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| Thread: American Suicide |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 12, 2008 03:21 PM |
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If you guys want to continue this discussion in a matter that is not racist
I don't see anything racist.
As for children of illegal immigrants going to schools: they can in that the government can't stop them. But their parents can stop them, because they're afraid that someone will ask them, "What do your parents do?" "They're undocumented workers" and they'll get deported.
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Eccentric Opinion
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted June 12, 2008 04:06 PM |
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First off Panda Bear this is not a racist thread, no different than the all Muslims thread or any other thread that is trying to explain the view of persons or person. This was a speech given, not my own words first, and while you want to question the truth of it or not is up to you. I’ am not asking you to agree with it or even comment on it if this subject does not interest you.
I live in the US and therefore it interests me. If you stated that little red lizards were invading your country and the regulations to contain the issue was not being handled properly I would not get on there and say, “Well I love little red lizards and the fact that you say they are causing an issue is racist and you should take a different tone.”
There is nothing wrong with my thread, no different than one person saying that Clinton is better than Obama. Does that make you sexist or racist, no it is you opinion and that is all. I agree with a lot that he said and was placing a foundation for a discussion in that regard. However it appears that when this subject comes up we are supposed to sugar coat it so it sounds pretty. Well not this one, I feel strong about it.Just because it is not full of flowers and pink bows does not make it valid and a subject worth looking into. This is reality.
As far as this thread is a public thread your right hands down. But spamming in my thread is supposed to be against “the rules”. Since you’re so hell bent on those rules start applying them then to others that come in here and want the thread moved to the trash waste land.
@MV. Yes that was directed to Bin, sorry I did not state that.
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What's weird is that I lived in California for 12 years and I've seen this stuff first hand. And the thing is that IMO most Mexicans don't care. Both side like to make people THINK the Mexicans care, and they find some vocal radical group who acts like they care, but in reality, most Mexican don't give a **** about it.Quote:
I would agree and say they don’t care, some of the reason why someone needs to.
We just need to sit down and say to ourselves that our economy can handle this much (said number) of others those that are not contributing to our society, those that are cramming themselves into a 500 square foot house 15 to a house and then getting food stamps, government grants etc. Read what ACU wrote he lives in the middle of it. When you bring poverty into an area you get all that comes with it including crime. They come from nothing, they have nothing, and they want something. So they do what they feel they have to to get what they need or want. Now this is true for poverty stricken places in general.
We either let them come over and we educate them and provide social health care to everyone as well as free education, college included, or we start closing off these borders until we can get on our feet. As far as the comment about having to provide education to the children of illegal immigrants, if they are going to be allowed to float about anyway I would rather they be educated and please educate their children. Do it right if we are going to do it.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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violent_flower
Promising
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Almost there.
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posted June 12, 2008 04:17 PM |
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"They're undocumented workers" and they'll get deported.
This is what should happen but because employers are not being reprimanded more for hiring them and the INS won’t deport them unless they are in large numbers, this just does not happen that often. They have started closing businesses down that hire them as of more recent.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted June 12, 2008 05:03 PM |
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Wow...First of all, Violent Flower - I have no problems with discussing this with you, but would find it easier to reply without anger if you dropped some of the condescending attitude.
I asked that the issues not be discussed with a racist tone - I did not call anyone racist, I did not state that this was a racist thread. The issue of uncontrolled immigration is a giant, I think there is a lot to discuss and a lot of ideas and feelings can be shared on the topic.
What I do not want to see happen is that the thread turns into an "all Mexicans need to get out of MY country" thread. Any time people try to rally others against a certain group, I think we're talking about racism. When the overall tone is us vs them, and an attitude is expressed that all of one's problems are caused by one ethnic group - then I think we're getting into a racist conversation.
All I was doing is ask that this thread not go there.
With regards to my replying, I think its well within my rights to reply to any thread I choose to. I'm not going to apologize to you for not being American and still having an opinion on matters within your borders. Some people have interests in what goes on in other countries. In the first post you made, you quoted a fellow who made several references to issues of forced bilingualism, and mentioned the situation with Quebec - Quebec is actually in my country, so i do know a little something about it and think I am qualified to participate in your topic.
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If you stated that little red lizards were invading your country and the regulations to contain the issue was not being handled properly I would not get on there and say, “Well I love little red lizards and the fact that you say they are causing an issue is racist and you should take a different tone.”
This is wrong on so many levels... I did not jump into your thread stating I love illegal immigrants, did I? Nor do I find the fact that you equate human immigration with lizard infestation to be in good taste at all.
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Since you’re so hell bent on those rules start applying them then to others that come in here and want the thread moved to the trash waste land.
I can only assume that you're referring to Bini's reply - which was ontopic. He stated that while there was some truths presented in the opening rant - the tone of it was to incite anger against a group of people. There is nothing wrong with him voicing that opinion.
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However it appears that when this subject comes up we are supposed to sugar coat it so it sounds pretty. Well not this one, I feel strong about it.Just because it is not full of flowers and pink bows does not make it valid and a subject worth looking into. This is reality.
I never once stated that this topic was not worthy of discussion. I find it incredibly offensive that you choose to believe that anyone who doesn't share your views is looking to live in a world of pink and pretty.
I have had talks with Aculias about the situation with illegal immigrants, I am well aware of how ugly and out of control it is. And to repeat myself, I think its a fine topic to discuss here - but without vilifying a group of people based on their ethnicity.
The problem runs deeper than where someone comes from - fault lies with the way its been handled, and allowed to grow into this massive issue. The problem lies in turning a blind eye to something that is happening every day, creating a situation that's been allowed to grow into something that appears nearly unmanageable now.
All that I have asked in this thread is that it not become a racist rant against Mexicans. As a moderator it is quite within my right to do that, and as a member it is also within my right to reply to this thread if I so choose.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted June 12, 2008 06:17 PM |
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Wow...First of all, Violent Flower - I have no problems with discussing this with you, but would find it easier to reply without anger if you dropped some of the condescending attitude.
Well first of all, Panda, I would find it much easier to accept your opinions on this manner if your replies to my threads were more about discussing the issue and less about trying to regulate every little thing I write. As a matter of fact I can't really remember the last time you replied to me and it wasen't either negative or taking a Qp. The first post was not in anger I said very little of my own there it was all pulled from a speech someone else did. He was going for shock value much like Gore in his Inconvenient Truth documentary. That is the same thing as far as this subject is concerned; it is an inconvenient truth and not PC enough for some to handle which is what I was referring to with pretty and pink comment.
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I asked that the issues not be discussed with a racist tone
We are talking about closing borders, sending the illegal’s back if they are not here with the right documentation and cleaning up some of this mess we have allowed, sorry but unfortunately some sensitive’s out there are going to consider that racist either way it is put. It is not meant to be racist it is meant to be viewed as a serious issue, like politics etc. Anything that is seen as killing something off, in this case dragging our economy down and killing the American Dream. Not a issue solely based around MEXICANS but in some cases immigration in general.
It is supposed to be torn apart and examined is it not? So my anger as far as the VW comment was like saying your subject is trash and not worthy of the Otherside. You seen my response did you not? I stick by it, go to the VW read that **** and make spam there not in my thread.
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I think we're talking about racism
That’s right, let’s review that comment, you think its racism. Matter of your opinion, which as I, you are allowed to have. As long as it stays an opinion and you don’t start locking threads and giving out –QP’s, all is good.
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Any time people try to rally others against a certain group; I think we're talking about racism.
Stop putting things or parts of ideas into others head they are libel to read it as truth Panda. Don’t take a small piece of truth and just go with it as all truth, people might start to believe you. Um, can’t remember who stated something similar. There is no rally here…
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I'm not going to apologize to you for not being American and still having an opinion on matters within your borders.
First off there was no apology asked for, was there? You have your opinion, just quit making mine sounds as though it is racist, this is a political issue for me and trying to resolve something that obviously getting out of control. Never said you were not qualified, just join in as a person that is concerned or with something to offer to the subject.
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This is wrong on so many levels... I did not jump into your thread stating I love illegal immigrants, did I? Nor do I find the fact that you equate human immigration with lizard infestation to be in good taste at all.
I don’t ask people to find what I have to say in good taste, read it for what it is and then move on. I used that as an example and nothing more. You see since you don’t live in the thick of it and are an observer you have only a small idea of what it is like. Just as I would not know what being invaded by lizards would be like unless I was? So the analogy was lame…
In response to this being all about Mexicans, did you not read about the flag situation and how we are being forced to conform to other nations coming over here with their threats of lawsuits of discrimination etc? You’re intelligent so I will assume you read it but then picked and choose what you wanted to make comments on. This is about immigration in general and what they should be allowed to do and not do. What is appropriate when you are in another country to try to force on people of that country and what is not.
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As a moderator it is quite within my right to do that, and as a member it is also within my right to reply to this thread if I so choose.Quote:
As a member it is also in my right to reply, as long as the “rules” are not broke, anyway that I choose and to be quite frank I’ am getting tired of having this “your responding with anger” and “condescending” thing going on. Everyone has their own way of responding and I would really appreciate it that when it comes to my “tone”, you let it lie for awhile.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Mulroney
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2008 06:41 PM |
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I don't see anything racist in this topic. Having a favourable tendency toward enforcement of the law is not racism.
I somewhat agree with the original post, but I would argue that it is a little alarmist. Countries like Canada have bi-lingual issues because they've been bi-lingual for their entire existence. There is a difference between that, and a NEW language developing in one section of the country.
Let me clarify using Canada as an example: There is French separatism in Canada, because the French colonized Canada first, and were taken over by the English. They, therefore, feel they have a legitimate claim to separation.
The same could not happen due to massive immigration from Mexico, because they would be new citizens with no claim at all to independence. (Not to mention, why would they want to separate to preserve their culture, when they could just move back to Mexico 15 minutes down the road?)
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted June 12, 2008 06:45 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 19:18, 12 Jun 2008.
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I don't really know how to reply to you without you taking it as an attack. I think that you've decided how you want to read me, and regardless of what i say, you will continue to take it in that manner.
I have not tried to regulate what you write. I merely cautioned that since the first post was a very inflammatory quote, this thread could go down the wrong road.
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We are talking about closing borders, sending the illegal’s back if they are not here with the right documentation and cleaning up some of this mess we have allowed, sorry but unfortunately some sensitive’s out there are going to consider that racist either way it is put. It is not meant to be racist it is meant to be viewed as a serious issue, like politics etc. Anything that is seen as killing something off, in this case dragging our economy down and killing the American Dream. Not a issue solely based around MEXICANS but in some cases immigration in general.
I don't consider that to be racist at all. I never once objected to a discussion about that.
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That’s right, let’s review that comment, you think its racism. Matter of your opinion, which as I, you are allowed to have. As long as it stays an opinion and you don’t start locking threads and giving out –QP’s, all is good.
If the thread turns into a racist discussion, I will close the thread. If racist remarks are made, I will give a penalty. I will not do it without consulting the mod squad first, but please don't tell me what I can or cannot do there.
What you're not understanding is that I have never said that this thread was at that point. I merely recognized that a topic of this nature could go that way, and rather than wait to see it happen and start penalizing, I let it be known that if it did turn in that direction it would be in violation of the CoC.
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Stop putting things or parts of ideas into others head they are libel to read it as truth Panda. Don’t take a small piece of truth and just go with it as all truth, people might start to believe you. Um, can’t remember who stated something similar. There is no rally here…
Again, you've chosen to make me 'the bad guy' and are reading everything I say in that manner. I did not ever think that YOU were trying to rally anyone - I feel that it was the intention of the quote you posted to rally people. The person who made the speech is who I was referring to - not you.
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In response to this being all about Mexicans, did you not read about the flag situation and how we are being forced to conform to other nations coming over here with their threats of lawsuits of discrimination etc? You’re intelligent so I will assume you read it but then picked and choose what you wanted to make comments on.
Again, your choice to read me that way. My initial post was only cautioning against this turning to racism - my reply to you was based on what appeared to me to be you slamming me for doing my job as a moderator.
I have barely begun to reply to what I feel about the thread subject as a topic. I did not ignore what you wrote because it doesn't suit me in my evil with hunt against you - I simply had no problem with it - and saw no reason to mention it at that time.
Of course I think it's wrong, I have always felt its wrong. In Canada we have the flag stitched into everything, its considered a display of pride. I would be outraged if my children were ever told they could not wear it.
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As a member it is also in my right to reply, as long as the “rules” are not broke, anyway that I choose and to be quite frank I’ am getting tired of having this “your responding with anger” and “condescending” thing going on. Everyone has their own way of responding and I would really appreciate it that when it comes to my “tone”, you let it lie for awhile.
What I was actually trying to say there, is that I found your way of replying to me to be very disrespectful - i don't think for a second that you owe me any kind of respect , you can be angry at me as you will - but I was upset at the way you chose to misread me and my intention, and I was having trouble not replying in anger.
It can be difficult as a moderator to 'maintain the order' when you feel that someone you thought of as a friend is attacking you, and misreading you at every turn. I won't ask you to respect me as a person, I only ask that you understand that as a moderator sometimes I do have to look into a thread.
You pointed out yourself that we do have younger posters here, some might see that first bit of speech the wrong way and react to it the wrong way. I am merely asking that we exercise some caution here, because it is dangerous ground.
With regards to the topic at hand, I don't feel its fair that anyone should be forced to conform to another person's culture. I am very much against the notion that who gets jobs should be decided by anything other than one's credentials. i don't want a minority group firefighter to come to my house when it's burning because they had to meet a quota - I want the best firefighter there is to be answering my call. The same goes for any job, all of the time.
I don't think anyone should be told that they cannot support the USA by wearing a flag while they are in the USA - that's absolutely wrong.
Please don't try to paint me as being someone that I am not. Just because I didn't immediately comment on something, does not mean that I was in agreement with it.
You've taken my general comment about the direction of this thread as a personal attack somehow - and I would have written the same thing regardless of who started the thread.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted June 12, 2008 07:03 PM |
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Well as I consider you a friend as well, then please try to not paint me as a racist as that is far from the truth. I felt that while you state young ones will read into the speech, they will read into what you state as well. You have power to the little ones here as a mod, someone who can pull the holy QP from under them.
Your whole response was the way this thread could go, the way one might take it; it could turn and go down the wrong road. You have set a foundation for failure and people will hesitate when responding. I want people’s true feeling without breaking rules and without this fear dangling over them.
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If you guys want to continue this discussion in a matter that is not racist - I would recommend a new thread with a new tone. Heroes Community is not the place for hateful propoganda.
This is what made me upset, this thread was not about propaganda. Please don’t label my threads that way it is really offensive.
Besides that I will always respect you and except that I will also defend myself when I feel pushed in a corner. I have no preconceived idea of you, I have always liked you and valued you. It is like husband and wife, you fight then kiss and make up.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted June 12, 2008 07:10 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 19:13, 12 Jun 2008.
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And again, my comment was directed at the speech you quoted. I gave no individual warnings - my suggestion for a new thread was simply to rid the topic of the tone set by that quote.
I've not asked that it be closed, because it seems that people are discussing the topic in a rational way.
In any case, I don't wish to drive this thread any farther offtopic. I'm sorry to everyone for that.
edit : In case it needs to be spoken - I was not trying to paint Violent Flower as a racist.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted June 12, 2008 08:00 PM |
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Don't apoligize for doing your job.... I' am just a snow is all 
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 13, 2008 07:42 AM |
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Really, so if I banned all Mexicans or Japanese from a store, since I' am banning all of them so does that make me racist?
That's illegal, but shouldn't be, IMO.
Maybe my idea of racicsm is different than yours, but what else than racistic is this underlined part of that reply?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted June 13, 2008 10:19 AM |
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I mentioned to someone in private that the immigration issue in the US is kind of like a couple getting divorced. You have a married couple who get divorced and end up hating each other. They will do anything to attack the other one and hurt them. What often ends up happening in these cases is that the children are placed in the middle of the fight. The parents use the children as a bargaining tool to best take advantage of their spouse. The children are innocent but suffer while the parents fight each other.
The immigration issue in the US is not a racist issue. But like the divorcing patents, certain people get put in the middle of the fight between two parties who will do anything to score points against the other to make them look bad. You have a bunch of politicians who take an issue that is not racist and make it racist to score points. The politicians have a big fight in public with everyone watching. The effect is that this big public battle actually MAKES racist people when previously there were none. The intent of the politicians might have been to score points against their adversary, but the unintended result was to create racism.
And in many cases (maybe most), the people watching this battle know almost nothing about it. Even in the US people outside of California and to a lesser degree a handful of other states, really don't understand it. They've never seen it with their own eyes. The only thing they know about it is this big public debate where they get bits and pieces that are carefully orchestrated to score points. They only know what the politicians and media want them to know.
The term racism is way over used. People have become overly sensitized to it. As such, the topic of immigration is very touchy and difficult to discuss. If VF's first post (Lamm's speech) is read very slowly and carefully AND WITH SOME BACKGROUND KNOWLEDGE of what's happening, there is nothing racist in it, although there are a couple borderline statements (and likely some incorrect statemnets).
But here's the problem. The environment which has been set up by the politicians and media is a tinderbox. Just because a person lights a cigarette and throws the match on the ground does not make him an arsonist. But if he throws the match on dry grass it still starts a fire. Lamm's speech is not necessarily racist, but it does fan the flames of racism. This is what I meant earlier about the tone of the speech.
When I lived in California there was a mall in the southern part of town called the Florin Mall. This was in an area of the city that was highly diversified. Like all malls it was mostly younger people. White northern European decent was a minority. The people were Hispanic, Vietnamese, Hmong, Cambodian, Philipino, etc etc. There were thousands of people walking through the mall just living their lives and trying to have a good time shopping or just hanging out...... and there was NO RACISM ..... everyone got along just fine with each other. But all these thousand of people are not the ones who make the news. They are not the ones whom the politicians talk about. Only the few who cause trouble make the news.
Yes, there are a lot of people who get frustrated and ticked off about the number of immigrants. But I want to make a very clear distinction. I'll repeat the words "number of immigrants". What the media and politicians never seem to stress is that the key words are the "NUMBER of immigrants", not "number of IMMIGRANTS".
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violent_flower
Promising
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Almost there.
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posted June 13, 2008 02:32 PM |
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That's illegal, but shouldn't be, IMO.
I did not write this so I can no say if he really means that way, although it comes across that way. Maybe he is saying that as a store owner a person should have the right to dictate who enter and who does not. I would be curious what was meant as well.
@ BIN This was very well spoken and not being in Mexifornia and in the mix of it would make some peoples ideas of how it really is questionable. I was raised on the West coast and your right, thousands of immigrants walk among each each other without issue everyday. I have a divers set of friends as well and understand that this is not about they all need to go back where they came from, blah blah blah. This is about laws being enforced because they are there for a reason, history repeating itself in regard to similar situations, and having regulations that people follow when it comes to immigration.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 13, 2008 02:50 PM |
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I did not write this so I can no say if he really means that way, although it comes across that way. Maybe he is saying that as a store owner a person should have the right to dictate who enter and who does not. I would be curious what was meant as well.
What does matter however, is why you are banning them. If it is because of their nationality/race/whatever then it's racism. If it is because of anything that could happen to an american as well, then it's not.
Somehow I doubt the latter is the case here though 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 13, 2008 05:37 PM |
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Maybe my idea of racicsm is different than yours, but what else than racistic is this underlined part of that reply?
It may be racist, but it's the business owner's business, so he or she should have the right to do so. I mean, when someone walks into your house, you don't have to let them stay. It should be the same with a business. It doesn't matter why he's banning them, it's his property and he can do whatever he likes with it, as long as he doesn't infringe upon the rights of others.
Of course, if it's for racist reasons, the free market will ensure that such actions would be minimized.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted June 14, 2008 04:19 AM |
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He states that multiculturalism is pivotal in destroying a nation, but he doesn't really say why.
It's a sin that people like this get voted into power, really.
That's what scares me more than anything, more than those little red lizards he's trying to oppress.
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John says to live above hell.
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted June 14, 2008 06:06 AM |
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I think I agree with the consensus that there are some truths in his comments that have been blown into large puffy rafts of demagoguery and fearmongery. Living on the West Coast, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that either I or any kids I have will eventually have to learn Spanish. There's some stretches of California I traveled recently that if I were to live there I probably would have started (re(re)) learning spanish a long time ago. Another thing that Gov Whozits didn't bring up is that American English speakers are hardly breeding at all.
It's funny though, if I was to point my finger at how America commits suicide, over-immigration would be pretty far down on the list. My top two would probably be like this:
a)every year the politicians pile on another 250 billion dollars of debt, at about 6 percent interest. There's no political will anywhere to try and pay that off or stop borrowing money.
b)every year the health care industry swallows more and more of the American economy (as a percentage). There's no political will anywhere there either to put limits on that.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted June 14, 2008 06:34 AM |
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It is not racist when you state facts about current events.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 14, 2008 06:39 AM |
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Ok I have a couple different views about the subject that make up my overall view.
The vast majority of people in America are decendants of illegal immigrants. Now seeing as the government was set up by said immigrants all immigrants arriving after (regardless of 'legal' or not) would be illegal, for how does illegal immigrants grant authrorization to move here? However, I am not against our current governement, or anybody who moved/lives here.
However, I do believe if you are going to live in a country, you should speak that countries language. Yes this goes for American's who move to another country. If I am going to visit your country, let alone live there, you better bet I will learn the language. That is just me however.
Our problem is not workers in another land, it is not our businesses sending jobs over seas. It is not even illegal immigrants. It is that we have allowed these things. Let me explain.
We don't compete for the jobs anymore. Often we are too lazy, or complacent, or feel powerless. We also want everything cheap, so companies have to do something to keep prices down. If we would actually compete price wise then the jobs would still be here instead of elsewhere.
We let our government become corrupt, as well as our judicial system. Greed dictates our policies. So don't blame others for our misfortune. If you really want to know who is responsible for a poor economy, horrible international policy, and declining dollar you don't have to look far. If you are American, like me, you just have to look in the mirror.
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Message received.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 14, 2008 02:43 PM |
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Now seeing as the government was set up by said immigrants all immigrants arriving after (regardless of 'legal' or not) would be illegal
It's not like the Indians said that we couldn't be here.
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We don't compete for the jobs anymore.
Part of the reason is that we can't. Because of minimum wage laws, there are some jobs that some people simply can't get.
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Eccentric Opinion
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