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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 19, 2009 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
Israel... the most selfish country in the world.
They only think about themself and most of their own people act like retards.
Ironically this comes from you who studies about Buddhism. Doesn't it support tolerance?
In addition, be careful. You're making generalization.
"Most of their own people act like retards".
Have you ever seen ANY Israeli in RL? Have you checked most of the people in Israel and saw that they act like retards?
Geny, anti, TNT and I are the closest Israelis to you, and I don't think that you can say that we act like retards.
So please, stick to your own standards. Buddhism might have a good impact on you.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 19, 2009 09:41 PM |
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Oh, so if Israel knew that its attack would result in 1300+ Israeli deaths, would it still do it?
If that was the case then what would be the point of the whole attack? The main objective of the operation was to defend the Israeli citizens, because while a Palestinian life is not worth less than an Israeli, the first task of an Israeli government (just like any other government in the world) is to protect it's own citizens. I don't think that you can find something wrong or inhumane with that.
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But, that would be easier solved with a few nukes (apart from the fact that we have to take the rest of the world into account though) -- I mean, 0 Israeli deaths, 0 Soldier deaths, etc etc...
True, but caring for Palestinian civilians is exactly why we didn't go to such extremes, because we knew there was a way to gain our objectives with less casualties on their side and 'tolerable' casualty on ours.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 19, 2009 10:04 PM |
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@Lexxan. I can't accept and will never allow justification of this indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force by the Israeli army.
GENEVA: The top U.N. human rights body on Monday condemned Israel's military offensive in Gaza and resolved to send a fact-finding mission to investigate Israeli abuses against Palestinians.
The U.N. Human Rights Council's 47 members voted 33 in favor and 1 against a resolution saying the Israeli offensive has "resulted in massive violations of human rights of the Palestinian people and systematic destruction of the Palestinian infrastructure."
Thirteen mostly European countries abstained, citing the one-sided wording of the text. Canada was the only country to oppose the resolution outright.
@Geny. How far do you think that a government can go in order to protect it's citizens?
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 19, 2009 10:12 PM |
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That's a tough question that doesn't have a simple answer. There is, however, another tough question that rivals it: how restrained can a government be when its citizens are under attack?
There is no simple answer to those question, no solid rules, no clear lines. Israel was trying to find the optimal answer. May be there's a better one, may be not. What ever the case may be, I don't think any of us can claim they know the answer.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted January 19, 2009 10:38 PM |
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Quote:
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It would still have been a horrific and tragic war that cost millions upon millions their lives, utterly shattered several nations, and placed half of Europe under the benevolent rule of the Soviet Union for almost half a century while simultaneously ravaging many of the free nations of Europe and Asia. Furthermore, it is one that most likely could have been avoided as well, making the resulting events even worse.
World War Two is a tragedy of unimaginable proportions even BEFORE the Holocaust is factored into it.
I dislike the way you use "free-nations", but thats another matter.
A war is a dam war, the only thing that makes WW2 more importent and worse was the holocoust and imperialisme whom follows similar strings.
If Hitler and Nippon had won 2nd World War in our timeline, i can guess what would have happened next. They would have clashed in the end of 2nd world war or war world 3.
Hmmm yeah free doesn't really have any place there, I must have just put that in because of what I just typed. "Nations" would be more accurate as countries like China and Japan weren't exactly free.
A war is not a war, that's silly. So the War of Jenkin's Ear is the same thing as World War Two? Such broad generalizations are almost always incorrect. World War Two is perhaps the most important of any recent war because of its lasting impact on Europe, the Jewish population, the Middle East and Asia, and basically the entire globe. To dismiss it as being unimportant or the same besides the Holocaust is extremely foolish.
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 19, 2009 10:43 PM |
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Lexxan:
I understand why people are patriotic, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I can kind of understand fighting for Israelis, but not for Israel. There's a difference. But I still don't approve of the idea of patriotism.
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However, you can simply cannot expect people to get along just as it is (if it was the case, we wouldn't überhapt need the OSM at all!).
How many people has the OSM killed? How much economic damage has it wrought?
Exactly. I have nothing against people arguing, but when they turn to their knives, guns, tanks, and bombs - there, I object.
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Eccentric Opinion
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted January 19, 2009 11:00 PM |
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I don't know, if we were all out working instead of posting on OSM that's probably a significant economic boost. 
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 20, 2009 12:06 AM |
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A war is not a war, that's silly. So the War of Jenkin's Ear is the same thing as World War Two? Such broad generalizations are almost always incorrect. World War Two is perhaps the most important of any recent war because of its lasting impact on Europe, the Jewish population, the Middle East and Asia, and basically the entire globe. To dismiss it as being unimportant or the same besides the Holocaust is extremely foolish.
It's also the first time a nuke has been used
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I understand why people are patriotic, but it just doesn't make sense to me.
No one said you can understand it (yes I don't like the idea of patriotism but at least I understand it). I don't even expect someone like you to understand it (I base this on our OSM convos, since you think that humans are 100% selfish, and I'm sure you'll come with emotional benefits here as well, and that all we do we must expect something in return --> there is no love in your system, just cooperation or offense or hate). Ever wondered that, instead of calling them psychos or weirdos, maybe it's you who should change/expand your views or ideology a bit? 
Also by the way, to not like something (or hate it), you must understand it properly first...
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How many people has the OSM killed? How much economic damage has it wrought?
Exactly. I have nothing against people arguing, but when they turn to their knives, guns, tanks, and bombs - there, I object.
If you don't want to be blamed, best solution sit in your bed all day. Right?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted January 20, 2009 12:12 AM |
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As far as I am concerned, the Israelians are just defending themselves. But the question is: when does "a defence" become "an attack"?
Also, I think the reason why Hamas attacked Israel in the first place is because of "jew hatred". Jew hatred has always been a part of the history. Not only since 1935 and Adolf Hitlers "adventure".
Jew hatred and jew persecution was even a part of the Bible history! I really don't know what to believe. It seems unlikely that any peace will be founded.
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2009 12:46 AM |
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TheDeath:
I suppose emotional benefits () are the best way to explain it, I guess. Some people are weird like that.
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Eccentric Opinion
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted January 20, 2009 12:51 AM |
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@ TheDeath- Yes, that would certainly fall under the category of "lasting impacts".
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They can take my swamp, they can take my town, but they will never take my FREEDOM!
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 20, 2009 09:41 AM |
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Ugh, not again :'(
@ Minnion: Quote:
@Lexxan. I can't accept and will never allow justification of this indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force by the Israeli army
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You don't get the point. The Israeli ARMY was PROVOQUED BY HAMAS. Hamas is the reason why these 1300 people died, they made Israel attack them. Ypu are acting like a child, blinded by ideology. I won't say that you aren't allowed to think and post like that, but doing so is subjective and therefore INCORRECT. You see only one side as the culprit, (the side portrayed as the culprits by the media) whereas BOTH (!) Sides are guilty, each as much as the others. Stop thinking the Palestines are victims and angels; they certainly ARE NOT!
Quote:
GENEVA: The top U.N. human rights body on Monday condemned Israel's military offensive in Gaza and resolved to send a fact-finding mission to investigate Israeli abuses against Palestinians.
The U.N. Human Rights Council's 47 members voted 33 in favor and 1 against a resolution saying the Israeli offensive has "resulted in massive violations of human rights of the Palestinian people and systematic destruction of the Palestinian infrastructure."
Thirteen mostly European countries abstained, citing the one-sided wording of the text. Canada was the only country to oppose the resolution outright.
I will never say that I'm rooting or supporting Israel. I'm do not like their methods, I do not sympathise for them. However, why I'm taking their side in this arguement is because they had EVERY right to invade Gaza. If a neighbouring country would fire missiles to your backgarden, killing/seriously injuring family members, would you let that go unpunished?
Regardless, I still think Israel had gone too far, on killing citizens, but as Geny said, I assume the number has been kept to a minimum (which is still to large imo, I agree with you about that)
@ Vassilevsky: Quote:
I understand why people are patriotic, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I can kind of understand fighting for Israelis, but not for Israel. There's a difference. But I still don't approve of the idea of patriotism.
I actually agree, I don't approve either, but I (am trying to) understand. In essence, it's the same as fighting a war for an ideology (communism being a good example), or a religion (Islam/Christianity are good examples). it's pointless and doesn't make much sense.
Quote:
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However, you can simply cannot expect people to get along just as it is (if it was the case, we wouldn't überhapt need the OSM at all!).
How many people has the OSM killed? How much economic damage has it wrought?
Exactly. I have nothing against people arguing, but when they turn to their knives, guns, tanks, and bombs - there, I object.
You misunderstood me. If people got along, we wouldn't need a discussion Forum; everyone would simply get along and share a similar opinion. However, this is not the case, and I, just like you, HATE it, when emotions, bias and Ignorance stimulate people to post instead of Wisdom, Insight and objectivity. If the Former occurs, like shown by Minnion and Xerox here mainly, you get OSM battles, I hate to see, but love to participate in ^^ ()
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2009 02:52 PM |
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Lexxan:
I agree entirely with your comments regarding the current situation. 
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it's the same as fighting a war for an ideology (communism being a good example), or a religion (Islam/Christianity are good examples).
No, it's even worse than that. You can choose your ideology but you can't choose where you're born. As for a religion, at least religious zealots believe that if they fight for it, they'll go to heaven, so it makes some sense, even though I don't agree with them. But nationalism... what's it for, other than a tool for dictators and populists? 
Quote:
However, this is not the case, and I, just like you, HATE it, when emotions, bias and Ignorance stimulate people to post instead of Wisdom, Insight and objectivity.
One person's wisdom, insight, and objectivity are another person's emotions, bias, and ignorance.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 20, 2009 03:08 PM |
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That's a tough question that doesn't have a simple answer. There is, however, another tough question that rivals it: how restrained can a government be when its citizens are under attack?
There is no simple answer to those question, no solid rules, no clear lines. Israel was trying to find the optimal answer. May be there's a better one, may be not. What ever the case may be, I don't think any of us can claim they know the answer.
Of course. And that is a good one. If they would be too restrained, the people would overthrow them, naturally. Democracy works best when people are dissatisfied.
You seem like a very sensible guy. Lets continue this as to what methods you think that an army can use in a conflict. And I guess that I must say that I am not a Hamas supporter, I think Lexxan is accusing me of that. Well no I am not. I just consider Israel a western nation, and hence I feel it has obligations. Of course that doesn't mean that Hamas can do whatever they want. No. But they have not used such force as Israel.
The Israeli military are accused of:
• Using powerful shells in civilian areas which the army knew would cause large numbers of innocent casualties;
• Using banned weapons such as phosphorus bombs;
• Holding Palestinian families as human shields;
• Attacking medical facilities, including the killing of 12 ambulance men in marked vehicles;
• Killing large numbers of police who had no military role.
Which ones of those you approve?
(btw, you won't get charged with those because US will block any resolutions. I know no action against Israel will be done, but I just am here interested about which of you approves which. Some say that war sees no rules etc.)
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 20, 2009 03:12 PM |
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I hope Obama does something about Israel and will be better then Bush.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted January 20, 2009 03:16 PM |
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I hope Obama does something about Israel and will be better then Bush.
Like what?
Point them with finger and say "you have been bad and should deserve a good spanking!"?
What's there to do about it?
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted January 20, 2009 03:28 PM |
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I hope Obama does something about Israel and will be better then Bush.
what excally are you trying to acompleash? provocaition of israely memmbers,generalising,you insulted me atleast 4 times in this topic. what actions do you think obama will use against israel? Don't make me leught.
please think of before you post. angelito gave you a warning once,didnt he? this is going overboard.
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types in obscure english
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lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 20, 2009 03:40 PM |
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. And I guess that I must say that I am not a Hamas supporter, I think Lexxan is accusing me of that.
First off I am not accusing you of anything, let alone be a Hamas supporter. there is a difference between being a Hamas supporter and an Israel disapprover. (I'm not a supporter of Israel either, though you might think differently (not saying you do tho))
Regardless, you do sometimes seem to forget that both sides make unforgivable "mistakes".
Your list is pretty accurate of these "mistakes", and I will never support nor deny it's contents. As far as I am concerned, the accusations are correct, and Israel is trialed. Eventhough they had to righ tto invade, they NEVER had the right to break the Human Rights Code.
However, in my very first post I wrote that Hamas and the Government of Israel are eachother's equals: Equal in ideas (of the promissed land), equal in goals, in ruthlessness, even in methods. You simply cannot accuse one side of something, without looking like a Hamas Sympathist (which I doubt you are). So accusing? No. Looking like one? Yes.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 20, 2009 03:41 PM |
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I hope Obama does something about Israel and will be better then Bush.
You'd better not expect too much from Obama. The only thing that comes from that is dissapointment. Obama isn't superman. He will NOT be able to fix this, and most other world leaders can't. Hope is always permitted... but don't let it be a Fool's Hope.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted January 20, 2009 03:49 PM |
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As far as I am concerned, the Israelians are just defending themselves.
AGAINST WHAT???????????????????????????
Anybody here actually got a clue on the faction splits in Palestine?
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