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Salamandre
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posted March 11, 2018 07:51 PM |
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No, what Piper is implying is that such super powers are a bonus, not an alternative to hard work. Take her example, she clearly wants to do money, yet she has to use her natural charm combined with some original concept where she plays some intriguing role, otherwise nobody would subscribe, exclusive bimbos are part of the past now.
I will give a concrete example, Khatia Buniatishvili against Lola Astanova. Both have more than generous body forms and an aggressive sexual presence. Yet the first proves great skills when playing while the second emphasizes only on her physical plastique, result: men are more attracted to the first because they prefer to consider such bonus as a natural mirror of equally exquisite temperament and personality, as opposed to Botox only. Men are way more romantic than what feminist hags decided for them.
In fact, what modern feminism want is revenge, they had all that they wanted, equality, and now seek for stepping higher than men by forcing on positive discrimination, the such called quotas. Naturally, it will end back at the bottom again, as men will avoid hiring or dating such type of women, then those women will again cry to sexism and so on. The market decides the hierarchy, not the sex.
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artu
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posted March 11, 2018 08:17 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:19, 11 Mar 2018.
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Sal, "the original concept" you talk about IS the bimbo. She's acting of course, but it's really quite incredible that you do not even realize this. And no, of course a lot of progress has been made but such gender roles are not a complete thing of the past, take for instance Piper preaching to the choir (as the fantasy you expect) about how "men are [naturally] more assertive" while completely disregarding one gender's assertiveness is taken as spontaneus, hence rewarded, while the other's is labeled as b*tchy. There are zealots in every ideology, that's something else, but even a Sociology 101 student can bury her arguments about what feminism is, in just two seconds. That's WHY she presents them. It is the fantasy she's selling: The girl in peace with her submission. Men and women are assertive with different nuances, different mannerisms, they are not identical but "how women act shy so earn less" as she puts it, is, a sociological outcome, not biological. You would have realized that in a second, had you been able to compare with countries where they are forced to be really "shy."
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Salamandre
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posted March 11, 2018 09:55 PM |
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lol, relax the "progressist" and slow-on with your feminist agenda. We are in the funny links thread and Piper is successfully trolling the feminists, and I would not exchange her and her unique grace for any of your sneering and boring students, smartness does not always equals attractiveness. Then the equality is not only measurable in pay checks, but also by observing the diffuse and powerful influence women have on men - using such unique charms and intelligence to attain impossible goals. That's why feminists look like fighting windmills, they believe only in the materialistic aspect, while what ensures the delicate coexistence between men and women are precisely their differences. Awful and blend world you want to create there.
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artu
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posted March 11, 2018 10:07 PM |
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Hey, I just pulled a one-liner in the beginning, you were the one who wrote the paragraph Mr. Funny Links Thread. Anyway, in short, you always reduce movements you dont agree with into their most overzealous caricature and build on that. Feminists are not like that at all.
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fred79
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posted March 12, 2018 03:29 AM |
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They don't have to be overzealous, but many are. Even the outspoken feminists here at hc were bigots. They got upset because they faced opposition here, and left for one of those "safe spaces" which seem to be all the rage now. Meaning, they'd rather have an echo chamber for their sexist and hateful ways. The worst of them, anyway.
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Salamandre
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posted March 12, 2018 09:53 AM |
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artu said:
you always reduce movements you dont agree with into their most overzealous caricature and build on that. Feminists are not like that at all.
Yes they are. In Europe the gender quotas laws are being discussed - in Canada they are already stone law, 50% of government are women. Hard to agree with a movement which puts a gun to your head because otherwise only someone insane would agree with.
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artu
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posted March 12, 2018 10:43 AM |
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I will answer in detail but then dont say it's the Funny Links thread. I am not talking about a specif law here and there (which would require deeper contextual information both about the law itself and how it is applied anyway.) In general, even in most developed countries, patriarchy is not completely over in cultural terms, most feminists are reasonable people who oppose that. Some to an activist degree, some not. They are not the blood-thirsty, revenge seeking zealots that you speak of. It's about awareness, and by awareness what I mean is this: As a man, I never even noticed the ratio in the graph below, it feels "natural" to me. But a feminist noticed and they calculated. You can not, of coruse, put a dialogue quota, forcing it on scriptwriters, no sane person would suggest that. But look at the very consistent lack of balance. Awareness transforms things, not necessarily by force or even quotas but by changing mindsets. And that is only fair game.
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Zenofex
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posted March 12, 2018 01:00 PM |
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I'm not quite sure what this graph is supposed to prove, a movie does not get better or worse depending on the number of words put in the mouths of male or female characters. The new Star Wars movie tries to force some such daftly misguided pseudo-feminist agenda down people's throats and it fails so much that it's hated equally by the male and the female audience.
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artu
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posted March 12, 2018 02:51 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:51, 12 Mar 2018.
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It's not "a movie." It's a pattern. (And quite an ironic one considernig how men always complain about women talking too much.  )
Female lead was not the problem of the new SW movies, btw.
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OhforfSake
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posted March 12, 2018 02:58 PM |
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artu said:
It's not "a movie." It's a pattern.
Wouldn't you also have to show that the pattern is unique for only award winning movies and not usual for all kinds of movies or at least significant for the award winning ones?
I imagine something along the lines of all (or most) heroes wear shoes, hence if you need a hero look for a person with shoes on, ignoring that most villains (or people for that matter) probably also wear shoes.
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Zenofex
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posted March 12, 2018 03:18 PM |
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artu said:
It's not "a movie." It's a pattern. (And quite an ironic one considernig how men always complain about women talking too much. )
Female lead was not the problem of the new SW movies, btw.
It is certainly not the only problem but it just as certainly is a problem - check a random bunch of youtube videos where women complain about the stupid usage of "feminist" images and messages in the movie. I'm talking about The Last Jedi by the way, The Force Awakens is another pile of **** for different reasons.
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Salamandre
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posted March 12, 2018 07:15 PM |
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The silence is gold, someone said. If prohibiting females from too much talking is making movies better, I don't want balance.
Now, more seriously, I recall one of the greatest ever movies, Casablanca, where Ingrid Bergmann shares the screen - and the glory- with Humprey Bogart and they simply blow everything else. No presence is less, no more. This talk about "females should do in same number what males do" sounds to me stupid, sorry. Here where I work, they go crazy about how only 1% of females are composers or orchestra conductors, yet only 1% of applicants for both disciplines are females. If females are not interested into composing music or conducting orchestras, why would you want to force them...
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artu
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posted March 12, 2018 08:36 PM |
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There are many things superficial about your logic there, where to begin...
1- When wanting to become an X, the only parameter isnt your personal interest, it is also the social circumstances that develop your interests and the estimation of your chances to actually become one, 500 years ago, no woman wanted to become an actress or a cello player either, because it was considered a taboo. I'm not suggesting all jobs must be equally interesting to both genders by default but norms still play a key factor in determining your tendencies, obviously more than biology.
2- This is not about lack of interest from women to be in the movies anyway, millions of women want to be actresses, they are already in the movie industry, they can act just as well. This is about the roles written for them.
3- When it comes to that, this is not about forcing a superficial/political balance that doesn't exist in real life either. Around fifty percent of the population are always female, they talk as much as we do but this isnt reflected on the screen. It would be understandable if we were only talking about specific movies in which males dominate because of the content; there will be significantly less female presence in a WWII movie describing the battlefield for instance, maybe even none. But all the best picture winning movies from all genres, including a romantic comedy such as Shakespeare in Love or even a film about a female boxer as the lead role such as Million Dollar Baby getting such unproportional writing, without even a single exception in 25 years, that is obviously an unnatural pattern based on the flawed norms of the film industry. (Which btw, is one of the industries where women have it good, just imagine other sectors of work, where they are less welcomed.)
No wonder you think feminists are all zealots, you rationalize a counter argument no matter how reasonable the objection is, which is the very core of having a cognitive bias.
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OhforfSake
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posted March 12, 2018 09:00 PM |
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I don't want to touch the actual topic, but e.g. in the video game, counter strike, there are way fewer women than men which is also reflected in every top tier team only consisting of men.
So it does make sense to me if only 1% of applicants are women, that 1% is reflected throughout the profession.
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Salamandre
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posted March 12, 2018 09:09 PM |
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Well, no, you construct all your intellectual palace on what you think as solid bases, but they have no substance in my view. A movie or an artwork is NOT about talking, but transcending a moment, an action, some historical event, a love story, a drama etc. Its about representing it as something extraordinary, unique and beautiful, therefore deliver a teaching through living that experience. For simple talking you have all those dumb reality TV shows, enough of them. A movie is an artwork.
So if you take what I enumerated one by one, females are not optimally fit to play some of those, while as good as men to play the others.
A good part of movies are about action, about some hero killing around, being cruel, brave, strong, armed, fast and furious. Is that how we represent or WANT to represent a female? I don't think so. Men are not attacked by females because they can be strong, kill fast and are brave in front of dangers, while females ARE attracted by such characteristics when judging men.
Then lets talk about historical events, as they also make good material for tons of movies. Are there many historical female figures, compared to men? No.
How about drama and love stories, are females fit to play those? Absolutely and they do it great, so why in your graphics there is not a single movie like Casablanca, Pretty woman, Gone with the Wind and so many others, which had tons of rewards while more than half of screen-time was taken by a female. Talking about biased graphics, as much as yourself, huh? Yet those movies SHOW how to make successful movies with a perfect parity, isn't it?
Is funny how you brag about being so liberalist and globalist, yet when it comes to certain things, you are stuck in some marxist bubble where you want to impose your principles by force, instead of letting the free market flow them naturally.
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Zenofex
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posted March 12, 2018 09:26 PM |
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Quote:
I'm not suggesting all jobs must be equally interesting to both genders by default but norms still play a key factor in determining your tendencies, obviously more than biology.
That might apply to some backwater country which has ridiculous laws about the gender "roles in society" but seriously, that's not how it works on this side of the Bosporus, artu. Women can apply for whatever jobs they want and they do exactly that. In IT for example some 70-80% of the technicians, engineers, technical designers and such are men and the vast majority of them wouldn't mind at all to see more female colleagues around them but women just don't apply for such jobs - they go for banking, HR, journalism, graphical design and such. I've led maybe 20 job interviews throughput the last few years and only 3 or 4 of them were with girls or women who wanted to work or already worked as engineers. And while my impression is that women fare just as well as men in the IT field, if most of them don't like it for their profession, why exactly should anyone push for such "equality"?
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artu
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posted March 12, 2018 09:35 PM |
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Your first argument, that a movie is not about talking is literally non-sense, a movie is not about talking but dimensional characters are presented to us mostly through their dialogue, not jumping around.
The second one, claiming the list is cherry-picking is flat-out wrong also. It is 25 movies that won the best picture award, it's chronogical, had it went back further to include Casablanca or Gone with the Wind, I doubt the results would be different, considering their times, it could even get worse. As I already said, it has films like the English Patient, (partially love story) Shakespeare in Love, (love story) Million Dollar Baby (female lead), Titanic (love story), Silence of the Lambs (female lead) which have no historical or circumstancial excuse. So it is obviously you who have the bias, not the list because this level of non-sense is not possible without one.
I fail to see, what any of this has to do with Marxism or any class conflict either, maybe calling everything that dont fit your blinders-on perspective Marxism, is a habit you took from the alt-right. In either case, women go to movies as much as men and I hardly imagine they will stop paying if female characters are handled with more depth. So don't worry, the free market is safe.
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artu
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posted March 12, 2018 09:43 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Quote:
I'm not suggesting all jobs must be equally interesting to both genders by default but norms still play a key factor in determining your tendencies, obviously more than biology.
That might apply to some backwater country which has ridiculous laws about the gender "roles in society" but seriously, that's not how it works on this side of the Bosporus, artu. Women can apply for whatever jobs they want and they do exactly that. In IT for example some 70-80% of the technicians, engineers, technical designers and such are men and the vast majority of them wouldn't mind at all to see more female colleagues around them but women just don't apply for such jobs - they go for banking, HR, journalism, graphical design and such. I've led maybe 20 job interviews throughput the last few years and only 3 or 4 of them were with girls or women who wanted to work or already worked as engineers. And while my impression is that women fare just as well as men in the IT field, if most of them don't like it for their profession, why exactly should anyone push for such "equality"?
I am not suggesting to push for such equality, when it comes to things like IT or engineering, it is reasonable to assume less women are interested but not all professions are like that (I'm not sure about conducting for instance.) There are jobs that naturally have more male or female applicants, ones that are in a gray area of social norms and ones that are now completely normative for both (such as singing or cooking). This is very much so in developed countries also, although not to the same degree, (not all Europe is same either, Nordics are better than the Balkans in this regard, etc), there are even documanteries about it.
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Zenofex
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posted March 12, 2018 09:57 PM |
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Well that's the problem, there is no real "better" or "worse" here as long as there are no obstacles before someone when he or she chooses his or her profession. You're not picked for the job because you have tits - that's discrimination. You're not picked for the job because you never applied for it - that's free choice. Whether it's because you've been told since the age of 4 that there are these jobs for boys and those jobs for girls is another matter but if nobody is stopping to apply for a job or mistreating you after you start because of your gender, then the correct system is already in place.
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Stevie
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posted March 12, 2018 10:09 PM |
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