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| Thread: tell me who is fair |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted August 15, 2008 11:45 AM |
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tell me who is fair
I had a game with a guy whose name i won`t mention. We played on let`s fight. It was around end of week 3. I am sylvan with Ossir he is necropolis with Vladimir. Whole game i am having extreme bad luck with spells, having no cleansing, no magical immunity, nor ressurection.
Here is the situation i am asking about:
i am at my utopia when sim turns break. My level is 22. I assume he is 30+ from my experience from the map. So i give all my army to secondary except arcanes, pixies and 6 green dragons. The reason is that i want to take the level up trees underground, to fight the strong level 6 , level 7 neutral, to sum up to reach him in levels.
Small army means less money to pay if he attacks me. He is one turn from my hero of course. I manage to get all my trees level up 5 levels and get up to the sand zone and visit spell shop. Unfortunately no ressurection, nor magical immunity there  .
i have little more points and go to artifact shop to buy necklace of victory. Then he comes from the dark and attacks me. He prolly read on my hero "moderate" cause i could read "high". I had ring of speed and dragon eye ring, so arcanes had 15 init  . I killed 15 wrights and surrendered w/o losses. Then he told me i was doing hit & run and he will do things he won`t do in any other situation.
What he did was awful - he mentored all his secondaries and their skills were exp dark, exp sorcery, LAST stand, swift mind armed with 7x2 ghost and cotn in the spellbook. After two fight with his secondaries i cursed him and left the game. Anyway i reported loss i don`t care about the points but want to see who`s right.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted August 15, 2008 12:08 PM |
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Did you two agree to any rules before the game?
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted August 15, 2008 12:23 PM |
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no rules for hit & run as far as i remember
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2008 12:30 PM |
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That's a funny case in the sense that natalka did not attack to do hit&run but since she went in middle she was fully expecting to be attacked. And she knew her hunters would play first with 15 init.
No I do not like this kind of play, it takes the fun out of the game. Yes it is within your power to attack and retreat, even more so when you are attacked but what then? The opponent did not do that because he was evil or something, he was pissed. I think the retaliation was beyond the limits of acceptable behaviour but the whole case could have been avoided. Because players are human, they want to play and have a good clean game with a final battle - not lose half a stack before they even lift a finger.
If the game is 'friendly' you can simply ask if you can visit the shop, summon army and then fight, besides he did have +8 levels. If not then you simply surrender without attacking, it's a good price for a town portal back home if you ask me. Or not go there and return to town for the next week's troops.
There is no set rule, it all depends how you perceive your limits and what is acceptable. Another might have taken it better but I wouldn't count on it and try that again 
This also reminds me why I dislike this map. So much rushing, first to get in the middle has +4 trees, utopia and insane stats. Not to mention that the tier 7 to leave your area can make or break your game.
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sxshopper
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 12:30 PM |
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In my opinion:
- he shouldn't blame You for hit& run because U didn't HIT! u only ran You didn't attacked him! He attacked YOu, that's not Hit& Run
- besides if there were no rules, than his tactic with hit & run was 100% fair, that's my opinion 
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fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
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posted August 15, 2008 12:35 PM |
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Edited by fiur at 12:38, 15 Aug 2008.
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well Natalka after I read your post I guess you reloaded so he could do his other stuffs...
but here is where you did mistakes... BEFORE you start a game set the rules...
if no rules are made well then all is good to go...
so what I can "see" is that you did what you could... (att. hit first with arcane an run) nothing wrong with that and no need to reload cause of that....
so next time make rules before you play then you'll never get into this tricky situation....
but I fully agree witl Elvin....
ruin the whole game... 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2008 12:43 PM |
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It's about the spirit of the rules really, hit&run is usually forbidden for a reason. Likewise be-hit%run can have the same effect even if it's not exactly the same, it's not a matter of labels but keeping the game free of arguments and enjoying the game.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 12:50 PM |
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Edited by Elit at 13:02, 15 Aug 2008.
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If not set rules all what you did and all what did your oponent is "good and right". BUT...
Hit/Run piss people very much and make only problems. What you did is classic hit/run nevermind he attack you. I have situations like your vs other oponents when they did vs me hit/run. In short its realy much pissed me. I start use evil/dirty tactics and won/piss them more from how much they pissed me. After it i never accept game again them. So better dont use hit/run. Making bad name/relation for one won is so high price.
From other side in very important games when is not set clear rules about hit/run it's possible to make not pure hit run.
Very good decision from you to report loss and not make argue from this game.
Need more womans for presidents for less wars 
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 01:11 PM |
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I'm for Hit-And-Run and all dirty tricks!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2008 01:16 PM |
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Go dishonorable stalker action!  
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 01:18 PM |
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yeah baby. Ninja code of honor!
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 01:27 PM |
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I hate hit@run ... But my credo in any game is - need to use all possibility that game offer or not to play this game at all... If game is good, must be counter for any strategy... Heroes 5 don't have counter for hit@run ?
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Nothing's impossible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=loCSLJ6IodY
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted August 15, 2008 01:39 PM |
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hit'n'run is a relative term. in my oppinion h'n'r is only when one side did not lose any unit and retreat causin heavy casulaties for the opponent and repeat that few times. and could be allowed if not specified otherwise in the beginning.
I will not consider h'n'r the following situation:
A game on a map with important amount of army in the end:
first fight: both sides having 80% of total army, long fight, red player lost 80% of its army while the blue one only 20%. red retreated.
second fight , after recruiting some more (money was an issue) , while blue was marching towards his town, the red attacked and from remaining army he lost 80% and made blue lose aswell 80%, although red was forced to retreat again. the armies became pretty much equal.
on the third and last fight, when both gather all army possible (all fight occured same week, 1 day distance in between) red managed to defeat blue for good, despite previous retreats, in a very close fight. both races was kinda melee, devil vs haven and thre were not any mass destructive spells.
so, to make a point, its not fair to accuse opponent why not surrender before all his chances are wasted, after first fight, and consider game ended in 1 shot.
mentoring his secondary heroes to a high level is indeed painful for the enemy, but its part of the game.
For inssurance, before start the game, take in consideration some setups where a pure h'n'r situations might occur and come to an agreement if its totally open game or should be some restrictions.
in most cases, game is not only black and white.
on the other hand, if u didnt like his opponent style, the way he acts/reacts u have plenty other options to choose from, u can simply pick other player in next games, but since he didnt cheat it , "fair/unfair" is not the appropriate word to use.
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chn-vimp
Hired Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 01:42 PM |
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can any one tell me what is no h/r?
i play map RR with Asassinos I am necropolis with Naadir he is Dungeon with Sinitar.I greatly respect all the stronger than he .but Because I was the first time on this map i don't get Handcuffs.He is the only hope of just h/R.because we play game before no talk about rule .and in china no any rule so all man who play online know use Stalker and good at it.so i reported a loss for Asassinos.
when i play with firedrgon no talk about rule before .i am Dungeon with Lethos he is Stronghold with Haggash. map is key of Victory.ON WEEK2 i use 7 Stalker attacked him.but he tell me i must run after 3turn? my hero spent six or seven magic and no run .because In my view only all Initiative=10 Soldiers finished action =1 turn .so Lethos was defeated LEV14.Haggash LEV17.
So I find it very strange.
what is h/r. In the end we should make the rule or not.
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sxshopper
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 01:44 PM |
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Well i don't believe what I will say......but I TOTALLY AGREE WITH TEACHY!! COULDN'T SAY IT BETTER!
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 02:01 PM |
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Hmm, as far as I understand hin-n-run (HNR) concept then our girl-warrior 100% did not qualify for being accused of it. Let me explain - there should be present 2 elements for HNR situation to occur:
1. Attack opponent ( )
Even if Nat did not attack, still there could be identified situations where passivity is regarded as possible HNR trap. For instance, Sinitar with 7 stalkers walking besides oppoenent.
Conclusion - this aspect does look dubious in current case.
2. Army sizes are IMMENSELY different.
IMO, HNR can happen only with magic and not physical attack from units. Basically, attacking with magic means no risk of losing attacker's own army while using units to deal dmg one risks everything - after all to kill large number of adversary's troops there is required relatively the same amount on attacker's side.
This is the key difference and should always be considered to determin HNR situation.
In this case, I understand opponent had swift mind. From the standpoint of probabilities there was a larger chance for his hero act before arcanes than vice versa and that would be a complete disaster for Nat. In a sense she risked even too much (perhaps did not consider swift mind).
Bottomline - if one uses units to atack instead of magic then it's no HNR.
Speaking in general, IMO, it would be a wise idea to place schackles on EVERY map and just play without any HNR rules because those cases are not clear cut usually and only bitter emotions surface.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 02:17 PM |
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Special case is with mentored units. Even if opponent does't "run" which is essential part of the HNR concept, this tactic is still very painful even if tremendously effective.
In HeroesLeague they solved this problem by their MOD where magic races have very hard access to mentoring.
What should we do? IMO, on maps where schackles are present there still should be set a rule against kamikaze...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2008 02:24 PM |
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Quote:
IMO, HNR can happen only with magic and not physical attack from units. Basically, attacking with magic means no risk of losing attacker's own army while using units to deal dmg one risks everything - after all to kill large number of adversary's troops there is required relatively the same amount on attacker's side.
Irrelevant, it can have exactly the same effect and even swift mind cannot get 15 init units often. Here's the deal: Someone could plan something like that from the very start, make himself look weak but know that he will act first and eviscerate the opponent before retreating. Risky? Yes. But whoever tells you that when you hit the arcanes he won't rez, attack again and retreat? And you would not retreat because you are the one that has the superior army.
As I said it's about the spirit and this trick could be used to gain an unfair advantage at least in my eyes. You can plainly see the possibility.
Also natalka used the very same tactics with me. I attacked, she let her flaming ballista kill half my army and then retreated while the battle was only halfway. No strider, I'm pretty sure she knew what she was doing and she should have known better since that because we argued badly about it.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 15, 2008 03:10 PM |
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Quote:
Bottomline - if one uses units to atack instead of magic then it's no HNR.
I must disagree with you 100% here Strider! Imagine Dungeon team shows up with only Blood Maidens configured like this. 7 stacks...
276-1-1-1-1-1-1
And the 276 stack runs over and attacks and kills 3 Dragons and then surrenders.. Now how is that NOT hit and run just cause they only used army? Its SAME thing as casting Meteor and the leaving.
And my opinion is... if Nat was truely not trying to trick her oppoent into attacking her so she could hit and run... then when she was attacked.. she shoulda just surrendered before doing any damage.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 03:58 PM |
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Quote:
And my opinion is... if Nat was truely not trying to trick her oppoent into attacking her so she could hit and run... then when she was attacked.. she shoulda just surrendered before doing any damage.
And what happens to the money paid for the surrender????
It costs a bomb though. So return to the person who was nice enough not to do some damage before paying 10-20k gold for the surrender?
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