|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted October 14, 2008 01:18 PM |
|
|
I think that it's more of a joke.
You know, some people find fun in designing virusses for the heck of it that will bring up some strange message onto your screen.
Others try to create something by advertising conspiracy theories. People love them, just ask Mr. Brown. 
|
|
TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 01:22 PM |
|
|
Why does it matter if the pictures are edited anyway, if the moon landing was real? 
____________
John says to live above hell.
|
|
Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 01:23 PM |
|
|
It matters that they hided something from what they saw there, maybe aliens 
____________
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 01:32 PM |
|
|
I want you to think about this Doomforge, long and hard. There are countries and people out there that would like America to have egg on its face at any cost. You think them above putting out edited 'original' photos/videos? I am not saying that is what happened, but you have to consider all posibilities.
They could very well be the originals, and fake. However, the burden of proof is on the person saying they are. Even if they are original and there are some problems with them, is it more likely that there is an explination..or that a place with near unlimited resources messed up THAT bad when trying to perpetuate a hoax?
____________
Message received.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 01:44 PM |
|
Edited by TheDeath at 13:51, 14 Oct 2008.
|
Quote:
However, the burden of proof is on the person saying they are.
And the burden of proof is also on NASA showing that they are not fake and that they are true pictures. After all, it's them who showed us the pictures in the first place
Regarding the originals vs fakes. What do you mean by "original"? From the NASA pictures? How do you know they didn't edit them nowadays? Not to mention, there are some old books like Doom said, which have the same pictures. I'm talking mainly about the one with the "crosshair" at the foot, while the camera was at the chest. Not all of the conspiracy claims might be true, but this one was really interesting. It's hard to disprove it.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 02:34 PM |
|
|
No, I think you are wrong.
NASA already proved it: the whole world has believed the moon landing, therefore it was accepted at the time.
It's like someone died violently in 1969 - police made an investigation and came to the conclusion, no crime.
30 years later some students take a look at the crime scene pictures and find something they cannot explain. It's a long way from finding something you cannot explain to having a proof that a crime happened that was covered up.
In other words, you CAN ask questions about the pictures, but the CONCLUSIONS from it have to be proven.
In this case it goes like this:
There is no way the crosses can disappear behind objects on the pictures (is that so?). ERGO the pictures are a fake. ERGO the moon landing is a fake.
The first thing is a CLAIM. The second thing is another CLAIM. And the 3rd is yet another CLAIM. But there is no proof for EITHER of those claims.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 02:40 PM |
|
|
TA: just for the sake of a debate 
Mytical: Nah, nobody cared for imaginary "weapons of mass destruction", so why would anybody care for something old and outdated when they got a brand new controversial hoax at hand?
Seems nobody cares for US image tho, even the Russians. ;E
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 02:43 PM |
|
|
Quote:
NASA already proved it: the whole world has believed the moon landing, therefore it was accepted at the time.
Is that what you call proof? I can say "I just saw the Boogeyman" and show you a picture with him in my closet, and then are YOU supposed to prove it's FAKE?
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 02:46 PM |
|
|
|
That's how it works, the majority of people takes everything the media tell them as a given.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 02:58 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
NASA already proved it: the whole world has believed the moon landing, therefore it was accepted at the time.
Is that what you call proof? I can say "I just saw the Boogeyman" and show you a picture with him in my closet, and then are YOU supposed to prove it's FAKE?
Yes. They proved it, by bringing stuff, making pictures, providing a live feed when the event happened and making everything open to examination. Things were examined and accepted. Therefore the case of proving things was closed. Once something has been accepted as HISTORY you don't need to prove it again, just because someone doesn't like it or finds something he personally finds strange.
If you want to reopen it, claims are not enough. It's as simple as that.
And you would be well advised not to compare the people and the media situation of the end 60s with today. The concept may be unknown to you but THEN was the time when people demonstrated DAILY against their government and the wars they fought in the name of the people, the time shortly after which something called WATERGATE was uncovered, the time when people basically took NOTHING the government fed them with at face value, the time when the media were still operating under different rules: it was the media who uncovered Watergate, you should know that.
If there HAD BEEN a fake you can bet that the media would have been the first who'd try to uncover it.
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 03:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Yes. They proved it, by bringing stuff, making pictures, providing a live feed when the event happened and making everything open to examination. Things were examined and accepted.
By who? By NASA?
Quote:
If there HAD BEEN a fake you can bet that the media would have been the first who'd try to uncover it.
Unless they haven't been given proper information that is.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 03:13 PM |
|
|
They didn't give them "the proper information" about the Pentagon Papers either.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 03:15 PM |
|
|
@JJ: So if I make some kind of new hallucination technology and I'll show the world some Pink Unicorns and they'll believe me (let's say it's very believable) - then that means it was true? Those that will try later to discover the truth and call those Unicorns a hoax will have absolutely no arguments whatsoever, since the whole world BELIEVED in that hoax at some point and it has been accepted as HISTORY?
____________
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 03:22 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Why does it matter if the pictures are edited anyway, if the moon landing was real?
What? It has been accepted that the moonlanding was real? You guys are confusing me . I thought it was a CONSPIRACYYYY!! No seriously though do we still need to prove that the moonlanding was real or do we still have conspiracynists?
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 03:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
@JJ: So if I make some kind of new hallucination technology and I'll show the world some Pink Unicorns and they'll believe me (let's say it's very believable) - then that means it was true? Those that will try later to discover the truth and call those Unicorns a hoax will have absolutely no arguments whatsoever, since the whole world BELIEVED in that hoax at some point and it has been accepted as HISTORY?
No. It means that it's not enough to CLAIM there was some hallucination technology at work that made the whole world believe - after all, anyone can claim that anytime. You need EVIDENCE.
Moreover, you cannot go ahead, formulate a theory, find something that may or may not be "odd" and take this as evidence FOR YOUR THEORY.
So if world history includes the visit of pink unicorns, and you have the theory that this is due only to some hallucination technology, finding anything out of the ordinary in the pictures of them is no proof for your theory - it may have any number of reasons.
You might start with some predictions: IF it was due to a hallucination all texts describing the phenomenon may use the same phrasing. If that was indeed the case you'd have found serious evidence.
However, commenting a picture of the moonrover: the rover doesn't leave a trail - ergo, a crane has heaved it into place, is complete nonsensical: No one would ever predict, well, if they faked the pictures, they won't have rolled the rover through the studio and into place, no, a crane will have heaved it into place, so it doesn't leave any trails and present everyone a puzzle.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 03:45 PM |
|
|
@JJ
Quote:
The first thing is a CLAIM. The second thing is another CLAIM. And the 3rd is yet another CLAIM. But there is no proof for EITHER of those claims.
While I of course agree with just about everything you've said (and I can't believe such a ridiculous topic has gone on for 7 pages), I would like to point out that "the 3rd" isn't even a claim. It's a bad logical deduction. Even if you accept the claim that the pictures are fake, that doesn't necessarily mean that the moon landing was a fake. One does not conclusively lead to the other.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 04:33 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 16:35, 14 Oct 2008.
|
So let me see if I understand. You go (doomforge, thedeath, whoever) go to Disneyland and take pictures. I grab those pictures, raise some questions (and then pile on those questions), I don't have to prove you didn't go to Disneyland. Instead you have to prove you did?
Now say that nobody you know went with you, and you didn't keep the ticket. How would you prove you ever visitd Disneyland? Assuming of course I refuse to believe the pictures.
Edit : Again, I hardly believe even half what the government tells me. I did not believe the WMD claims, I think there is several things the governement are not telling us or hiding from us.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 04:37 PM |
|
|
I have a better question: I go and take a picture of the Boogeyman (fake, ofc) and show it to you. How would yoo prove that it's a FAKE? Especially if a lot of people at first agreed that indeed I took a picture of the Boogeyman? (and only later arose suspicions)
____________
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 04:38 PM |
|
|
I think people here have no idea what PROOF is about, or more precisely, what they expect from science but do not apply it here. Proving something is very difficult. If someone doubts a certain thing, especially pictures, it lowers their value considerably, especially if he says certain things like "conspiracy" which automatically imply that they have been faked, and of course if no one ever questions authority, isn't that called religion?
Or (addressing to atheists) should we take the Bible for granted until we PROVE that it is FAKE? (which is impossible, that's like asking to prove God does NOT exist)
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 14, 2008 05:02 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I have a better question: I go and take a picture of the Boogeyman (fake, ofc) and show it to you. How would yoo prove that it's a FAKE? Especially if a lot of people at first agreed that indeed I took a picture of the Boogeyman? (and only later arose suspicions)
I didn't need to prove it's a fake. In order for me or the world to accept it, YOU are the one who has to prove that the pictures are no fake.
Now before you start hitting on me, the moon thing is a completely different thing than that.
To compare this, the situation would have to be that the whole world would know BEFOREHAND what you planned and that you documented your progress and how you did it and so on. This would in effect be your proof then. The idea would be that everyone would be able to do it as well after you.
|
|
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
