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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2014 08:32 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 20:36, 09 Jun 2014.
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meroe said:
xerox said:
I'm sort of in the middle of a polyamorous love triangle now.
I'm approaching the end of high school. During these three years, I've been kinda interested in one of my classmates, who often acts outside of hetero norms. He has no problem walking around naked in front of everybody when drunk, I've kissed him more times than anyone else in my life lol. It's obvious that he's not really sure of his sexuality. Sometimes, he's claimed that he's bisexual, sometimes that he's heterosexual but relates to "individuals" and not gender (yeah, I'm sort of responsible for planting that liberal propaganda in his head). He's also obviously curious about a lot of "gay culture" things, especially in comparison to "straight culture" (like how it's probably easier to just casually sleep with a gay guy than a girl).
I care about him and have started to show that a whole lot more these last weeks. When he gets really, really drunk, I follow him home so that he gets there safely. He really appreciated that. Yesterday, we were at a home party at a rural household, and I, again, took care of him when he had drank to much. We ended up placing him on the floor in a sort of cottage, so he could sleep some. There was no heating though, and he was shaking a lot from the cold, so well, we ended up sort of spooning each other to keep ourselves warm. We had no pillows, no blankets, no heating, only each other. He ended up saying he'd tell his parents that he was bisexual, and that he thought I was sort of cute.
This guy knows my bf from when they were young, and we usually drink with each other when my bfs in town (he lives elsewhere). My classmate is fully supportive of our relationship. Now I'm sort of struggling with how to deal with the situation. You probably know by now that I don't find monogamy to be very appealing, but perhaps it's to optimistic of me to think that I can have both of them. I really don't want to in any way damage the relation between us three.
I'm also thinking about what I can do to make my classmate come to terms with his sexuality. I want to help him get out of the position where he's heterosexual to everybody else (even though people know and accept that he has bi tendencies), but bisexual to me. I want him to know that there's absolutely no need for him to identify as gay or part of that "culture", where he (and I) don't really approve of the feminine aspects. I think that might be what's holding him back. I want him to know that there's no need for him at all to live as, and be labelled as, a feminine gay stereotype or anything like that.
It might be a good idea for your school friend to speak to someone else about his identity and sexuality/feelings, rather than you. Because ultimately you have your own agenda here = your desires and wants, which might not actually be what he needs or wants. However, speaking to someone outside of your little triangle, may help him work out things for himself rather than be pressurized by others.
I really don't think you are the one to help him discover his sexuality. If he discovers he is in fact bi or even homosexual, I am sure he will seek you out as you two have a connection. But if he really is a friend of your's, you will give him the space his needs to find counsel elsewhere with someone not invested in the relationship as you are.
Also you need to remember that many heterosexual people can develop very strong emotional relationships with homosexual people akin, beyond best friends etc. Sometimes sex is just not on the books.
That last part is kinda like what I'm trying to say when I say that people aren't exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. You can feel strongly about a person, without wanting to sleep with them. Maybe you think that's my agenda, but primarily, I want him to find himself rather than being constrained by the labels and stereotypes of other people. I've been very clear with him that he's dealing with this on his own terms, but that I'm here for him if he wants to talk.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2014 09:04 PM |
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xerox said:
Maybe you think that's my agenda, but primarily, I want him to find himself rather than being constrained by the labels and stereotypes of other people. I've been very clear with him that he's dealing with this on his own terms, but that I'm here for him if he wants to talk.
from what i've read, you are only trying to guide him towards your sexuality, and steer him away from heterosexuality. if he has bi tendencies, though, i can see that you will already have another male to play with, no matter your agenda, or anyone else's. so just sit back, relax, and let him come to you. my guess is, that he will in time(judging from your description of him).
i had a best friend who was bi, it didn't stop me from caring a great deal about him. i once stopped him from committing suicide when i was in germany, by having a buddy in germany contact a relative in the states, to call 911 and send paramedics to his house while i stayed on the line with him. so yeah, i cared. he did try to get me into bed a couple of times, because he felt strongly toward me; however, i didn't hold that against him, because i can attract all sorts of people, and just because he couldn't resist my awesome temptations, was no reason to penalize him for it. 
really though, he tried to get me into bed more than once, even though i continually expressed that i was strictly heterosexual. people can be devious(he gave me x more than once, trying so hard, lol. i just enjoyed the drug, and kept telling him, "no touchy". ), to get what they want. so, i know what you're up to, buddy. you can't pretend to want anything other than him naked and entwined with you and your boyfriend in a gay love triangle. 
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 09, 2014 09:13 PM |
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A lot of people here seem to think that it is traumatizing when someone pays interest in you hehe, so that was a great example Fred. But I want some friend to try to drug me too now, damn you lucky Fred xD
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2014 09:42 PM |
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@ minion: you just have to have the right friends... that way, you don't ever have to pay for drugs, either.  
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 09, 2014 09:56 PM |
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Come oon, there is only so long that you can lead them on I wish it could be forever, lolol
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 09, 2014 10:02 PM |
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@ minion: no, you just have to keep them LOVING you. (see, i'm on-topic. )
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 09, 2014 10:22 PM |
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With so much LOVE to give, I wish they were my friends too xDD
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted June 09, 2014 11:20 PM |
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Edited by meroe at 23:22, 09 Jun 2014.
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xerox said:
That last part is kinda like what I'm trying to say when I say that people aren't exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. You can feel strongly about a person, without wanting to sleep with them. Maybe you think that's my agenda, but primarily, I want him to find himself rather than being constrained by the labels and stereotypes of other people. I've been very clear with him that he's dealing with this on his own terms, but that I'm here for him if he wants to talk.
Yeah that last part is nothing to do with what you have been saying re: people aren't exclusively hetero or homosexual. I am exclusively hetero. I know that without a doubt. What that last bit meant was that lasting, extremely deep platonic emotional relationships often occur between two people of different sexualities, because its the partnership/friendship that is the most important aspect. The sexuality means nothing because they can never come together that way. But the emotional relationship is practically the same as a full on partnership.
What I was trying to get at here was, and I am glad that Minion mentioned it - but this may just be what you want and its how you are choosing to read the situation. That is why you need to let him find his own way. Otherwise things could turn really nasty. And then you lose a really good friend.
Personally, I think he may very well be interested in you, but I am only going on what you have written and a lot of what has given you hope has happened while he is drunk. Hence my saying, back off a little. Don't try to force things. If its meant to be, it will happen.
You also have to remember that people have different sensibilities to your own. You may be totally comfortable with who you are. But unfortunately there are people who cannot come to terms with their sexuality, even those with supportive families. There are those whose families would even disown them. It is not your place to push someone to 'come out' just because you think they are 'whatever'. That is a particularly manipulative and uncaring thing to do. Just because it may incense you that you think he hasn't 'been honest with himself' does not give you the right to 'out' someone. You could be causing that person terrible problems.
Just be a good friend. Let him find out who he is for himself.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 16, 2014 05:27 AM |
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Two weeks ago, my girlfriend went to a gathering hosted by the Center for Applied Rationality, where she met a lot of cool people. One of the guys there took an interest in her, and they got some private time. They later met up for a date, and spent some time together later. Now they're dating.  She's really happy, and I'm happy for her.
I myself am visiting my girlfriend in a week, and hope to move in with her sometime soon.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 16, 2014 05:49 AM |
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The link appears like pseudo-science, that is, it seems to exploit the word "science" on subjects, scientific conclusions can not be reached. I respect psychoanalysis for example, I've seen it helping people and it's premises are based on a consistent logic, not superstition. But it is categorically not science and it does not pretend to be. Not everything like this (your link) is necessarily quackery, however, when they manipulate the word "science" I get very skeptical. Have you ever been to one of these?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 16, 2014 06:48 AM |
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I've never been to any of their workshops, but I know some of the people that run it and it seems legitimate. Regardless, my girlfriend wasn't at one of its workshops, she went to a party hosted by it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 16, 2014 10:32 AM |
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Edited by artu at 18:55, 16 Jun 2014.
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Quote:
Regardless, my girlfriend wasn't at one of its workshops, she went to a party hosted by it.
I wasn't suggesting they brainwashed her into cheating on you with pseudo-science, mvass I just got a little curious about the link, in a "hmmm, so what's that there" kind of way.
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 16, 2014 03:47 PM |
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I think it's safe to say I speak for the entire community when I mention how overjoyed we are that a guy boned your gf, MVass.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 16, 2014 03:49 PM |
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Pics or it didn't happen
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Living time backwards
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 16, 2014 03:54 PM |
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mvassilev said:
Two weeks ago, my girlfriend went to a gathering hosted by the Center for Applied Rationality, where she met a lot of cool people. One of the guys there took an interest in her, and they got some private time. They later met up for a date, and spent some time together later. Now they're dating. She's really happy, and I'm happy for her.
I myself am visiting my girlfriend in a week, and hope to move in with her sometime soon.
Just so I understand it, your girlfriend hooked up with another guy and now you want to move in with her? I cannot fathom how this won't end well.
____________
The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 16, 2014 03:58 PM |
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I think one of the main questions are:
Mvass, how do you feel when she praises him beyond the clouds?
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Living time backwards
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 16, 2014 04:18 PM |
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mvass is hippy. nootherexplanation.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 16, 2014 05:00 PM |
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wasn't he talking about his best friend?
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted June 16, 2014 05:17 PM |
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OhForF, happy cause she is happy.
That'd be the standard answer.
A far more key question would be whether romantic love can, by definition, entertain polygamy. Whether polygamic love is less meaningful than monogamous, and whether it can be romantic love at all.
Example. While I'm a pretty liberal person when it comes to secks - when me and my partner are in actual love, we give exactly 0 shytes about sleeping with anyone else or dating them. I devote myself to the person I'm with. Nothing to do with ethics, just with feelings. I want to give this person my all, and have no desire for others. Giving someone else my romantic interest would mean setting aside my relationship with the girl I love for a moment; not thinking about her, but giving in to desire over another. Which I do not want to do, because I'm in love.
Essentially, if I would find out she goes around dating other guys and sleeping with them, I'd feel like the feeling is not mutual, because she is interested in others and therefore we don't correspond to one another. And I'd therefore end it.
Proponents of polyamorousness tend to claim that this is selfishness. Restricting the freedom of the person we purportedly love in order to selfishly bind them to us. It's not a matter of selfishness. It's a matter of factuality. I'm not forbidding the sky to be red, I'm just not calling it blue when it's red. I'm not calling it blue when it's purple, either - although purple is a mixture of blue and red. Similarly, I'm not forbidding folks to engage in romantic dating with several people. I'm just stating that they don't give their full romantic love to any of them. Maybe the sky is red and they don't love either of them (or love them in a friendly manner, plus secks). Maybe the sky is purple and they think they romantically love all of them, while they sort of half-love them. However you put it, and I'm not dwelling into that, it's less than monogamous romantic love.
So, do you need to love someone to be in a relationship with them? No. Of course not, romantic love is serious shyte and of course you can't love someone fully as soon as you get into a relationship.
If I'm with a person but don't feel this love yet, I ask myself whether I think I could feel it, given time. If the answer is yes, if I enjoy the girl's company immensely but don't really know her enough yet etc, I build the relationship, give it my best, and act accordingly. If the answer is or becomes "no", it stops there. You can be bang-buddies if you're into that sort of thing, or whatever, but there's no point in pursuing a romantic relationship.
At no point in an actual relationship of the romantic kind is there space for polyamorous experimentation. Romantic love includes this complete, beautiful devotion to the person you love. A devotion watered down and made meaningless by splitting it over several people. It's possible to love several friends, it's normal to love several children and family members, but when you choose your romantic interest, it's a different thing altogether.
One night stands when you're single, sure. A series of one night stands, why not, although secks with a girl that doesn't mean anything to you is, basically, both of you having secks with yourself, with your ego (or, rather, the Freudian id), while the other person is there as a tool. There's no feeling of connection, of communication. It's nowhere near making sweet, sweet love.
This is the logic behind monogamy, and the difference between love and a friend you bang. Which, I'm afraid, is what you've mistaken for true love, MVass. A good friend, who you occasionally have sex with, and whom you certainly love in the purple way. But you can't be surprised if you get your pink glasses knocked off at some point.
You'll forgive me if I sound presumptious, or if I'm shoving my nose where it doesn't belong. I recon your posting it here was a kind of an invitation.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 16, 2014 05:29 PM |
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But.. how about the thing you had going with a Siamese triplet?
In my opinion, not caging down is a noble trait and something Fauch has talked a lot about, how relationships can sometimes be seen more about possession than about love for each other.
However I think Mvass may take it to odd places when he moves from accepting that his girlfriend may find other men interesting too, may even accept she slips up in their relationship because maybe she hasn't it all figured out yet and he'll be there for her while she does, but I understand it as he even encourages her to seek other men.
From what Mvass had said earlier, it looks like his girlfriend actually does have her grip put together.. and it's nice she has the option to explore other possibilities while still have Mvass as a solid rock she can always come back to.
I'm sure if she ever decides to leave Mvass, he knows if you love someone you should set them free.
But that's also why I don't think his girlfriend needs to be pushed like this, it's like Mvass is forming her and apparently she's so smitten in him that she's willing to let him push her to do stuff I'm not sure she'd ever do if not. That's where I think the difference lies between being able to love someone despite their choices and push someone to make those choices.
But in any case, the reason for my question is more along the lines of.. when people like each other they want to hear about and tell each other about stuff that's going on in their life. Of course there are stuff no one wants to hear, like a child may be embarrassed that he's started playing with himself, feeling guilt, thinking he should tell his parents, while his parents would actually rather not want to know, but isn't aware the child may feel guilt. I think it's similar with finding others awesome. Dang I couldn't stand when someone I found special praised someone else to the sky for something I thought was my role. It's much similar to this episode of friends where Monica calls a guy at work the funniest guy she ever met to Chandler's face:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BxxAEdnXfY
Edit: Follow up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt5GegtcwMQ
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Living time backwards
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