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| Thread: Advanced Controls |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted January 22, 2009 02:47 PM |
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Advanced Controls
Hi, since I've played a lot of duels on Elvin's Duel Map, I found out how annoying sometimes can be your units to move how they wish when you attack, it makes a huge difference when there's a firewall near them (or something similar)
Take this scenario:
-HH---
-HH---
-XF---
--F---
--Z---
H - Hydras
F - Firewall
Z - Zombies (there's also a firewall on them now)
X - Zombie target (from where you attack the Hydras)
Now, when you attack, it will make a huge difference whether the zombies will move first diagonally or last. In the former case, they will avoid the Firewall, but in the latter they will stupidly enter one of Firewall's tiles.
So I thought that:
1) There should be a small shaded view for the path your creature will walk when you attack/move it (something similar when you see how the enemy creatures can move when you hover your cursor over them)
2) There should be the possibility to define a custom movement for your creatures (non-fliers only) if you don't agree with the displayed one from (1). So that even if the zombies are stupid and you know it (because of 1), you'll still be able to make them move 'smarter'. Also, this will increase usefulness of more things than avoiding firewalls, such as charging as much as possible with Paladins/Grim Raiders, hitting more enemies with Brisk Raiders, etc.
Even more, this will improve the movements of your creatures when using abilities like Harm Touch or Leap. This case is even worse than the attacking one, since you aren't able to even select from which tile to attack with the ability (probably because of the current system's limitation with using abilities with targets  you just target the enemy and that's it)
Feel free to comment, and if you have some other suggestions please share them.  (that's why I named the thread like this, possibly to include other ideas as well)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 22, 2009 09:24 PM |
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Yes, I had a similar experience, where for inexplicable reasons one of my stacks chose to commit suicide by walking through 3 tiles of firewall when there was a very clear path to the target not going through the firewall at all. It's a nuisance that you can't define the path you want to chose and downright sloppy that you can't even see WHICH path will be chosen for you, so you can at least choose another target in case of unfavorable choice.
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What will happen now?
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Tygore
Hired Hero
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posted January 23, 2009 11:18 AM |
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Maybe it would be a good idea to use the system that Kings Bounty: The Legend used to solve these problems: In this game, every unit has a certain number of action points (which is basically the equivalent for speed in HoMM) and you can move your unit step by step without finishing their action. You finish the units action with an attack, if it has at least one action point left.
There are two things that I particularly liked about that system:
1) You can even move your ranged units before attacking! I donīt know if it is a good idea to implement this for future HoMM-games but I think it is worth considering.
2) you can move your unit, then hit the "wait"-button and have them finsh their move later. Although I have to add that Kings Bounty uses the same initiative system like HoMM. I think you wouldnīt use that option too often with the Heroes 5 initiative system. But still, itīs an interesting option.
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crepus
Adventuring Hero
Nuclear Power Plant
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posted February 05, 2009 03:24 PM |
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Tygor's got an idea there!
Maybe one should add that normal creatures get a decrease in damage dealing for each square they move (as movement make them tired).
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Mater tua criceta fuit, et Pater tuo
redoluit bacarum sambucus.
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Malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 05, 2009 04:04 PM |
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I guess the solution is a something like "Trace" option in Combat menu, where you can mark unit movement.
It might seem similar yet it is different from KB since you don't use Action point characteristic.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 05, 2009 05:36 PM |
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I agree 110% when it comes to the abilities. Not being able to select the area you "attack" from with Harm and such can really be a pain.
With the other controls, this means firewall and firetrap would be less useful, and you could abuse the jousting and winddancer ability by getting the full bonus probably every time, and they're both top quality abilities as they are.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 05, 2009 05:42 PM |
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Well that's their specialty, to charge as much as possible. Maybe if the charging wouldn't be so powerful (like say, 1 defense per tile for Wind Dancer), it wouldn't be so much of a problem.
But at least to see which path your units will take is pretty important IMO.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted February 05, 2009 06:11 PM |
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Perhaps the Charging-problem could be solved by a system that ensures those ability are the more effective the more "in a line" the creatures walk. So, the higher the degree-amount of the angel is they walk, the less efffective is their ability...
I hope you understand what I mean, I wasn't realy able to express it properly in English, I fear...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 05, 2009 08:48 PM |
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I don't know how you'd solve the issues with Agility, but with jousting you could reduce the total 'distance' travelled by 2 squares every time you turn a corner, or even reduce it to a certain number no matter what it was before.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted February 06, 2009 12:49 AM |
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I agree there should be a room or place for basic manual player control when there is needed.
But if there was such a control wouldn't it made an BladeBarrier or Fire Wall useless
Quote:
There are two things that I particularly liked about that system:
1) You can even move your ranged units before attacking! I donīt know if it is a good idea to implement this for future HoMM-games but I think it is worth considering.
2) you can move your unit, then hit the "wait"-button and have them finsh their move later. Although I have to add that Kings Bounty uses the same initiative system like HoMM. I think you wouldnīt use that option too often with the Heroes 5 initiative system. But still, itīs an interesting option.
Tygore i would love to see this in action in HOMM gameplay.
As for advanced control as think of it reminds me Precise Magic thread of Ebbafan. Maybe give also an option how much damage strenght your unit should use to attack/defense from retaltion. Lets say you just want to steal retalation and you give 1% (min) Strenght(attack), the "unused" in attack Attack Stat is transformed to Defence (of course not in 1 : 1 ratio)or maybe one extra HP.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 06, 2009 01:03 AM |
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Quote:
But if there was such a control wouldn't it made an BladeBarrier or Fire Wall useless
Preventing creatures to go stupidly through a Fire Wall, yes, but what's with Blade Barrier? It won't affect it at all.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted February 06, 2009 01:13 AM |
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Quote:
but what's with Blade Barrier? It won't affect it at all.
yes of course you are right
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Tygore
Hired Hero
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posted February 06, 2009 08:28 AM |
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As for the charging problem:
In Kingīs Bounty they solved that pretty nicely: You only get the charging bonus for each square that you move in a straight line directly before the attack. So obstacles on the battlefield can be quite a hindrance if you want to get that bonus.
They also got another good idea: If your cavalry stands directly next to the unit you wish it to attack, it moves back a few squares and then charges it, thus gaining the charging bonus. Obviously, this only works if there is enough room for your unit to move.
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skortzy
Hired Hero
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posted February 06, 2009 10:35 AM |
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I tried to refine the King's Bounty system and came out with [url=http://www.coins.ro/mightandmagic/action-points-instead-of-speed/]this proposal[/url].
Basically, we have action points instead of speed, moving costs 1 or 1.41 points and attacking / casting spells / using special abilities costs half + 0.01 of the action points. In my opinion, this leads to a great deal of nice possibilities.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted February 06, 2009 08:09 PM |
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Another thing that should be fixed is: being able to choose your attack type, just as it was available in h4. If you want to melee with your shooter, you should be able to do so. It's more than annoying with assasins (they do less damage ranged) or cyclops (standing next to a goblin stack) and it limits your tactical possibilities with other troops as well. Or did I miss smth?
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted February 06, 2009 08:17 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 20:24, 06 Feb 2009.
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in b4 Ash! :P
Quote:
Another thing that should be fixed is: being able to choose your attack type, just as it was available in h4. If you want to melee with your shooter, you should be able to do so. It's more than annoying with assasins (they do less damage ranged) or cyclops (standing next to a goblin stack) and it limits your tactical possibilities with other troops as well. Or did I miss smth?
Ctrl
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 06, 2009 08:18 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 20:18, 06 Feb 2009.
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You can hold CTRL in H5 and the shooters will go in melee to attack ;P
EDIT: LOL Vlaad 
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted February 06, 2009 09:09 PM |
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good to know :-)
where can I find such hotkeys?
I'd also be interested in troops moving/separating without mouse (typing in numbers, no need of positioning artifacts/creatures to the exact slot, etc)...
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted February 06, 2009 11:55 PM |
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Ash: Ever played Fire Emblem? In the ones i have played they got someting that is a exelent solution to the problem.
I think i found someting relevant here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evtap5FEjGg
When you select where the create walks it depening on the path you moved the mouse. Or someting akin to it.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted February 09, 2009 12:18 PM |
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I hope it's not offtopic. Things that annoy me and should be fixed for next games (yea I know they wont):
This is a strategy game.
At least make it possible for the user to use a flat view (2d) on the battlescreen (possibly on the adventure map as well - classic view is a good step, but could be better). Some players might wanna concentrate on the battle. it's really annoying when sometimes it takes 15-30 seconds to target something properly.
The system that Asheara proposed (move tile by tile if possible and do the attack afterwards, maybe after move you can only do melee attack or smth) is a good start.
I want to be able to control my heroes with keyboard on the overland map. Sometimes keyboard is just much more efficient. I should be able to turn a grid on there, as well (if I really want to). It's really time consuming (and hard!) to move your hero exactly where you want to.
When moving to an object while being on the way (say visiting something off the road, picking up treasures) the pathfinding algorythm (that you get by targeting the object with your cursor) makes the wrong decision (suboptimal route) 95% of the time. Maybe it's hard to program it better tho. (What I'm talking about is: imagine a chessboard. My hero is on g4 and is trying to get to b6. There is an object on e7. What the pathfinder will do is f5, f6, e7 ...)
I want to be able to split stacks by typing in exact numbers fast and efficiently. Also there should be a button for splitting to 1-X (more often than not, you want to create a 1-sized group). There should be a swap creatures/artifacts/warmachines button as well. Preferably hotkeyed aswell.
That's all for now. Sure there's more but I'm out of time and cant think anything more right now.
Also consider that these are NOT minor annoyances if you're trying to play the game well (or fast, at least, esp in multi).
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.
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