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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 11, 2018 09:01 AM |
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Edited by fred79 at 09:12, 11 Jun 2018.
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@ artu: really? So what do you think ivanka trump does? Because according to you, she should be self-sufficient because she's from a wealthier class.
Remember, i didn't say ALL females did this. I mentioned that for a reason. Also, would you deny that the courts favor the woman in a divorce? Do you even know what's going on around you? Because from everything i've seen, society is MADE to push females into this behavior, and this is the way females have been CONDITIONED to live.
The more you deny reality, the sillier you look. Just so you know.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2018 09:48 AM |
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fred, it is always you who looks silly when trying to dictate reality to people who have a much more broader capability of percieving its extensions.
And what does Ivanka Trump do? Mooch off of his husband and sit home? She is a businness woman, author, organizer... She does stuff. Or do you imagine she married to her husband so that he pays the rent or something?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted June 11, 2018 10:26 AM |
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fred79 said:
Honestly, if you want, i have all the tell-tale signs of douchebags that no self-respecting woman should ever want memorized. I could easily give you the low-down. They aren't hard to spot if you know what to look for.
I think you should start a thread in the tavern 
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uhuh
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 11, 2018 10:49 AM |
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artu said:
You are turning a nuance into a very sharp distinction. It is true women care about social status more and men are usually triggered much faster by looks. But
Well, THIS is what I was saying, so what now? I never said ALL women do this or ALL men do this, I used enough adverbs as "mostly" or verbs as "they tend to" to make it clear, stop this escalating debate logic.
@JJ
The only platitudes we read are the entire media driven propaganda and it happens that a few self-satisfied dudes here became its perfect echo as they stopped long time ago observing reality and feel empowered just because they read it somewhere and elsewhere.
Also there is no social category, gender or age, which entirely behaves in the same way, so jumping on a white horse and denouncing every-time generalizing in order to find a common nominator or a working pattern in what are some very cloudy areas is surely very progressive but as long as you propose nothing else but other platitudes or attacks, what for.
Sorry for my german, getting out from the sudden toxicity.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2018 11:24 AM |
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Better read what you saw, Sal. I didnt say you accused all women, I said you make the distinction sharper than it is, it is one thing to care for social status, it is another thing to “see men as life insurance” and in that case, MOST women with economic independence don’t.
Also, it is obnoxious everytime you disagree with something you start this rant about media propaganda as if we live in 1984 and there is one source of information coming from the Big Brother press. People filter reality through their opinions, we all do that to a degree, there is no such thing as “Sal checking out on pure gold reality, while ones who disagree with Sal reading it from fake news press.” (If anything, your sources usually have much less journalistic quality.) You interpret reality like all of us and you interpret it as a very very very opinionated person, better be aware of that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 11, 2018 11:31 AM |
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Salamandre said:
@JJ
The only platitudes we read are the entire media driven propaganda ...
Wait - you read the entire media driven propaganda? Whatever that is and whatever that is supposed to mean, I hasten to add.
What about Quote:
observing reality
? You mean, you hack into CCTV camera feeds digesting the information, and bolstered by this wealth of information you are Quote:
generalizing in order to find a common nominator or a working pattern in what are some very cloudy areas
?
And one with Quote:
enough adverbs as "mostly" or verbs as "they tend to"
You know, as in, what I read over the last pages tends to be mostly trivial, banal drivel of the cringeworthy sort. Something like that?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 11, 2018 02:19 PM |
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artu said:
And what does Ivanka Trump do? Mooch off of his husband and sit home? She is a businness woman, author, organizer... She does stuff. Or do you imagine she married to her husband so that he pays the rent or something?
Read anything she's published? Because i can write stuff and get it published, too. 
Btw, i only look silly to "progressives". And i couldn't give a snow what they think. 
@ kooka: i might do that later. Now i need to get some sleep; as i have a splitting headache.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2018 05:16 PM |
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No, fred. I haven't read it. Women Who Work: Rewriting the Rules for Success isn't exactly in my zone of interest. But if you did, I'd be delighted to hear your editorial criticism! Except, what has that got to do with anything? Did Ivanka Trump marry or pick a boyfriend to be taken care of financially, no, end of context. And it is not about examples regarding the super rich such as Trump's daughter anyway, you don't have to jump that far. Just think of any woman with a well-paying job that she's good at, a doctor, designer, store owner, whatever... Do you really believe their priority is someone to pay the bills for them when they pick their partners?
Now, had the argument been this, it could have made sense: To feel attracted, women prioritise self-sufficiency in men, in a way men don't prioritise in women. A man can even find it romantic "to take care of her woman" where as a woman won't. A woman can have more money, of course, but then she probably admires something in her partner that she thinks is way more important than money. (It's much easier to prioritise like that when you already have enough money, hence the importance of social class.) So, it is not = Majority of women choose men they can mooch off, screw those "progressives" with their unreal political correctness. Economically independent women don't want to be dependent to their partners, they just want to respect them. And social status is indeed an important parameter when it comes to this. It would be very unlikely for a heart surgeon to pick a truck driver for a husband, but that's not because he can't buy her stuff or let her live in his villa. It's not about the benefits, it's about to be able to respect. The biological origins of such an urge can be about the benefits, of course, that's "the nuance" I was referring to, in my reply to Sal. It just doesn't add up the way you think it does when a woman is also self-sufficient. And they enjoy being self-sufficient, not much different than "males."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted June 11, 2018 05:30 PM |
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Zenofex said:
I'm getting the impression (again) that you have no idea what you are talking about and are just venting frustration masked as kindergarten sermons. That "nice guy" you describe exists only in your head.
Men who believe themselves nice and as such "deserving" of sex and/or a relationship is not exactly a small phenomenon. I don't know if you've heard of the term "incel" but they're very close in attitude. Men who can't accept that the real reason no one wants to be with them is that they're creeps.
The real reason women don't want "nice guys" is that we all know they're not actually nice.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 11, 2018 07:55 PM |
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@ artu: oops! I meant milania or whatever her name is.
No, ivanka's always going to be in a different category, because she was born with a silver spoon in her mouth. Or would you deny that reality as well? Btw, it's nothing personal that i don't value your opinion. Just that when you don't use common sense or outright deny reality, i can no longer feel that you are a source of actual knowledge or wisdom. You might have your moments, but that fundamental flaw you have there negates any statement you have to give. Much like how you will not use that statement to adjust yourself accordingly and believe instead that I'M the one denying reality, purely judged from your own flaw.
And sal's right. You guys really DO nitpick what you don't like(big surprise, considering how you "progressives" think). Both sal AND myself made it clear that what we are debating isn't always the case, and yet you carry on with me like that's all i said. Take the blinders off, man, and you'll have the correct perception of what's going on around you.
All this said, i think we're off-topic; so i'll discontinue in this vein. There's really no point in debating with you anyway; you're never going to open your eyes and assimilate unbiased information, if you haven't already at this point in your life.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 11, 2018 08:21 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You know, as in, what I read over the last pages tends to be mostly trivial, banal drivel of the cringeworthy sort. Something like that?
So what?
The nature of the thread it will mostly trigger platitudes and trivial thoughts, is not like thousand years of speculating on "love" is going to bring some new perspective each time - if want that call Skeggy then and get unique mumbo jumbo. But what bothers me is what's your problem with, also why do you feel - each time - like you are invested with some mission, show the jerk you are and instead of adding your ideas, only trying to ridicule others while remaining totally off topic? Put your thoughts in, I will probably skip them but at least it will not pour oil on fire.
artu said:
MOST women with economic independence don’t.
That's a claim you do there, how you know it and what is your data on? I read it, you repeated it, yet it means nothing because you don't know what really economical independence implies. There is what, 1% of jobs assuring economic independence? And from those jobs what will be the percentage of women accessing to, 0,001%?
Being economically independent means you don't just survive, but can also eat one's fill, get a house and have vacancies from time to time. 99,9% of times, a single person can NOT become economically independent by her own, it is just not possible, when considering the cost of life and commodities. The only way to create the illusion of economic freedom is to get in couple and both have an income above the average. So, no, there is not and will not be, any soon, some new generation of progressive "economically independent" women which will redesign the ins and outs of some new society, as the problem delaying that ad infinitum is not some gender disparity myth, but the whole capitalistic system + the biological limits and characteristics.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 11, 2018 08:48 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:49, 11 Jun 2018.
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@fred
Aha, common sense and realism is what comes to mind when I think of the guy who discovered god on acid or complained how there are no tv programmes for men because they were not called that. Sorry fred, Sal has its moments of reason and perspective when he isnt overreactionary to European political correctness which can indeed be maddening sometimes but you dont even answer with substance, you fail to address arguments properly, you do it constantly and then you try to camofluage it with fake sarcasm, that’s the bad kind of sarcasm dude. You have to earn sarcasm or it will hit you back like a boomerang. So dont try to hang on to Sal’s tail, he’s at least honest and dont try to pull cheap stuff like this.
Btw, even if you were talking about Trump’s recent wife, not his daughter, that’s still not a valid example. That would only indicate Trump likes bimbos, not that women who are self-sufficient are bimbos. Jumping class by marrying the rich was clearly not the point, not needing to do that was. And I never hunt down typos, they happen to the best of us, but yours was obviously not a typo because you kept on thinking she was the wife until I referred to her as the daughter, which means for sure, you dont even know the names of the people you try to pull as examples. My realist...
@Sal
No, I dont mean just to survive, of course. But it should be quite obvious when talking about economic independence, we are not talking about buying your own island either. Having an upper middle-class life standard and being able to maintain it, even improve it fairly by your own work should suffice. There are many women like that, I’m not talking about lottery level exceptions, there are many women like that even here in muslim Turkey. My data is I know dozens of them personally, I know thousands of them through their achievments and statements. And how can you have a statistic about “if women who are self-sufficient still see men as life insurance” anyway? By preparing a pool and asking them! All of them will reply “no”, even the ones who do. So what kind of “data” do you expect?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 12, 2018 12:56 AM |
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My point about "life insurance" was to place in the context, about the guy who is ambitious, determined to climb to the top, full of workforce energy, responsible, never complaining but seeking solutions, it wasn't about "having money now" but possessing the prerequisites qualities to get the money so is a safe and long term asset. So I don't know why you considered this point being unfair, as in my comment it was clear that I consider men's hasty decision to get what they see and without checking the foundations as less intelligent and foreseeing. Life is about surviving until the end - and usually towards the end things get really complicated, thus the choice of a long time partner logically should be considered from a lot of perspectives. Which means I consider women's behavior when picking guys as smarter, it's WE who are at loss here.
About economically independent, no way. Maybe in the future we will see women taking place in the business world, which is for instance predominantly male, but as I said there are very few jobs giving that freedom. It is estimated that your income should be about 5-6k euros/month to call yourself independent and get the necessary things only. Or this amount is the average income of a couple nowadays, a lucky couple mostly. So we talk here about a very tiny percentage, less than 3%, BOTH genders.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted June 12, 2018 06:57 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 06:58, 12 Jun 2018.
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kiryu133 said:
Men who believe themselves nice and as such "deserving" of sex and/or a relationship is not exactly a small phenomenon. I don't know if you've heard of the term "incel" but they're very close in attitude. Men who can't accept that the real reason no one wants to be with them is that they're creeps.
The real reason women don't want "nice guys" is that we all know they're not actually nice.
That's a complete bull****. If a man displays interest in a woman on a higher level than "I'd hit that one", "acts nice" in other words, especially if he does it for a long time and despite the obstacles, he never does it just to get laid. Women and especially the attractive ones take that for granted but it actually costs a lot of time, efforts and depending on the individual, emotional energy to keep trying to get and keep a woman's attention. If you seriously believe that a man will invest weeks, months and sometimes even years for one-two nights of - maybe - fun, then you're so badly prejudiced toward men that you have no chance to ever understand us. That you don't at the moment is painfully obvious.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 12, 2018 10:15 AM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
You know, as in, what I read over the last pages tends to be mostly trivial, banal drivel of the cringeworthy sort. Something like that?
So what?
The nature of the thread it will mostly trigger platitudes and trivial thoughts, is not like thousand years of speculating on "love" is going to bring some new perspective each time - if want that call Skeggy then and get unique mumbo jumbo. But what bothers me is what's your problem with, also why do you feel - each time - like you are invested with some mission, show the jerk you are and instead of adding your ideas, only trying to ridicule others while remaining totally off topic? Put your thoughts in, I will probably skip them but at least it will not pour oil on fire.
I didn't know it was forbidden to just READ what everyone says, without giving an opinion, but what I read was mostly crap, so I gave a thumbs down, which isn't forbidden either.
If you don't like that, either put more effort into your writing or ignore it, but whining about criticism won't get you anywhere.
Artu should know better than to engage in hopeless, nonsensical arguments. And don't let me even start about "nice guys" expecting to get laid for "being nice", because that's per definition not "nice guys", but "calculating guys" PLAYING nice in order to obtain a reward.
Female economic independence is an issue not with a view on society, but with a view on male domination, as the women in muslim countries will tell you, since they are treated like children.
The idea you seem to have that women look to men in order to gain economic "safety" is everything Western women are fighting against - equality in job life, parental time, you name it.
However, people are different, and if your main asset is shape and looks to kill for you simply have a lot more options - if you are lucky, that is, and born in a civilized region of the world and not slave-traded into some craphole or other to toil as a sex worker.
However - the same is true when you are a man, except in that case you don't have to be that lucky with the region.
What all that has to do with love I've no idea
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 12, 2018 11:30 AM |
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Yeah, we’re kind of drifting off topic.
Sal said:
It is estimated that your income should be about 5-6k euros/month to call yourself independent and get the necessary things only. Or this amount is the average income of a couple nowadays, a lucky couple mostly. So we talk here about a very tiny percentage, less than 3%, BOTH genders.
So, are you in this 3 percent, if teachers are paid like they are over here, I’m guessing no. Would you define your life as “just surviving.” A few years ago, you were installing a swimming pool in the garden... Those are very high numbers.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
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posted June 12, 2018 01:17 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
either put more effort into your writing or ignore it, but whining about criticism won't get you anywhere.
I didn't object about criticism - that is called debating, but about you being a jerk, like usual. You didn't criticize, you dropped in and throw that we are writing platitudes. You are acting like a self entitled moderator, while not contributing at the debate, but just focusing on your usual targets. Take your pills and then do a nap if you can't resist.
JollyJoker said:
Female economic independence is an issue not with a view on society, but with a view on male domination, as the women in muslim countries will tell you, since they are treated like children.
Mixing apples with oranges. Muslim countries are muslim countries, period. Western countries do not follow same restrictions, laws and religious precepts, and western women have full independence since a long time, same opportunities and income as men. Where do you see "male domination"??
JollyJoker said:
The idea you seem to have that women look to men in order to gain economic "safety" is everything Western women are fighting against - equality in job life, parental time, you name it.
Which western women are fighting? the 7% of women who call themselves feminists? I specified that being economically independent is as hard for males as for females, is not a matter of gender but how capitalist society penalize individuals and ALSO a matter of biological differences, women can't do everything that males can, asking equal income when you can't do same is asking for a privilege, not for equality. Also, my point was that males are less foreseeing in their picks than females, so where is the problem?
JollyJoker said:
What all that has to do with love I've no idea
Everything. Making money and being successful is related to your character, personality, to your skills, your workforce stamina and such. Successful people attract other people, weird that I have to explain to you such trivial concepts.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 12, 2018 02:08 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:09, 12 Jun 2018.
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Quote:
Women can't do everything that males can, asking equal income when you can't do same is asking for a privilege, not for equality.
Such as? Boxing a heavy weight male champion? If you are talking about stamina, give me an example of a modern day job that requires such a stamina. You know, in Anatolian villages, men usually go to the coffeehouse and play cards, sending the women to work the fields all day under the sun. They can do that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 12, 2018 04:48 PM |
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Salamandre said:
...jerk, like usual...
Why don't you debate with your arse which of your two holes spews forth more brown stuff?
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted June 12, 2018 06:10 PM |
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artu said:
Such as? Boxing a heavy weight male champion? If you are talking about stamina, give me an example of a modern day job that requires such a stamina.
Sports, army, any dangerous job, the list is long. Look at tennis recent heated discussions like women asking for same pay but forgetting to precise that they play less sets (3 vs 5) so subsequently less time, this is not calling for equality but for a privilege.
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