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| Thread: Sorcery vs. Leadership+Empathy |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 24, 2008 02:06 AM |
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All you have to know is the modifiers. Units from your own faction, attacking with a hero that specializes in them, having the same units in the army or better yet their upgraded versions already contribute a bit.
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted August 24, 2008 09:51 AM |
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Agree, but even then, I still do not see many diplomacy joins (how I missed the days of H3 expert diplomacy which is...sort of imba).
Take an example, Irina's powerful army(including a stack of, say 50 inquisitors) encounter, say, 25 inquisitors, chance of the neutral stack joining is as follows:-
+5% for Irina's "good" alignment,
+5% for same faction,
+5% for same creatures in Irina's army,
only 15%, with diplomacy it is 25% chance of joining (and you may still have to pay!). Not very high I say, besides the true power of diplomacy is to assimilate those neutral stacks that grow week by week (rather than those "week of......" creatures).
(Of course, if the neutrals are imperial griffs that is another story, but how often does creature specialisation come into effect?)
But with some luck, extra troops do join you, and can be useful for cannon fodder or increasing the quantity of troops (esp tiers 5 to 7).
In one of my XL games, month 1 week 4 turned out to be week of angel (imagine my delight), but even then, not many stacks of angels joined my troops (much to my chagrin).
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 25, 2008 01:26 PM |
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Oh noes, that was my secret strategy. Kythra with sorcery and empathy. I was so sure that I was the only one using it 
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 25, 2008 01:56 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 13:58, 25 Aug 2008.
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Quote:
I had an empathy + sorcery Kythra and sometimes acted twice before Jhora did. This is an old trick against wizards and counterspell in general.
aha...
Edit: how can i double-bold the OLD thing in that?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 25, 2008 02:15 PM |
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try to underline it with [ u ] maybe?
old or not, I invented it myself.. perhaps because I was the only dungeon player in my team
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 25, 2008 02:35 PM |
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We can argue about copy-rights. What proof do you have? I have Elvin who's seen this plus a few other toh players. 
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted September 07, 2008 04:20 PM |
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Quote:
Hmm Diplomacy is a skill that is so easy for me to forget that it can be usefull, but wait let me se the manual, Only 10% increase the chance of hostile to join, and reduces(cost of recruting from 3 to 2).
Hmm useful or not.
Yes if you have luck and you will find the stack that actualy join you
Not to mention that in random maps many neutral troops are now "mixed neutrals" (even recall seeing 4 different units - that is a mini-army!)
Now I shall talk about Sorcery
Sorcery basically helps in...obviously spellcasting, with the main skill reducing intervals between two consecutive spellcasting (making hero's turn come faster), giving 10%, 20% and 30% reduction at basic, advanced and expert, respectively.
Looks more predictable, though this only works between hero's consecutive spellcasts, not actions. This means that, strictly speaking, the magic heroes benefit most (though might heroes with Master of... abilities can also use this to their advantage).
Now let's analyse the abilities:-
1. Basic Abilities
(a) Arcane Training
It is always a boon to be able to expend less mana, be it in combat or for adventure spells (should apply for adventure spells, correct me if not so), plus this is required for academy and dungeon ultimate abilities.
(b) Magic Insight
The ability to learn level 3 spells may be enticing, but how often are these spells casted (some more at no expertise)? What is the chance of getting book of power so that hero can learn level 4 spells as well, same at no expertise)? Answer is not high for both questions, frankly speaking. Even might heroes are better-off by specialising in one magic school.
(c) Mana regeneration
Allows mana regeneration at (20% x knowledge) mana per day. With week of meditation, this can become very scary, particularly for lots-of-knowledge wizards. Otherwise, it still allows faster regaining of mana. However, this ability automatically blocks off the chance of getting ultimate ability (Nur: "Sigh").
2. Non Faction-specific Advanced Abilities
(a) Arcane Brillance
+2 spellpower would be more welcome for might heroes and wizards (what is +2 spellpower to warlocks and necromancers?), though getting the extra spell is really a gamble (and frankly, unlikely to change the outlook of the game -- you should not depend on getting a specific spell to hope for victory, especially lvl 1 to 3 spells)
(b) Arcane Excellence
+2 spellpower? Same as above. +100 mana? That is equivalent to 6 instant travel or 7 town portal casts (and many casts of other spells). Some reward for excellence! Sadly, only one-time (well, the memory mentor trick is a BIG bug), so use it wisely.
(c) Counterspell
Negates enemy (hero/unit) spells. Good...only for wizards in effect, since only they have the most knowledge (of course, if your hero has crown of Sar-Issus and tarot deck that is another story...). Against other heroes (esp warlocks and necromancers) with this ability, I will gladly let my hero/units cast spells first (especially the mana-heavy ones) to expend enemy hero's mana, then attack, knowing that hero can only use racial skills or normal attack. A double-edged sword if not properly managed.
(d) Distract
Make enemy's turn come slower after casting a spell. I have not used this ability often, but I can see that it partly counters against other Sorcery users, though not highly effective imo.
(e) Erratic Mana
Allows some chance of mana cost reduction. Definitely most useful for warlocks (and maybe necromancers and might heroes) since they really need this ability to prolong their spell-casting prowess. My only cringe is that it is percentage based. 50% may be high, but it may not activate exactly when you want it (for high cost spells), no wonder it is "erratic".
3. Faction-specific Advanced Abilities
(a) Boneward
Decreases magical damage to necromancer's troops. Note that it aids necromancer's troops, not just necropolis creatures, so this makes the troops more durable slightly. As if the troops need better durability...the necromancer's main problem is low (or no) attack, not low defence. Damage reduction is always welcome, but how useful is it if the troops cannot inflict much damage?
(b) Soulfire
Corpses explode in fireball, damaging adjacent units. But what is the rationale in spellpower 1 for base units and 2 for upgraded units? Can't they be a bit...stronger (considering that consume corpse is quite necessary for demonlords)? Even corrupted soil seems better...
All in all, sorcery is a reliable skill in getting hero to act more often, but most of its abilities are a mixed bag and quite "erratic", if I am permitted to use this word. This could be a matter of taste, but I find the abilitites too erratic for me. Though I am inclined to have one haven hero take sorcery in every game(2%, I know, but may be worth the wait).
I don't really play stronghold, so cannot comment on their Shout skill and its abilities. Perhaps somebody can contribute?
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 10, 2013 03:58 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 16:09, 10 Apr 2013.
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Ask Kispagat how he played dungeon - always with empathy. 
Counterspell gets owned by 2 stacks of lvl 6 casting much better imo. Then you can have like 2 spells that go through wohoo
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 10, 2013 09:19 PM |
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nice resurrection nat
On topic
Sorcery increases the cast rate of non mass spells by 42%, not 30%. Still empathy is better, as it may kick in before the 1st hero turn comes thus breaking an otherwise balanced game. Empathy works very well with mass haste too  Also academy with miniarties, haven with maeve boost and whyngaal led imba elves can abuse it a lot
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skeleton_king
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2013 12:05 AM |
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leadership and empathy is better then sorcery becase u can cast more spellz not only dmg spedlls u can cast 2 buff insted of a improved implosions. and u can attack with hero
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Dj0rel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 14, 2013 12:47 AM |
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Well in my (admittedly limited) experience Empathy is the most potent in the hands of a Wizard. Why? Well there are several reasons. Firstly there are initiative boosting miniarties. If you use miniarties to boost the initiative of your troops their turns will come more often and as a consequence they will get positive morale more often.
Then there is another Wizard skill that comes in handy. Artificial Glory. This will enable not only your golems to get positive morale but your war machines too and thus increasing the number of stacks that affect Empathy from 6 to 10 (golems + war machines). Also I should mention that, for the Wizard, Artificial Glory is one of the requirements for Retribution skill.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2013 12:07 PM |
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Quote:
Well in my (admittedly limited) experience Empathy is the most potent in the hands of a Wizard. Why? Well there are several reasons. Firstly there are initiative boosting miniarties. If you use miniarties to boost the initiative of your troops their turns will come more often and as a consequence they will get positive morale more often.
Then there is another Wizard skill that comes in handy. Artificial Glory. This will enable not only your golems to get positive morale but your war machines too and thus increasing the number of stacks that affect Empathy from 6 to 10 (golems + war machines). Also I should mention that, for the Wizard, Artificial Glory is one of the requirements for Retribution skill.
You need a wizard hero only to craft the miniarties, then mentor some knight/ranger and go for might build + light/dark.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 14, 2013 12:32 PM |
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OMG ABUSE! Never liked this exploit but this game is based around exploits anyway.
I am not too fond of empathy with dungeon. Maybe if the map allows you to get numerous artifacts(hopefully defense and initiative) but otherwise it's easy for an opponent to charge you with tactics or aura of swiftness and start insta-killing your stacks. Of course if you manage to charge with grim raiders and also get a good firebreath then things change considerably.
PS I really love empathy with mass haste/RM/cleansing against academy Had some insane charges with that, risky but so much fun. You can build some crazy momentum and mop the floor with them if you're lucky.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2013 05:31 PM |
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Nah, i prefer mass deflect + eternal light vs might academy, also vengeance as it cant be mirrored
And knight/ranger led academy even if imba is fun to play against, just get some dark magic and show your opponent that no magic mirror = sadness
On topic - dungeon can make some use of empathy but they need defense + last stand.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted April 16, 2013 08:13 PM |
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Magical immunity and you are double sad )
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2013 04:02 PM |
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Rune of magic control and HES 3PLE SAD!
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