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Geny
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posted December 29, 2008 11:20 PM |
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@Joonas
That's just it - Israel just killed terrorists with surgical precision, but what's a couple of dead terrorists to a huge organisation? There are no irreplaceable people, so those strikes barely did something. Now it's different. The Palestinians haven't seen an attack of this scale in many years. However, if you think that we're carpet bombing the Gaza Strip and leveling it to the ground, you're wrong. The attacks are still pretty much precise, just much more destructive.
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mvassilev
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posted December 29, 2008 11:23 PM |
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Geny
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posted December 29, 2008 11:25 PM |
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Believe or not, but removing HAMAS from power isn't even an objective in this operation. We have no illusions about that, HAMAS is too big and strong now to be wiped out that easily. What we want is to weaken it and most importantly to make it submit to our terms and not the other way around.
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JoonasTo
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posted December 29, 2008 11:26 PM |
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I know. Carper bombing would have called immeadiate retaliation by the arabs, an immediate trade embargo by the UN and probably even US would have turned it's back on you.
And that destruction leads to a hell lot more civilian deaths. Like I said earlier, the air strikes will do only minimal good. The propaganda that Hamas gets for it's use will make their recruitement around two or three times larger than if no air strikes.
I get it that Israel is trying to deplete their resources with the bombings and the embargo but it is pretty doubtful if you're going to succeed.
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Geny
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posted December 29, 2008 11:29 PM |
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Like I said in the previous post, the objective here, isn't to wipe them out completely, but to cause them enough damage so they would understand that bombing our citizens will have such severe consequences, that they'll lose more than they'll gain. At least that's what everyone here is thinking, because as far as I know no official objectives have been released.
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JoonasTo
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posted December 29, 2008 11:30 PM |
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Isn't that what I said in the post above? 
Either you are not reading what I say or drunk. Since it's you boobins are probably the cause. 
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kipshasz
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posted December 29, 2008 11:32 PM |
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Quote:
You've been drinking too much Kips. 
The logical explanation is the same as to "Why did the americans ship weapons to england in WW1 in a passenger ship?". Propaganda. People don't want war naturally believe it or not. They need to feel that there's something to wage war for. Like dead civilians. Who wouldn't think those evil jews/germans who kill innocent civilians need to be punished?
Thanks for noticing that.
But that kind of propaganda so messes up peoples brain that they don't even realise that war isn't going to bring back the dead. But thats what propaganda is all about. To brainwash people.
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Geny
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posted December 29, 2008 11:34 PM |
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lol, no I'm not drunk, but I am tired. This discussion is the only thing that's keeping from going to bed... for now.
I was referring to your last line where you doubted that we could deplete their resources. We don't need to deplete all of it, just enough to make them sit down and talk.
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JoonasTo
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posted December 29, 2008 11:35 PM |
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Geny
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posted December 29, 2008 11:36 PM |
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With how the things are developing so far, it's just a matter of time.
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mvassilev
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posted December 29, 2008 11:55 PM |
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Geny:
I doubt bombing them will do much. I think a land invasion and knocking them out of power would be the best course of action. Hamas will never negotiate. Their demands are just too much.
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antipaladin
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posted December 30, 2008 02:08 AM |
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@Kipsz: What do you do to theese 'innocent' childern and old people,who sheild the terrorists,with themselfs?
how do you punish a 15 year old who threws a rock at a israely solider and couses him injurys?
The massacres of gaza..uhm does the UN reports of the 4 stapped people this morning in ashkelon,where an arab constructer a citzen of israel who agrees with the politics in gaza decideds to take metters in hes own hands and took hes knife and stabbed 4 israely innocent people?
how about the woman killed tonight? from a bombing from gaza in ashdod? what was she guilty for? or was she too,guilty for being israel? jewish?
@Angelito,i agree that hamas is worser then Fatah,but we are trying to weaken hamas, we supported Fatah in the best and whatever is supporting Hamas,besides Iran and Hizbollah (who threatens to counter another front in the north) is probbly Weapons trade.An intense action needed to be taken years ago. because shderot is suffring,and i didnt see no CNN report on that...
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mvassilev
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posted December 30, 2008 02:39 AM |
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Note that this article does not necessarily reflect my views.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050706.html
Trying to 'teach Hamas a lesson' is fundamentally wrong
By Tom Segev
Tags: israel, israel news, gaza
Channel 1 television broadcast an interesting mix on Saturday morning: Its correspondents reported from Sderot and Ashkelon, but the pictures on the screen were from the Gaza Strip. Thus the broadcast, albeit unintentionally, sent the right message: A child in Sderot is the same as a child in Gaza, and anyone who harms either is evil.
But the assault on Gaza does not first and foremost demand moral condemnation - it demands a few historical reminders. Both the justification given for it and the chosen targets are a replay of the same basic assumptions that have proven wrong time after time. Yet Israel still pulls them out of its hat again and again, in one war after another.
Israel is striking at the Palestinians to "teach them a lesson." That is a basic assumption that has accompanied the Zionist enterprise since its inception: We are the representatives of progress and enlightenment, sophisticated rationality and morality, while the Arabs are a primitive, violent rabble, ignorant children who must be educated and taught wisdom - via, of course, the carrot-and-stick method, just as the drover does with his donkey. The bombing of Gaza is also supposed to "liquidate the Hamas regime," in line with another assumption that has accompanied the Zionist movement since its inception: that it is possible to impose a "moderate" leadership on the Palestinians, one that will abandon their national aspirations.
As a corollary, Israel has also always believed that causing suffering to Palestinian civilians would make them rebel against their national leaders. This assumption has proven wrong over and over.
All of Israel's wars have been based on yet another assumption that has been with us from the start: that we are only defending ourselves. "Half a million Israelis are under fire," screamed the banner headline of Sunday's Yedioth Ahronoth - just as if the Gaza Strip had not been subjected to a lengthy siege that destroyed an entire generation's chances of living lives worth living.
It is admittedly impossible to live with daily missile fire, even if virtually no place in the world today enjoys a situation of zero terror. But Hamas is not a terrorist organization holding Gaza residents hostage: It is a religious nationalist movement, and a majority of Gaza residents believe in its path. One can certainly attack it, and with Knesset elections in the offing, this attack might even produce some kind of cease-fire. But there is another historical truth worth recalling in this context: Since the dawn of the Zionist presence in the Land of Israel, no military operation has ever advanced dialogue with the Palestinians.
Most dangerous of all is the cliche that there is no one to talk to. That has never been true. There are even ways to talk with Hamas, and Israel has something to offer the organization. Ending the siege of Gaza and allowing freedom of movement between Gaza and the West Bank could rehabilitate life in the Strip.
At the same time, it is worth dusting off the old plans prepared after the Six-Day War, under which thousands of families were to be relocated from Gaza to the West Bank. Those plans were never implemented because the West Bank was slated to be used for Jewish settlement. And that was the most damaging working assumption of all.
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DagothGares
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posted December 30, 2008 02:44 AM |
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You know, I think it's the underlying nature of man to support the 'underdog', even if he's a jerk... (read reynaerd the fox, ifyou're french or dutch, you'll sympathise with the villain most of the time)
Of course, I express myself rather ligtly and don't want anyone to be offended. It's just war... There hardly is a right and wrong. Everyone does what he believes is right (except maybe, weapons salesmen, but forget those guys).
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antipaladin
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posted December 30, 2008 03:02 AM |
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They way he uses the word zionists when he is adrassing to israelites i get the picture he is either palastinen antisemite or orthdox Jew or Dos,They object to the country of israel,on the claime that its not messiah time yet,
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mvassilev
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posted December 30, 2008 03:11 AM |
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I don't know much about Haaretz, except what I just read on [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haaretz]Wikipedia. And, on one hand, it saysQuote:
In 2001, the pro-Israel media-monitoring and advocacy group CAMERA claimed that Haaretz fueled anti-Israel bias.
On the other hand,Quote:
A 2003 study in the The Harvard International Journal of Press/Politics found that Haaretz reporting was more favorable to Israelis than Palestinians, and more likely to report stories from the Israeli side.
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DagothGares
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posted December 30, 2008 03:18 AM |
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Maybe the author of the article thought: "middle east is middle east!"
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Salamandre
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posted December 30, 2008 07:40 AM |
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I don't see the option: put in jail Israeli assassins. Murdering 345 people because one rocket hit one jew is a nazi act. There is no more difference between Hamas and Israel generals.
English translation
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Azagal
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posted December 30, 2008 08:08 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 08:45, 30 Dec 2008.
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Quote:
With how the things are developing so far, it's just a matter of time (till we make them talk with us).
I think you are being pretty optimistic right there... the bombings just increase the hate against israel 10 times over (it doesn't matter that out of the 360~ dead 300 are hamas people and "only" (really perverted word here but no better way to describe it) 60~ civilian deaths.
What makes Israel think that by hitting them really hard they'll suddenly sit down and talk?
Israel has been invading gaza from time to time and Hamas has never even shown a tiny bit of cooperation has it? People there hate israel way too much to allow any government institution to make peace with Israel no?
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted December 30, 2008 08:11 AM |
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Quote:
I don't see the option: put in jail Israeli assassins. Murdering 345 people because one rocket hit one jew is a nazi act.
So if the Jews kill you say it's murder and throw them in jail. But if the Palestinians kill, you are quiet. Interesting.
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