a form of parole). Can someone tell me what someone with 17 felony convictions is doing wandering the streets? I mean, at what point do we give up the illusion of rehabilitation with such people? I'm all for giving some people second chances if they show they deserve it, but 18th chances? Give me a break. These guys should have been locked up PERMANENTLY.
Of the three suspects, one was gunned down by a canine officer. One was captured. The other is at large. I hope he gets eaten by pirahna.
Anyway, just to leave you with a final note of bittersweet sentiment, officer Liczbinski's final words before passing unconscious for the final time allegedly were "Tell my wife I love her." My heart goes out to his wife and three children, who because of this senseless act will never see their husband/father again. We all spend a lot of time praising soldiers in the military and forget that in places like Philadelphia, police officers are soldiers too, who fight every day to protect us from the rabid animals that also happen to live here. Often their deeds are unsung, though. Please take a moment, the next time you see a police officer, to thank him for risking his life to keep yours safe.
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Mytical
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posted May 06, 2008 12:19 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:04, 06 May 2008.
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Don't be swayed by Mytical's comment about a joke of a justice system. Well, the justice system might be a joke but not for the reasons Mytical cited. Her argument is not supported by any statistical evidence and is based more off emotions and gut instincts--which in her case have been wrong, wrong, wrong for awhile now.
Don't forget personal experience. Thanks for dismissing me so easily. *shrugs* Each their own.
Lets go over some statistics (compiled by the CDC). Now all I could find is the 2005 statistics unfortunately, but there is indications that crimes have actually droped since then (total). These will have to do until I can find 2007 statistics. Also I am covering a few extra 'highlights' to illistrate a point later.
Total deaths 2,448,017 (all causes natural or otherwise)
Heart Disease 652,091 26.6%
Accidents 117,809 4.8% (all manners including vehicle)
Diabetes 75,119 3.1%
Suicide 32,637 1.3%
Assult (gun or otherwise) 18,124 .07%
Now Suicide, Assult, and Accidents have some gun related deaths.
30,694 Gun Deaths (by Suicide, Assult, and Accidents combined)
12,352 Homicides (40%)
17,002 Suicides (55%)
789 Unintentional, 330 Legal (ie result of police or other law enforcement action not including self defense which is considered in the homicides justified or not), 221 Unknown (5% total)
There were 43,443 Vehicle Deaths (Greater then gun deaths).
Taking away the suicides (which arguably if they were going to commit suicide the lack of a gun would not play a part) that leaves 13,692 deaths by guns.
80% of those deaths were by weapons Illegally obtained and would not be affected by passing gun laws. So 2738.4 deaths were attributed to legally obtained firearms (yes this has a point, bare with me).
Now lets look at our chart again. We will concentrate on vehicle deaths for now. 43,443 deaths by vehicles in 2005 almost 20x that of gun deaths. Maybe we should outlaw vehicles. How about diabetes
75,119 roughly 32x..maybe we should outlaw anything that could cause somebody to develop diabetes.
((As soon as I can find the statistics on repeat offenders and % of crimes I will post those here also))
I honestly don't mean to be difficult, and am by no means a card carrying member of the NRA. I really dislike firearms, and really wish that all violence of any kind was a thing of the past. We should be working with each other to achieve great things, not killing each other in the streets.
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Mytical
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posted May 06, 2008 07:36 AM |
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@Corribus.
I do agree totally that heavy firearms have no use to civilians, and yes despite my stand of being all for people having the right to carry firearms know there is a logical limit. I honestly couldn't see say a AK47, or M-60 or anything even similar should be in the hands of a civilian. To be honest, I could see even limiting it even farther. Nobody needs an arsonal. Personal protection and hunting is one thing, weapons like that are not for personal protection or hunting.
In regards to the police men, I don't think it should stop there. Thanking them that is. Fire Men, EMS drivers (some go into very dangerous areas), and others should be thanked also. Even teachers should be thanked (some do have dangerous jobs also).
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 06, 2008 10:28 AM |
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Unless I'm missing the point completely Gootch didn't just want you to post a bunch of statistics but rather back up your statement about the justice system with statistics or evidence...
on the topic:
One thing I find ridiculous is sniper rifles - Probably the least self-defensive gun
Also on Borat:
"Can you buy Anti-Tank gun for self defence?"
"You can. In Texas."
Borat- A Real Man
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Mytical
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posted May 06, 2008 10:52 AM |
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About the justice system being corrupt and a joke? Well thankfully I don't have to do much work with that. Just look at any celebrity who has been tried for examples of that. Heck, Paris Hilton is a very good example, speaks for itself.
However, if I am not mistaken this is about guns, not the justice system. My statistics were not just 'random' statistics. Personally I want to know where the line is drawn, where we stop. We obviously can't ban every danger to life, else we would have to live in rubber rooms with straight jackets, watched 24/7 by somebody. What is the logical point when we stop trying to protect people from themselves? It's an honest question.
Unfortunately I know that the above example won't be enough for some people. So I will turn back to the justice system. Lets take something I am personally familiar with. I will just call it 'assult'. Here is exactly how the system works, from first hand experience.
The victim, from here forward referred to as "A", is assulted. Manages to see their attackers, hereafter referred to as "B" and "C". Plenty of physical evidence as well. In laymens terms a 'slam dunk' for the prosecution.
"A" goes to the police, and reports the crime, and is required to relive it in graphic detail. They then have to go to the hospital to be examined, and everything documented. "A" is required several times to again give graphic details, as throughly as possible.
The police investigate including a through examination of "A"'s home and collect evidence. Then "A" picks out "B" and "C" from a lineup.
The prosecutor contacts "A" and again "A" has to go over what happened again and again. Despite wanting to forget what transpired desperately. Looking for any detail that might not be exact and in question.
People close to "B" and "C" call, harrass, threaten, bribe "A". Despite "A" going to the police about that many many times.
Then "A" is put on the stand, and again in front of many people has to go over (In graphic detail) what transpired once again. Not only do they have to face "B" and "C" again, but all their friends who (Threatened, called, harrassed, etc).
Next the defense attorney brings up every little thing from "A"'s life regardless of if it has anything to do with the case or not. Taste in clothing, lifestyle, you name it. "A" feels 'assulted' over and over again during this process.
Finally that ordeal is over (at least until the parole hearing). The sentance comes down...2 years. 2 lousy, stinking, years. Now trust me the nightmares last a LOT longer then 2 years. Much much longer.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted May 06, 2008 11:25 AM |
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Maybe we should beat up and torture all criminals before enforcing death penalty 
That way NO ONE will commit ANY crimes!
Utopia.  
Just don't get a parking ticket
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Mytical
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posted May 06, 2008 11:38 AM |
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Maybe we should beat up and torture all criminals before enforcing death penalty
That way NO ONE will commit ANY crimes!
Utopia.
Just don't get a parking ticket
*sighs*. I never said that, and you well know it. The punishment should fit the crime. I also understand mitigating circumstances. Guess we go back to your post. There will be no intelligent discussion here. *shrugs*
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TheDeath
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posted May 06, 2008 12:53 PM |
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One thing I find ridiculous is sniper rifles - Probably the least self-defensive gun
Good for hijacks
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Also on Borat:
"Can you buy Anti-Tank gun for self defence?"
"You can. In Texas."
What if a corrupted soldier or terrorist steals a tank and goes to destroy something, and the 'official' army is far and gets in 5 minutes, time in which you could stop him?
not really serious, but utopia maybe?
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angelito
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posted May 06, 2008 02:38 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 14:40, 06 May 2008.
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Some interesting numbers u have listed there. Let me add some from germany (red color) for a comparison:
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Heart Disease 652,091 180,000
Suicide 32,637 10,260
30,694 Gun Deaths (by Suicide, Assult, and Accidents combined) 1,200
43,443 Vehicle Deaths (Greater then gun deaths). 5,361
Germany has got around 82 million inhabitants.
Germany has a higher rate of suiciders (surprises me a bit), but now look at the gun deaths.
What is even more disturbing is the number of kids (under 18) dying by gun shots in the States. If I recall correct, it is on 2nd or 3rd place in ranking of "how do kids die".
What I find interesting also is the low amount of traffic deaths in Germany compared to those in the States, even though we have no official speed limit. One more proof speed limit doesn't mean safer driving..
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TheDeath
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posted May 06, 2008 02:45 PM |
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What is even more disturbing is the number of kids (under 18) dying by gun shots in the States. If I recall correct, it is on 2nd or 3rd place in ranking of "how do kids die".
That's not because of guns, but because of gangs (especially black vs white) that there are in the US. A lot more 'street' fights or 'school' fights are available there (and actually, in my country sort of, where we don't have guns, we stab with knives or fists).
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What I find interesting also is the low amount of traffic deaths in Germany compared to those in the States, even though we have no official speed limit. One more proof speed limit doesn't mean safer driving..
Less Alcohol means, however
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