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| Thread: Posting limits |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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baklava
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posted January 28, 2009 11:02 AM |
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Because the OSM is NOT only about 2 persons!
AMEN
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pandora
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posted January 28, 2009 12:41 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 12:47, 28 Jan 2009.
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It's true that I complain about the OSM - quite often I don't enjoy what I read there. I find there is a lot of disrespect for each other, a lot of intolerance and in some cases just too many people who open their mouths about sensitive subjects without really having their facts straight.
I also do not like that there are members who seem to feel that the OSM is a place for debate, debate, and debate only. I do not enjoy reading it everywhere and always, especially when its too often at the cost of the thread's original subject.
In example, say that a member has lost their dog and makes a thread to talk about it and get some support, or maybe try to see how other people have dealt with it. It probably wouldn't take too long before someone picked the word "lost" out of the thread title and decided to post that it depends on what you mean by lost - as lost means that if its lost it can be found. Then another would have to counter that loss means absence, and something that has been lost is absent from you forever. Then of course there would be a few pages of fighting over what lost means, until someone posts that the only true loss is death - from there the thread topic is now about death, the afterlife and each post will have to contain some mention of the fact that anyone who doesn't agree with the member posting knows absolutely nothing.
I'm so sick of that. I have no problem with people debating and discussing - its interesting (when its real) and it keeps the forum lively - but it should not just erupt in threads where it was never wanted. In example MightyMage's "what is love" thread, I liked it for what it was - I'm not so fond of what it now is.
TheDeath has posted that he enjoys being "the devil's advocate" which I think is often essential in a debate where most are arguing on the same point and the topic is waning. I do not think it's needed in every thread though - I don't see any reason why one must always seek out some way to aggravate and provoke others into posting. I don't feel its right to post hurtful and negative comments about people and then add a  to make it all better.
I really don't like that I can't participate there as a member anymore. Already I'm accused of favouring people in there, and I can't imagine why - so far a few of the people I'm said to favour are people who I have never sided with in an argument, and actually cannot find any common ground with - so I don't know where it comes from, but I do know that if I were to post there any time I agreed with someone that person would automatically be seen as someone I "favour". Not to mention that it's pretty much impossible to go there without Moderating anyways, because the CoC is broken so often there its ridiculous.
Which reminds me, about QP's, so many of you ignore my requests that you use the word censor properly - and I'm just tired of having to be a babysitter. So to those of you who often cheat the censor by typing like th*s, or those of you who don't care to check if you let one 'slip' - rather than chase you down to edit over and over again, I just won't consider you anymore for a QP to even it out. If you use the cuss words in an insulting manner, or use the F word, I will still be penalizing you.
As for the initial topic, if anyone is still reading (  ) I think that a posting limit would really damage the osm, plus how frustrating would it be to have people lay in waiting until you had reached your limit, only to slam your opinions once they know you cannot reply (yes, of course that's what they would do ) Not to mention that we'd have single posts edited so ofetn in a day that it would take 20 minutes to scroll from top to bottom
I really just think that there needs to be some more respect there for everyone. The osm is a very negative forum - and it shouldn't have to be. Nobody should fear posting there because they don't want to either be attacked for the way that they think , or completely ignored because a handful of others are busy at their own wars again.
@Mvass - I complain about the OSM because with quite a few of the members we have posting actively now, I know it can be better. I complain because I think its still worth it to try to improve, and I won't stop complaining until it improves - or until I give up on it and leave completely.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Doomforge
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posted January 28, 2009 12:56 PM |
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It would be better if certain people () wouldn't insist on debating about the meaning of words, or some abstract concepts, even if they are on topic. Or, give up after 2-3 posts, because they will not convince each other anyway. Or maybe there should be another "challenge" topic, where participants would take their quote wars after 2-3 posts in other topic and discuss as much as they want? Because it's interesting at start, but after those 2-3 posts, it becomes boring (repeating the same stuff with different words quickly grows old) and nobody reads it anyway.
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mvassilev
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posted January 28, 2009 03:07 PM |
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Angelito:
Yes, but nothing is stopping somebody else from jumping into their discussion, or from going back on topic. And the moderator in a TV debate - in most TV debates, there are only two people. The moderator is just there to make sure they don't go over their allotted time.
Pan:
I agree that there shouldn't be so much arguing about semantics. But there are several things in your post with which I must take issue.
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I don't see any reason why one must always seek out some way to aggravate and provoke others into posting.
It's fun when people post. It's no fun when a thread just withers away.
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I don't feel its right to post hurtful and negative comments about people and then add a to make it all better.
The shows that it's a joke. People need to grow a thicker skin. We're not kindergartners here. "Your point is wrong because of x, y, and z. Why are you wrong so often? " "WAAAAAAAAH!!! I'M TELLING MY MOMMY!" People need to just get a hold of themselves and grow up. I can read 50 pages of arguing between TheDeath and JJ - but one page of whining by somebody else just kills everything.
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Nobody should fear posting there because they don't want to either be attacked for the way that they think , or completely ignored because a handful of others are busy at their own wars again.
I completely disagree. It's true that people shouldn't be afraid to post there - it's the Internet, who cares what people say! - but if someone posts, they'd better not be afraid of a response - a critical one, if another member sees fit to be critical. If someone posts something, they'd better not complain about people discussing what they said (unless people start going into semantics). And if a person's post is ignored - then the other members just didn't find anything to say about it.
I don't mind the way the Love thread turned out. It used to be just a sort-of meh "Cool story, man" thread, but now it's much more fun to read, IMO.
I know what we need to fix the OSM - a "whiner silence" button. Whenever someone whines about the OSM, that person would be silenced for a day.
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Asheera
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posted January 28, 2009 04:07 PM |
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"Your point is wrong because of x, y, and z. Why are you wrong so often? " "WAAAAAAAAH!!! I'M TELLING MY MOMMY!" People need to just get a hold of themselves and grow up.
Of course you're exaggerating, BUT you're talking as if you yourself did not get fed up with discussing economics with certain someone. You said so yourself that you won't do it anymore because that person doesn't listen to you. Therefore, it stopped being 'fun' to discuss anymore, and I understand why you wouldn't want to do it. I mean, why post in the first place if not for the fun of it?
But while some of us 'complain' (not 'whine', just provide some feedback about the negative aspects of OSM) in an attempt to improve the OSM, you just want to continue like it once was and do nothing, not even try to think about some improvement. Sure I'm not saying any idea would be good (most of them are actually silly) but it's worth discussing about improvements rather than being a conservative and having the same things, with all their negative parts, over and over again.
Just my 2 cents 
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mvassilev
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posted January 28, 2009 05:35 PM |
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I did get fed up. But I didn't whine about it. I just said, "That's it, I'm not talking about this any more with you. The end." And that was that. I didn't go to other threads and start whining about him.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 28, 2009 07:34 PM |
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*sigh* (It's still off limits to you, Pan)
I guess I'll address some points first and add a general opinion in the end. Well, here goes...
@Phoenix
I don't like the idea of limiting the number of posts. You mentioned the VW no-limit situation as an example, but there's a one big difference between the two cases: in VW the removal of the limit gave freedom to the good posters, even if at the expense of giving more freedom to bad posters as well. The special limit in OSM would hurt the good posters just to keep the bad ones in line. Now I by no means want to add more work to the mods (especially Pan who rarely shows up as it is ), but I think it's wrong to limit good people to limit the bad. Imo you should let the good posters do their part and punish the bad ones accordingly to their deeds, not because the good ones should never suffer because of the bad ones.
@mvass
Pan said that people should not be afraid of being attacked because of their opinion and you disagreed saying that responses are to be expected. While I agree with the last part, you seem to be missing the point of the word "attacked". There are many ways to say exactly the same thing, there is absolutely no need to choose the more aggressive one in a civilized discussion. You can always disagree with someone, even "radically" disagree, without actually attacking him, all you need to do for that is choose your words before you type them and reread your reply after you posted to be sure there's no misunderstanding.
Now for my personal experience with the OSM. Until a month or so ago I didn't dare to touch it with a ten foot pole (even though I always checked what kind of threads are born here). Then the Gaza thread was created and I knew I had to post in there, because the subject is close to me (both literally and metaphorically). The thread grew with a healthy speed and I must say that to my great surprise I've actually enjoyed posting there. Of course there were some highly immature people who didn't belong there and some who tried to derail the discussion, but all those attempts were quickly stopped by the moderators (thanks, guys ) and the thread continued. Me and Minion had a great discussion that lasted for quite a few pages and even though our opinions differed drastically it was still fun talking to him. And even though the topic of the thread was much more sensitive than half of the current threads in OSM I can honestly say that none of Minion's post (save from one which he edited later) have really offended or angered me.
So what to do to bring more people to OSM? Talk about topics they're interested in. "If you build it they will come". If that's not enough for you, you can always try HCMing some of your buddies here at HC saying something like "Hey, there's a new thread in OSM, it's about X, I know you like the subject so why don't you check it out?"
How do we make OSM a better place? We improve the attitude of the posters. And I don't mean other posters, we have the mods to worry about them, I mean yourselves. Especially YOU, yes you - the HC addict that sits right in front of a monitor thinking "nah, he must mean that other guy who flames all the time". No, I mean YOU. Improve yourself and let the moderators deal with improving the others. I promise you the results will come sooner than you think.
P.S. I don't like the road my posting style (read: the length of my posts) has taken lately.
Peace out.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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mvassilev
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posted January 28, 2009 07:57 PM |
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I agree, there's absolutely no need to be aggressive. But the amount of aggression in the OSM is very much exaggerated. Perhaps there is some between JJ and TheDeath, and occasionally a tiny bit between TheDeath and me, and some unexplainable hostility between Father and Consis, and Binabik is always caustically sarcastic (whenever he posts, which is not often), but it's really not that bad. I don't like the aggressiveness either. But it's not as great of a problem as people make it out to be.
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Eccentric Opinion
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The_Gootch
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posted January 28, 2009 09:55 PM |
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Quote:
Why doesn't The Gootch post there?
*scratches head*
I dunno, maybe because where once we had interesting writing and some good debates, OSM is now reduced to teenagers trying to emulate those that came before them? Thing is, where once we had good sparring, these teenagers are playing patty cake while parsing each other's words to stupefying levels.
Where once I might have contributed to such conversations in my own special way, I just can't muster the energy to respond. So there you have it. Apathy finally got me.
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mvassilev
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posted January 28, 2009 10:20 PM |
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Gootch, take off your rose-tinted glasses, they're really not doing much for your vision. We're "playing patty-cake", you say? How is this any different from when you, Wolfman, and Privatehudson had such debates? Then again, you never were that active of an OSM poster. But your talk about "good sparring" is severely exaggerated.
The fact is, everything passes. People become more active, then their interests change and they post differently, or not at all. The active members of the past are rare or absent today. A new generation of HCers is now in control everywhere - and they're making their mark. The members who manage to keep up with the times thrive. Others stagnate. If I may be permitted an analogy, it's a lot like when the Keynesians took over at the economics departments in many universities. The old neoclassicals felt out of place. Just like Keynes, Joan Robinson, and Hicks created a new world, so do TheDeath, Asheera (yes, Asheera is part of the new HC, and is part of the change), and JJ have created a new world. Whereas the old people - Pigou, Hayek, etc, or, in our case, Pan, you, etc, may understandably feel out of place. Still a third group - people like Lionel Robbins - or me - adapted.
It happens all the time. The world doesn't stand still.
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The_Gootch
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posted January 29, 2009 01:09 AM |
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JollyJoker
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posted January 29, 2009 08:58 AM |
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TheDeath has posted that he enjoys being "the devil's advocate" which I think is often essential in a debate where most are arguing on the same point and the topic is waning. I do not think it's needed in every thread though - I don't see any reason why one must always seek out some way to aggravate and provoke others into posting. I don't feel its right to post hurtful and negative comments about people and then add a to make it all better.
Couple of words here.
This was exactly, what provoked me lately into "hard" arguments with TD. There's nothing wrong with that in general - I like that, too, sometimes -, but you just have to know when you have to stop. And you should know whether even to begin or better not. Because you must have a point. It's just not enough, when people are making serious points, to come up with the frequent, "BUT there might just be pink unicorns somewhere".
The way I see it, people like TD, Mv, myself, Ash as well, in short, people who have a high post count on the discussion boards, should not have ANY protection at all. We post a lot, we post a lot of garbage as well and we post a lot in answering each other.
And I don't think, any of us is complaining when the tone gets a bit harder. Of course I told TD a couple of times that he had no point. I'm sure he knew it, but I'm equally sure he was enjoying it as well. (To be fair, he had a point, but that point wasn't leading where it would have made a difference or mattered for the discussion at hand).
Limiting the post count would be bad - posts would become longer automatically - and don't think for a second the ususal suspects wouldn't have the time and the spite to write a sidelong post, which would mean that no one (else) would read the stuff anymore.
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Lexxan
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posted January 29, 2009 10:44 AM |
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I dunno, maybe because where once we had interesting writing and some good debates, OSM is now reduced to teenagers trying to emulate those that came before them? Thing is, where once we had good sparring, these teenagers are playing patty cake while parsing each other's words to stupefying levels.
The Truth is killing me 
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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pandora
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posted January 29, 2009 04:56 PM |
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It's fun when people post. It's no fun when a thread just withers away.
I agree, but is everyone so unimaginative that the only way they can think to prolong a thread is to start a senseless argument?
For the most part, I think that there are a lot of intelligent posters in these threads - why not find a way to continue a discussion that doesn't alienate people?
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The shows that it's a joke. People need to grow a thicker skin. We're not kindergartners here. "Your point is wrong because of x, y, and z. Why are you wrong so often? " "WAAAAAAAAH!!! I'M TELLING MY MOMMY!" People need to just get a hold of themselves and grow up. I can read 50 pages of arguing between TheDeath and JJ - but one page of whining by somebody else just kills everything.
Sometimes its not a joke - the is written to avoid a direct insult penalty. I have no issues with when its actually a joke. As for the 'we're not kindergartners here' there are times when I think I'd need to see proof to believe that.
Where I don't think we'll ever agree Mvass, is that all your arguments seem to be about configuring the OSM to suit yourself, and further your own enjoyment. I'd like to see it be a place where more people participate.
I should have been more careful with my words, knowing the penchant some of you have for fixating on one word rather than a person's meaning. I should not have said that some members have a fear of posting, I should have said - disdain, dislike etc.
No member has ever said to me that they're afraid of being bullied etc - what I have been told is that people don't want any part of it because too many will look for a way to fight and bring each topic to the same level as the last regardless of what they say. Its more of a "why bother?" attitude.
I agree that any time you post you should expect and be ready for any type of response, I don't see anything wrong with criticism and real discussion. What I find tedious is the "I'm right, you're wrong - you're an idiot". Some people who regularly post there, need to start making real arguments about what's being said - and actually listening to what's being said in reply.
I do agree that when people start complaining about the thread that it becomes a distraction, and can very often kill the whole thing - that is why I will ask these people who do interrupt threads to use HCM or the Feedback rather than post it in the thread.
Read what Geny said about having a strong difference of opinion with someone and being able to enjoy talking with them - that to me is a good thing - because its a real difference of opinion. Its not two groups of people drawing a line in the sand and picking a side to argue for the sake of arguing.
I only replied here because you brought my name into it early on, if you choose to see that as whining, I really don't care. But you should remember that I am a moderator here, and its my 'job' to look after the forums and try to see that members are happy.
I've never closed a thread because its tone didn't suit my own taste - I've never told you or anyone that they must stop posting, I have no desire to act in any way that would hamper your enjoyment of HC - I just ask that maybe you guys give some of the same consideration to other members.
I'm tired of the way you try to paint me into the role you've decided I play - and I really don't wish to turn this into yet another senseless 'debate'. All I'm asking is that you try to realize that HC is for everyone, trying to tell people that there is a new HC that we need to follow is a little much..Writing that I'm behind "the times" because I don't see things exactly as you do is childish , as a moderator I have a set of rules that I need to follow here, and regardless of whether or not you find them to be antiquated that's not going to change until Valeriy says so.
btw - I never imagined that someone would ever criticise the_Gootch for looking at the world through rose coloured glasses... I guess we really do live on separate worlds if that's how you see it.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted January 29, 2009 05:03 PM |
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@Pan: people don't usually post because they are not very active and their whole post is going to get shredded down into "So what's your point?" or "You have no point at all" or getting quoted bit-by-bit (this saying because I, myself, am responsible for some of it even though I got softer in these parts in the meantime).
Well I'm not very active lately in the OSM (busy  ) and it still seems like a bad place, probably even worse. It's not that they are afraid to post, it's that they know it's pointless because of the response they get. I'm an OSM veteran and I know that kinda well
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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pandora
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posted January 29, 2009 05:08 PM |
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Isn't that what I just said in my last post? lol
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TheDeath
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posted January 29, 2009 05:09 PM |
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Well I had to give my 2 cents
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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pandora
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posted January 29, 2009 10:36 PM |
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All you can really do is keep trying
Hopefully more people will come around to posting in the Otherside, but you've had responses - so people are reading - don't be discouraged 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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mvassilev
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posted January 29, 2009 11:01 PM |
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Pan:
We just have to take what we've got. Perhaps some of the discussions are pointless - like when TheDeath starts playing devil's advocate. Perhaps some of the discussions alienate people. But that's leaps and bounds better than not having discussions at all.
If I may be permitted an analogy (yes, the OSM has given me a love for analogies ) - should people not allowed to build houses if it means that not everyone will have a house? No, of course not. The OSM for none is infinitely worse than an OSM for some.
And it's not like we're keeping people out. It's that they don't want to post. It's like going to a high-quality store and complaining about the prices. And if the prices are forced to decrease, what do you think will happen to the quality? Exactly.
And we're definitely not kindergartners here. We should be able to take such things without going to our mommies to cry.
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Where I don't think we'll ever agree Mvass, is that all your arguments seem to be about configuring the OSM to suit yourself, and further your own enjoyment.
Can you blame me?
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I'm asking is that you try to realize that HC is for everyone, trying to tell people that there is a new HC that we need to follow is a little much.
No, what you're not seeing is the irony here. Back in the day where I was more pessimistic about HC, I talked about the "golden old ages" and how things were better "back then". You and The_Gootch tried to convince me otherwise. And, now you've succeeded. But now it seems that our positions are reversed. I can only quote what The_Gootch said on the subject:Quote:
Pfft, every generation thinks they're the best. And every generation thinks the ones before them are snooty losers who've overstayed their welcome. And every generation thinks the ones who've come after them are a bunch of selfish Jerry's kids who've no idea what the word 'community' means.
I agree with this sentiment entirely. I was merely phrasing it in a different way. We are, by my reckoning, in the Fifth HC. The Sixth HC should be here soon - and people aren't even done whining about the Fifth one. As for Val's rules - I don't think we the OSMers are breaking any of the Seven Rules of the CoC.
And we just have different ideas of what "fun" is.
Father:
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Maybe we can have debates with rewards attached to them? & a judge or judging panel to award favor to one side or the other? Then at the end of the debate (you can have single sides or teams) the judge(s) can reward the winner. The winners can either stack up things like SRT's or something more serious like QP's.
TheDeath and I actually tried something like that once. And TA was the judge. How'd it go? Pretty well, for the first few pages. Then the number of quotes gradually began to increase. Then TA announced that there was no way he would be able to read all of those posts and judge them - it was like drinking from a fire hose. And then it just went downhill, because I got tired.
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Eccentric Opinion
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pandora
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The Chosen One
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posted January 29, 2009 11:11 PM |
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Edited by pandora at 23:12, 29 Jan 2009.
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Where you lose me every time this comes up - is that I cannot find the posting where I said that you guys have to stop post, or that you shouldn't be there.
All of your posts directed at me come across like you think I'm saying go away, HC should only be this way - there's no room for you.
I have never said, or thought that.
I have voiced my opinion that I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over, in some cases its quite literally the same thing. You may switch around a few key words, but generally a lot of those threads just merge into the song that never ends.
Using your shop analogy, what I'm saying that I would like to see more of a variety around the store. Think on it as ethnic foods, still nourishing but not quite the same as what you usually eat every day, Rather than pay a high price to buy the same things every time you go there - you have a more diverse selection to choose from.
And once those new things are introduced, it would be nice if people could accept them for what they are - and try something new - rather than just try to make it taste exactly as your usual fare does.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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