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| Thread: Winning is Everything |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Pure_Chaos
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
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posted December 03, 2001 12:10 PM |
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Winning is Everything
Hi,
Quite recently I have been getting more and more into playing H3 vs friends and in my search of tactics I frequently scan this board, but never post. Yeah I am a Lurker.
Anyway, I have been really surprised by the content here. Why? Well there are so many posts about so called 'honor'. In my opinion winning is everything. Sure playing the game is about fun, but winning is a large part of that fun. In the several matches I had with friends neither I nor them showed each other any mercy. We hit and run each other, used conflux and hired the best heroes always mastering the diplomacy. We never allowed reloads and the spells/relics we found were used and exploited to maximum.
This is FUN in my opinion, there shouldn't be any rules to a game and if there are, they should be broken freely, like in real war. Whatever it takes (no hacks of course). I mean giving your enemy a reload gives him another chance and that might make you lose.
Now we are a bunch of good friends and we play like that and I suspected that in truly comepetitive environment (eg. tournamenets) the games were even more brutal. Apparently it is not so. Why not? Playing by rules wouldn't satisfy me and there is no way I would ever show mercy to anyone. Plus the game is meant to be played like it came out.
Now I come from harsh RTS gaming where rules are always broken, allies are freely backstabbed (sometimes just for fun, hell I've done it), experts constantly look to enhance their records by newbie killing and noone complains. And in some online RPGs some people even got into groups, just to prey on new, low level players looking for free items and pure enjoyment they get out of the kill.
So what do you think? Do you make rules? Do you break them? Do you show mercy to anyone? Is winning everything to you?
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If I were a banana and you were a monkey, would you eat me?
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 03, 2001 12:13 PM |
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Guess you are right 
Also there is no such thing as Geneva Convention here
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 03, 2001 01:08 PM |
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Well this tournament is called TOH, or Tournament of Honor (Not Hamsters, as some of u might think  )
Guess thats why there is so much talk about it, as for other online games where u prey on newbies and the like, use every form of cheat code u can get away with.
Well that aint for me.
When I first started I was actually pretty happy I had some games against other newbies before the big guns started to smash me up. At least that gave me a fighting chance.
The reason why some makes rules is because if ya dont, it is often pretty clear who is gonna win the game just by looking at first day draw.
For instance Ive only managed to beat Thant once on BfH, and that was just because I got Ryland who walked right up and took recanters day 5 with a stack of joiners, or perhaps 3 stack of joiners 
If u play vs some of ur friends in Hot-seat mode, then yeah, thats fun because u can see eachother etc.
But if u play a game for 4 hours and then loose ur main to some gargoyles because u forget to switch ur army, and the critters get morale, that aint fun at all. Not for u, and not for ur opponent. (Well okay, some find it hilarious, coz they get a free win )
And last but not least, alot of the veteran players simply dont enjoy a game where u know u will win before u even load the game up, thats usually the case when u play a newbie, cept offcourse if the newbie is really another veteran under a different handle
Guess thats my 2 cents.
Defreni
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Titan_888
Known Hero
Wind of Change
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posted December 03, 2001 01:29 PM |
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No Comments!!!
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted December 03, 2001 02:38 PM |
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Losing to this sort of thing may not be very much fun...
but winning like like this is even less fun!!!
enough said I think
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The Dead Walk!!!
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 03, 2001 02:44 PM |
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Edited By: woods on 3 Dec 2001
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the more rules the more honor....?
@defreni
first i wanna say that i'd often enjoy ur postings, but this one seems a lit bit curious....
though i dont agree with pure chaos and i'ld never join a community like that one he's described, i dont understand ur comments :
'' The reason why some makes rules is because if ya dont, it is often pretty clear who is gonna win the game just by looking at first day draw. ''
-> sorry noone knows that a opponent use hit/run on day 1, and 'no h&r' seems the most popular special rule
and btw : two players two different defintions of 'no h&r'
'' But if u play a game for 4 hours and then loose ur main to some gargoyles because u forget to switch ur army, and the critters get morale, that aint fun at all. Not for u, and not for ur opponent. (Well okay, some find it hilarious, coz they get a free win )''
- u are right , that isnt fun....
its never fun to call oneself a stupid idiot...
but pls.... have a look at chess, without saying j'adoube before u must end ur move without gettin a new chance....
i personally would never ask to reload, i normally say no
if my opponent offers me reloading - why ? i want to disgrace my opponent as an easy-winner
-woods
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 03, 2001 06:11 PM |
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Well Woods, I like ur post aswell.
The reason my post seems abit curious is because I actually tried to put myself into the mind of the generel community.
I didnt ask for a reload in that game, infact Ive only asked for a reload once in my life And that was due to circumstances I had no influence on.
But I do like alot of the honor threads, specially coz this is the tournament of HONOR.
In my little world honor has connotation to chivalry, which nicely goes hand in hand with the world of Erathia.
Nuff said I think
Hope that was explanation to a post I know was pretty incompatibel with the rest of my posting, lol.
Defreni
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Zanudas
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 03, 2001 06:26 PM |
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hmmm!
I have to say that I agree with chaos! Coz U play for win! Ot at least not to loose!
And its happenes in all games! And in real life too 
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Regrads from Nowhere.
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 03, 2001 07:43 PM |
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woods posting = motor is gonna reply :P
Quote:
but pls.... have a look at chess, without saying j'adoube before u must end ur move without gettin a new chance....
Ya but no chess player would force ya to make a move if u get in touch with ur king by accident , happened to me in some tournament games that i touched my king with my arm for example.
And if my mouse is acting weird and i accidently click somewhere i didnt want to , its the same.
Same when playing chess on the net. A couple of times i made the wrong move because i clicked wrong due to mouse trouble. And in most games my opponent granted me to undo that move that happened by accident
I remember a german league game with someone who tried to get the helmet on SD 3 with 5 chaoshydras and he died , we reloaded and he died again, we laughed our butts off and we loaded again and guess what ? he died in the 5th or 6th try he managed to survive with 1 hydra left and guess what ? I lost that game after all .
But i really enjoyed the game . I know i would have won when i hadnt given him the reload but was much more fun that way . ( dont think now u all can have 6 reloads per day vs. me ).
If i offer/ask for reload or not depends on the person i play
Motorschaaf
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Pure_Chaos
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
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posted December 03, 2001 09:12 PM |
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Yeah, I guess I understand now. This IS tournament of Honour after all. Plus as far as I understand the community here is not huge and therefore people know each other very well.
Taking for Instance multiplayer Starcraft where you can have many different accounts and there are 30,000+ playing everyday and that I guess gives freedom to people to do absolutely whatever they want and as long they don't use hacks, Blizzard (the company) doesn't care. I have seen plenty of complaints and they said backstabbing is part of the game.
I guess here is you do whatever you want noonw will simply play with you. I have been to TOH site and they say there are no rules, so what happens for example if there is a rule in the game: No Hit and Run and the person breaks it and wins the game, TOH won't do anything right?
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If I were a banana and you were a monkey, would you eat me?
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 04, 2001 01:03 AM |
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yeah, that's why I prefer no rules.
If someone proposes a rule ... like no H/R, and they use H/R against you and win or lose ... then I believe it is your duty to give him/her no honor when you report win/loss.
I always look at my opponent's ToH profile before I start a game.
I mostly focus on (in order):
- maps played
- honor rating
- opponents played
- win / loss record
I can figure out A LOT from these things.
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted December 04, 2001 03:01 AM |
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Pure_Chaos, I agree with you.
I run TOH, and my focus has always been NO rules. Rules are made by the players; and I have repeatedly forced others to play no rules when they play me. I have noticed a trend to more and more rules made by players as TOH has grown older, and that is simply due to newer 'tricks' and methods to exploit the game appear and become commonplace. They are however, part of gameplay, and I avoid rules.
So I let TOH players have maximum freedom, in which no rules are enforced, but any rule mutually agreed on by both parties is acceptable.
p.s. I orignally came from the RTS community myself, hence my lack of patience with very long drawn out games. Man I miss Total Annhilation, C&C, and the bunch......
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2001 04:00 AM |
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Quote: Ya but no chess player would force ya to make a move if u get in touch with ur king by accident
Such a dispute happened in a game between Polugajewski and Winants some years ago, shortly before Polu died.
1989 in Zürich, Korchnoi lost a dead drawn ending against Karpov, because he accidentally touched his King.
Did you know that when Petrosjan and Korchnoi played their candidate matches, a wooden board had to be put under the table, to prevent them from kicking each others?
Chess has quite a number of "dirty" aspects, too, especially when one or both players are in time trouble.
Granting reloads/takebacks for mouseslips is okay, but I find many things that people associate with the word "honor" very silly. For example a reload if the opponent overestimates his chances in a combat. If someones takes high risks, attacks Crypts and Griffin Conservatories before he is able to cope with the 10% worst case, the chance of losing such a fight is the price he has to pay. Allowing him a reload here is not honorable, it´s simply giving him something he doesn´t deserve.
The word honor has been badly misused, often for selfish and dishonorable reasons, more than any other. Some top-ranked players who post here even make up a crude sort of Heroes3 morals code, saying that winning by means of army size and better artifacts is good and rightful, and on the other hand calling the use of a strong spell like Armageddon unfair. I´m quite sure that self-righteousness is not what Vesuvius meant, when he chose the name for this tournament.
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2001 04:28 AM |
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reloads...
Quote:
Allowing him a reload here is not honorable.
I disagree.
Not honorable is offerning a reload if u are not willing to give it.
Quote:
Some top-ranked players who post here even make up a crude sort of Heroes3 morals code
saying that winning by means of army size and better artifacts is good and rightful, and on the other hand calling the use of a strong spell like Armageddon unfair. I´m quite sure that self-righteousness is not what Vesuvius meant, when he chose the name for this tournament.
I'm not top-ranked but: Armageddon is unfair, winning by army and arts is good and rightful.
Arma+Surrenderschaaf
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 04, 2001 08:17 AM |
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Quote:
The word honor has been badly misused, often for selfish and dishonorable reasons, more than any other. Some top-ranked players who post here even make up a crude sort of Heroes3 morals code, saying that winning by means of army size and better artifacts is good and rightful, and on the other hand calling the use of a strong spell like Armageddon unfair. I´m quite sure that self-righteousness is not what Vesuvius meant, when he chose the name for this tournament.
99.7% agreed.
Sometimes rules are used as a tool of advantage instead of fun. Same goes with people's notion of "honor".
With a rule like "no h/r" ... 95% of the time, only the player with bigger army / better hero will win. Such is about as fun as taking 2 cans and crushing them against eachother to see which one will break.
Ok, so maybe that's a bit extreme, but it makes the game much more linear in it's strategy:
1- develop hero
2- gather forces
3- get relics
4- attack
To say that this strategy and ONLY this strategy is the "honorable" way to win ... is bullspit! There are other honorable methods, and those who refuse to consider them ... well ... just havn't played enough to find them.
as for whether armageddon is unfair or not ... I think it's fair ... just VERY powerful ... maybe too powerful ... and close behind it is implosion.
In my opinion:
- armageddon should be a lvl 5 spell
- sacrifice should be a lvl 4 spell
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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Pure_Chaos
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
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posted December 04, 2001 10:34 AM |
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Armageddon Lv5?
Nah, it would make it too rare, I would make TP a level 5, on large maps TP can turn the game around.
Oh yeah and last time I played a hotsit game with a friend, he used this tactic ALOT: He would clone phonix and double stike with them, once they got a morale boost so it was 3 phoenix strikes. Needless to say I lost. Gotta love conflux phoenixes in swarms
And I cound't agree more about giving reloads: If you took a gamble at Utopia, Conservatory, etc.. and lose your main hero, you deserve to lose. Its same as making tactical error in any other game, taking advantage of that error is a good way to win.
Another thing: We actually almost never fight with armies. All of them are hit and run to death, its just a showdown of elementalists heroes: who is more powerfull and so far its very fun
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If I were a banana and you were a monkey, would you eat me?
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grythandril
Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
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posted December 04, 2001 10:46 AM |
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I have now passed the point of trying to win for fun.
Playing the game is far more rewarding against other players than trying to win all the time.
If that makes sense.
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 04, 2001 01:21 PM |
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Edited By: woods on 4 Dec 2001
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fun fun fun....
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quote:
The word honor has been badly misused, often for selfish and dishonorable reasons, more than any other. Some top-ranked players who post here even make up a crude sort of Heroes3 morals code, saying that winning by means of army size and better artifacts is good and rightful, and on the other hand calling the use of a strong spell like Armageddon unfair. I´m quite sure that self-righteousness is not what Vesuvius meant, when he chose the name for this tournament.
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i totally agree with u, lews
normally one can ignore these group of high-ranked, ranked or non-ranked players... - let them play as they want, who cares...? and who cares what i've said ?
h3-community is large enough for all....
but thats theory
there are some guys wo fight a crusade for their (crude?) ideas...
and some crusaders are successfull in formation of opinion because of highranked or former reputation
the 'art of discussion' changed - name-callings ,slander or insults - all is possible....
sometimes there isnt any fun in entering the zone (or mb other h3-chats)- its curious but often these are members of the 'honor-bunch' ...
- you couldn't laugh if u've dropped from zone because a vet told u to use alt-f4 ---- man , u must be stupid !
- u've another opinion of h3-sportsmanship ---- man . shut up, learn playing heroes instead of criticism (whatever that means...)
oki, i know we are in the 3rd year of h3-tourney, everything is well known, mb its human nature to act like that
i do hope we are able to pass the last 6 months of h3-gaming with tolerance for all sides - but we should beware of slandering the other side...
back to the topic ....
as whiggy said - best way to avoid problems is 'no rules'
some days ago i'd had a clan match vrs. grandelf , we both said 'no rules', then grand said that he wouldn't hit&run as long as the opponent begin... i immediately answered the same. some minutes later i felt quite unhappy with that agreement (what does hit&run mean ? i didnt want to use it with my main...but for sure my scouts ever throw an arrow before surrendering. and asking grand now its just like laming. so hoping that a situation like that didnt happen)
btw in that match many thoughts for nothing, it was bob2, he was lvl2-necro, me lvl1-fortress - he forced me to take utopia but the 45(?) dreads let only 2 of my chaoshydras pass...my 2nd must return from underground to 'rearm' main, last chance was a 'small' utopia... but the dragons killed me easily. i said 'congrats' to grand, he off course offered reload only knowing that i've lost my main. but in fact i would only stole his time if i continued match...
so, doesnt matter if grand offers reload or not.... he's a very honorable player, and i have to think before i make such a 'non rule' again....
at least i think the only tourney where s.o. is allowed to reload and reload and reload is a 'fun-tourney' (?), for me toh isnt a fun-tourney....
i think everyone must decide if playing for fun (and fun only) or playing in a league....
sorry for that book
-woods
yes, i've nothing to do with that german faction of 'most honorable mass rulers'
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 04, 2001 02:34 PM |
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Hehee Woods
Lews is german
But ya all know I agree with Lews, no rules is the best, at the same note.
When H&R first became the hot topic, I had no problems playing ppl who wanted the no H&R rule, coz in my definition it just meant, dont take a black dragon on ur main and throw implo, chain or arma at ur opponent. Fine with me, eventhough I like when my opponent take one black and try to throw spells at me
But when it suddenly became, u couldnt throw a spell the same turn as u where retreating etc. well that just plain pisses me off.
If I on the 4. round of combat sees I cant win the game, I wanna be able to throw my implo and get the hell out off there. And if somebody attacks me first or second week on an open map with superior forces, be sure I will throw what I got at u and retreat.
But no it has come down to ppl screaming H&R if they attack my scouts, and I throw Magic arrow at them and retreat, to recover the art my scout has picked up.
Well Im a big talker for the fact that there is room enough for us all, but I simply just dont understand all these rules anymore.
I tried to get a clan game on Boomerang, when I was level 1 miltary philo, my opponent was naturist. He actually wanted that we couldnt get any joiners at all. I was appaled, I mean castle aint that strong week 1, and I always rely on some joiners in one form or another. Well needless to say, I said gl getting a game and whent in search of another opponent.
Just a story to show, that even I have become abit tired off all them extra rules.
Defreni
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted December 04, 2001 04:04 PM |
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Too Rule or not too Rule that is the question
Well I always seem to stick my foot in my mouth when I post but just cant stand it have to put my 5 cents in =)
Rules Rules Rules. They do pose a problem dont they. I guess I would be concidered a rule maker. Only rule I ever REQUEST ( never insist ) is No H&R.
And it still amazes me that there are so many people who are blinded by the unstopable unbalancing nature of H&R. I still to this day cannot understand how people think this tactic makes anysense in game. What is the point to a game if I start with Castle and my opponent starts with Fortress, and my opponent spends 3 weeks building and buying all his men and all I gotta do is run at him with 1 ArchAngel and can beat him?????????
1 Unit that can beat an ENTIRE empire!! Sure everyone says it is part of the game. But IMO it is an oversite that 3do did not forsee. There are many aspects of this game that advanced players have found ways to exploit. Several of which 3do made patches for. But somehow never made a patch for the hit and run clause.
Anyways no sense in starting a hit and run thread all over again there is already one of them, that will be argued for eternity without resolve.
So the bottom line is, people who like to fight entire games with there 1 Fastest creature then play other that enjoy that. You guys can take turns winnning and losing games back and forth based on who gets the fastest creature. If that is fun to you then I say " Go for it!! "
But I also say dont give the rule makers any flack. You dont have to play them. If you dont like to try and win games without hit and run then dont play them simple. But people should quit name calling and saying that one way is ruining the online game for the other.
As for Startcraft and those kinds of communities. I played Warcraft and StarCraft before I found Simyar(TOH) ladder tourny. And it is exactly as they say. No rules no standards no honor no structure at all. People use any cheat code possible, people use more than one computer, more than one account, they do anything to get the win. It is SICK! I was soo relieved to find a tourny like TOH. It is not TOH that is at fault for the H&R. It is 3do that dropped the ball on the programming in that aspect.
Since you guys always seem to want to relate this game to real life war I got an example for you......
USA is at war with Terrorism and any state that supports it. Right now Afganistan ( who supports it) is our first target in this war. Now according to you we should do ANYTHING we need to to win this war NO rules! So then if this is so then we should just go over there and drop an A-Bomb and kill everyone. All innocent people and civilians! See there are RULES in war, at least Countryies with standards and morals and honor! We fight only the enemy not the innocent people. We are trying to fight this war and get at the enemies without killing innocent people. So basically we are having to find a way to win this war with a set of rules in place. We are at somewhat of a disadvantage when these cowards are hiding in the ountains and behind women and children knowing we wont shoot through them. But we dont say HELL with the rules and kill everyone.! So your claims of war having no rules is CRAP! Or I guess it depends on which side you are looking from. If you are looking from the side of Terrorism where they kill unsuspecting innocent people and call it a good casue then I would expect you to say there are no rules in war.
Same goes for Heroes3. Some people want a good hard fought game where you earn a win. Not find the cheapest dirtiest trick to steal a win. USA will tactifully win this war without breaking its rules. Where as you guys would just send a nuke over and kill the entire country and innocents cause the TACTIC was available to you. LOL
Jinxer
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