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| Thread: Cloister |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted May 10, 2009 10:33 PM |
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Except that "marrying it off" happens when they are adults so they aren't really children anymore?
Not if there's parental consent. 
Yes. And by the law, they can't FORCE another consenting ADULT to marry. If parents want it, and if the former-child doesn't disagree, it's ok.
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And that makes it right?
*sigh*
Mvass, what the hell do you mean? Since it doesn't break the law, why would it not be "right"?
What do you actually suggest? Let's keep children in the basement until they become adults (biologically speaking -- cause their experiences will surely suck  ). I mean, sorry bro, but if you favor a "free-style + mass-media advertising" culture as being 'right' compared to another culture (as Dagoth mentioned) then you are a hypocrite... and favoritism. Somehow like "non-separation of culture and state"
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I was talking about decisions that ARE stupid (And Ideological...
Which would be...?
No, I'm asking for an objective argument since you say they ARE by DEFINITION stupid. Adults do "stupid" things all the time (we call it 'consenting' so it's ok), but then again, we don't judge them, and neither will I add my definition of stupid here as a universal fact. So how can YOU say which things ARE stupid as if it's some kind of a FACT?
I don't agree with Elodin on some things here (the most obvious ones ), but your comment doesn't make much sense.
@Elodin: I'm a socialist and a believer. Guess I'm rare too huh?
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xerdux
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posted May 10, 2009 10:33 PM |
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Im atheist and I can say yes, in one way atheism is a religion depending on your point of view. I dont consider atheism a religion but I can understand those who do. I think that the Big Bang theory will be totally remaked or even scrapped later and that we will find an better possibility.
Sure, there are probably atheists that teach their children to be atheists but I do not think the majority does.
I do think that the majority of religious parents influence their children with religion though.
Which in my opinion is completly wrong. The child should be able choose a faith if he/she considers religion viable.
Im sorry if someone gets offended, but I find marrying away an person disgusting. And thats my opinion.
And yes, if you marry away an young girl to an elder man then you support pedophilia.
I strongly disagree that christainty teaches one to love others. There is so much crap in the Bible which we would consider "errors" in the modern society.
It used to be like this "If you dont accept Gods eternal love then you will go to hell and burn forever in searing fire".
The only "religion" that teaches love is Buddhism. Although I dont agree with some stuff there either and I could never bother to become one myself.
Also I think that the number of Atheist graveyards and marriages etc is increasing a lot in Sweden.
Religious people would probably consider atheist graveyards etc and anomaly.
Most Swedes automatically become members of the Swedish Church when they are given a name from the church (which is just an traditional thing, considering 80% of our population doesn't actually believe in god). But in average, a Swede visits a church service once a year and the Swedish Church loses atleast 1% of its members per year.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 10, 2009 10:44 PM |
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Quite often rather than addressing an argument you make some such comment as the one above.
What "argument"? I don't see any.
Talking with you is like this: someone says something like "Religion is no free pass to extra rights and certainly no excuse for antisocial behaviour."
And the you start raving: "Christian-bashers! Stalinist, atheist tries to claim world dominion!"
Interestingly enough, if someone comes up with an evil thing done in the name of Christ:
"No, all lies, Jesus preaches to love each other, therefore Christians are the most peaceful and goodwilling people in the world."
Sickening.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted May 11, 2009 12:22 AM |
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Xerox, again, you ave no respect to different cultures whatsoever. In some cultures, a marriage is the affair of the entire community, so the entire community decides it.
And that makes it right?
No, mean to say that in some cultures we are considered total jerks and I think it's just polite to stop bashing other cultures, instead of saying: "That"s retarded." and then getting awa with it, while saying: In my humble opinion.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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mvassilev
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posted May 11, 2009 12:24 AM |
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If your children always hear you say negative things about religious people they will look down on religious people and perhaps hate them even if you did not have a "formal" discussion with them about religion.
How presumptive you are! I'll have you know that my parents never said anything bad about religious people simply because they were religious - except extremist fanaticism, of course.
I've already told you that Christians are supposed to follow the Old Covenant if they want to follow the Bible 100% (and, besides, even if they don't, what does it say about God if He wants Jews to do that?). And that was just one example. Jesus himself said that people are supposed to love him more than they love their parents. Is Jesus anti-family? 
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Sure it is. The Supreme Court says so.
And the German State said that Jews aren't people...
And you severely mischaracterise atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in a God. It's not the belief in the absence of a God. It does not necessarily include support of any alternate explanation.
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2) You have to have faith that the univers appeared from absolute nothing with absoltely no cause even though the law of thermodynamics make it clear that could not have happened.
As an atheist, I do not believe that.
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Libertarian atheists are quite rare.
The vast majority of libertarians I know are either deists or atheists.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted May 11, 2009 01:03 AM |
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How unpleasant can this guy be. It surprises me ove and over.
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Alos, there are things you have to take by faith to be an atheist.
1) You can't prove that there is no God. So you have faith there is not.
You and other atheists are very evangelical in your efforts. You don't simply disbelieve in God. You have faith that there is no God.
2) You have to have faith that the univers appeared from absolute nothing with absoltely no cause even though the law of thermodynamics make it clear that could not have happened.
3) You have to have faith that inanimate matter began to live. No proof.
Phew... Thats the biggest pile of BS I've heard in a while!
I can't prove the existence of the invisible philosophical magma-pudding as well. Acording to you that means I have ?faith?, in the non-existence of a supreme philosophical pudding.
Requiring reasonable logic and physical evidence to prove the existence of something is the very opposite of faith. Which is acceptance of unproven facts, despites any sort of counter-argument, based on "a feeling that cannot be described".
The absence of proof about the first living creature doesn't make atheists any faithful. We are perfectly aware that an old theory can be replaced by a new, more likely one. And billions of years of chemiotaxy gathering molecules and cells is still a hell lot better theory than an invisible man that has no begining or end making it all appear in 7 days, a couple of thousand years ago.
That is exactly the kind of stuff that requires faith to be accepted.
But what am I trying to do... enlighten someone who firmly believes atheism is a religion, commanded by Stalin and Pol Pot, that has murdered millions...
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted May 11, 2009 01:13 AM |
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I can't prove the existence of the invisible philosophical magma-pudding as well. Acording to you that means I have ?faith?, in the non-existence of a supreme philosophical pudding.
I agree with you, about the faith part. But I disagree with the following, which are just as subjective as any "belief" or "faith". (bolded)
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Requiring reasonable logic...
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And billions of years of chemiotaxy gathering molecules and cells is still a hell lot better theory than an invisible man that has no begining or end making it all appear in 7 days, a couple of thousand years ago.
However, as I probably have to ask, I assume you're speaking about scientifical theories right?
Now I have to go further: "better" in what sense? In the sense of a 'scientific theory', or in the sense of 'better explanation'?
The latter is not even a theory, because it isn't concerned with predictions. However, and this is the part where I take atheists as religious/fanatics, this says nothing about explanation. Predictions are TOOLS, not explanations.
Saying theories are about explanations (rather than predictions) is on the same level as a religious dude claiming his religion is "better" at explaining what happens after death than another's religion. (both CAN be explanations, but none is a scientific theory since you can't predict anything). I would also have to add that predictions have absolutely NOTHING to do with making an explanation. OF COURSE you can add your own explanations to a prediction but it doesn't say anything about its truth, like ANY explanation for that matter (I'm not saying this one is worse! just on the same level).
So thus I conclude: if by "better" you mean a better explanation, then sorry, it's as subjective as it gets. In the scientific sense (prediction-wise) it is a better theory, because the other one isn't even a theory.
A theory that doesn't predict is called a hypothesis.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 11, 2009 02:34 AM |
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I strongly disagree that christainty teaches one to love others.
Feel free to lie about Chritianity all you want.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
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Talking with you is like this: someone says something like "Religion is no free pass to extra rights and certainly no excuse for antisocial behaviour."
And the you start raving: "Christian-bashers! Stalinist, atheist tries to claim world dominion!"
It would seem you are incapable of having an intelligent and honest discussion.
I have seen you on other boards and in the end you always fall apart and start spewing out such garbage in extended debates. Address the arguements instead of insulting your debate opponent.
I alreay quoted where you instulted me though you claimed you had not.
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How presumptive you are! I'll have you know that my parents never said anything bad about religious people simply because they were religious - except extremist fanaticism, of course.
I did not say what your parents did or did not talke about. I did say ALL children learn by observing and listening to their parents. When atheist say negative things about religious people around their children that instills a negative belief in the child.
And who is a fanatic? Someone who goes to church and tries to live like Jesus said to live?
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I've already told you that Christians are supposed to follow the Old Covenant if they want to follow the Bible 100% (and, besides, even if they don't, what does it say about God if He wants Jews to do that?). And that was just one example. Jesus himself said that people are supposed to love him more than they love their parents. Is Jesus anti-family?
The Old Covenant was for the Jews. all Jews vowed to obey the Law and knew the punishment for breaking the law. Any Jew could leave Israel and go elsewhere if he disagreed with the Law.
Christians are under the New Covenant. Christ never authorized his church to punish an sin.
The verse you refer to means that Christ must be first in our lives. If our family tells us to do something that opposes the commands of God we must obey God rather than man.
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Atheism is the lack of belief in a God.
Your brand of atheist argues that there is in fact no God. You are arguing this as a fact. You don't disbelieve in God. You have faith that God does not exist.
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As an atheist, I do not believe that.
You believe the univers can into being without the influence of God. That is impossible considering the laws of thermodynamics.
Maybe you would care to state how "existence" came to be from none existence?
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I can't prove the existence of the invisible philosophical magma-pudding as well. Acording to you that means I have ?faith?, in the non-existence of a supreme philosophical pudding.
It means if you make the statement "There is no God" you have made a statement of faith because you can't prove God dos not exist. Atheism is your religion.
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And billions of years of chemiotaxy gathering molecules and cells is still a hell lot better theory than an invisible man that has no begining or end making it all appear in 7 days, a couple of thousand years ago.
Nothing can only produce nothing by itself. Atheists have to claim that out of nothingness came something for no reason.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 11, 2009 02:54 AM |
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Your brand of atheist argues that there is in fact no God. You are arguing this as a fact.
Where?
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Maybe you would care to state how "existence" came to be from none existence?
I wouldn't, because it can't.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted May 11, 2009 05:52 AM |
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It means if you make the statement "There is no God" you have made a statement of faith because you can't prove God dos not exist. Atheism is your religion.
Lollll. Oh yeah! This guy is just lovely.
What Elodin says is basically the following:
When I say the supreme-magma-pudding does'nt exist I have just made a statement of faith because I can't prove it does not exist. Anti-puddinism is my religion.
Elodin, your logic flaws get not only bolder but more confuse with time. I say not even my 7 year old cousin would buy this last one.
Well Im not explaining this fallacy again. I've done it before, and you have shown no real concern about keeping logically handicaped arguments. You kept poisoning the well, failing to understand correlation-causation differences, affirming the consequent, using repetition, among others.
I conclude that there are only two possibilities that justify that:
1 - You dont really care your argumentation lacks logic.
2 - You are not intelligent enough to understand where you are violating logic, therefore failing to percieve your rudimentary argument as not logically sound.
In both cases, it makes any discussion rather circular and unpleasant, reason why im quitting this one and much likely ignoring your comments from now on.
About atheism being a product of faith:
A common distortion of the atheist position is that we do not simply disbelief in god, but that we DO believe in god deep inside and reject him out of some sort of petulant spite.
Another common distortion is that atheists completely deny the possibility of gods existence. While in fact people of science like myself would never completely discard something without definitive evidence of its non-existence. I myself say "I dont believe in god", rather than saying "there is no god". This kind of categorical argumentation is much more often used by religious people.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 11, 2009 06:27 AM |
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Death:
I missed your post earlier. I apologise.
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And by the law, they can't FORCE another consenting ADULT to marry.
No, I mean marry their child off before the child is an adult.
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ince it doesn't break the law, why would it not be "right"?
Rights do not come from laws. Laws merely exist to protect rights. Something illegal can still be a right - just a right that is being denied. Likewise, something legal may actually not be a right - indeed, it may be a wrong.
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What do you actually suggest?
I'm suggesting bringing kids up so they can think for themselves.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
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posted May 11, 2009 08:39 AM |
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It would seem you are incapable of having an intelligent and honest discussion.
Fine description of yourself.
Here are quotes from your posts only from this thread (not mentionong the LGBT thread):
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Yet another religion bashing thread eh?
Your very first sentence in your very first post here in this thread.
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Anti-theism is your religion, eh? Or I suspect it is just anti-Christian.
Do you think you are God?
It is my opinion that you are in a fanatical anti-Christian religious prison (mental.) It appears you are one of the deniens who shares the anti-Christian bigotted hateful haughty views of atheists such as Richard Dawkins. (This is all from your very first post here in this thread.)
I guess the all-knowing socialst beaurocrat, agent of the all-knowing socialist State knows what the proper religious upbringing of the child should be, eh? The State must ensure the child is indoctrinated to not question its authority over ever aspect of his life. All hail Father Stalin!!! Father Stalin know best. Damn all other fathers and mothers!!!!
Yes, for only Father Stalin or Father Obama is the appropriate one to chose the religious tradition that all children should be raised in right?
You seem to have a knack for totally ignoring questions and just sluring others.
For example, from looking at your posts I see that if you have any children they will grow up hating religious people because they will hear all the hate coming out of your mouth about religious people.
You have stated you are a socialist. You have argued from the point fo view of socialists. I addressed your points whereas you only insulted me.
Parents need to be protected from socialist beaurocrats not from their parents. Parents love their children the Stalinite does not. He has never even met the child. The children need to be protected from the fanatical socialist who wishes to indoctrinate them to bow down to the state.
It is moronic to say that forcint a child to pray is like pushing him down a flight of stairs. How stupid and bigottedd. (This one is: claiming something that was never said, and then claiming that it's moronic, stupid and bigotted.)
I recall the Freedom from Religion atheist group recently posting signs saying that religious people are hard hearted and mentally enslaved.That errects barriers. I recall attheist tyrants murdering over 250 million people in the past 100 years. That erects barriers. I recall Lenin and Stalin making sure Bibles were outlawed. That erects barriers.
You are right. The religion of atheist should stop trying to supress all other religions.
You are right that I don't like socialism and its twin, atheism, seeking to oppress the rights of parents and their determination to indoctrinate children to bow to the state.
If you don't like the idea of freedom, bad luck. Not everyone worships the state-god like socialists.
Ah, your insults were a little more subtle in this thread though you can hardly claim your tone was "civil." Making statements like requiring a child to pray is like pushing them down a flight of stairs is a statment deliberaltely meant to offend religious people.
It is as if I said socialist only want the state to indoctrinate all children because they like to rape them and they don't want the children to know rape is wrong.
I am sorry you are unable to come up with a rational arguement to my posts and must resort to insults instead. Better luck next time.
Yes, it is sad that many people never recovere from the religion of atheism's brainwashing
Feel free to lie about Chritianity all you want
It would seem you are incapable of having an intelligent and honest discussion.
I have seen you on other boards and in the end you always fall apart and start spewing out such garbage in extended debates. Address the arguements instead of insulting your debate opponent.
And who is a fanatic? Someone who goes to church and tries to live like Jesus said to live?
Not bad for a 2 and a half pages thread.
Hatemongering, aggression, twisting words and sentences, insults, generalizing, political innuendo - and now compare that with the bold print. You claim, the kind of spirit you show in your posts is what Jesus said to live?
Let me spell it out, clearly, so that you and people like you are able to understand it:
People like you have been responsible for the bad reputation Christianity has earned itself in the course of 1500 years; people who claim to live like Jesus said to live, but you won't hear words of love coming over their lips. Only admonishing, censure, rebuke, threats, reproach, accusation. Like the quotes show.
And in this case it's so obvious, isn't it? Even if you were right - which you aren't -, but EVEN IF YOU HAD A POINT OR TWO: Jesus, whom you claim to be your Lord, would not approve of the way you throw insults, slavering, raving, twisting, spitting, attempting to make your points. Definitely not. Even if you thought that someone would insult you or Him. He'd want you to keep calm - the true faith can't be descredited no matter what the false prophets and the unblievers are saying. You are no holy warrior. You are not supposed to bash in the skulls of those that don't agree with what the Lord says, and you are not supposed to do it with words neither.
The only thing you did until now was outing yourself as a right-wing religious fanatic clinging to the spirit of the Old Covenenant, who starts throwing around quotes of the New one only when it's convenient. You are like the missionaries in the old days of the Inquisition and the Conquistadores: the left hand holds up the book. "We bring you the holy message of eternal love and hope." And when the answer is, "Keep it", there's fire and the sword in your right to burn out the un-righteous who won't heed the message. As such you'd be a disgrace for the faith you claim to follow.
And should you answer this OR ANYTHING ELSE: try doing it without throwing insulting labels and generalizations around. Try being civil and polite - even if you feel, that you or yourself got insulted: after all you are supposed to follow somone who preached love and peace, aren't you? Last time I checked the NEW Covenant wasn't the one with the eye-for-an-eye idea. With your zeal you are doing neither yourself nor your faith a favour.
Oh, and on other thing. You MIGHT think, that I'd hold the opinion that others can insult you and your faith as much as they want, and you should just show them the other cheek. While that's true - luckily enough for us all in this case it's not necessary. If you feel insulted, if you think people post inappropriate things, you are free to report it to the moderators and let them take action.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 11, 2009 11:33 AM |
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Your brand of atheist argues that there is in fact no God. You are arguing this as a fact.
Where?
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Maybe you would care to state how "existence" came to be from none existence?
I wouldn't, because it can't.
Do you say "God does not exist" or "I don't believe in God."
So you believe that there never was a time when there was "nothing?"
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you have shown no real concern about keeping logically handicaped arguments.
Perhaps your understanding is handicapped. If you have no proof that God does not exist yet make the statement "God does not exist" you are certainly making a statement of faith.
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Here are quotes from your posts only from this thread (not mentionong the LGBT thread):
I learned from my cousin to "hold a mirror" in front of the person who becomes rude in a discussion. So if I have a post that seems to be a little "rude" look at the post I am responding to. By using the "mirror" method I hope to show the rude person what they are doing and hopefully bring the discussion to one that is more civil.
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Hatemongering, aggression, twisting words and sentences, insults, generalizing, political innuendo - and now compare that with the bold print. You claim, the kind of spirit you show in your posts is what Jesus said to live?
No, I use a mirror, like I said. I have yet to see any extended discussion where you don't become rude. Your comments are always anti-Christian, anti-American, or anti-capitalism if discussions relative to those things come up.
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People like you have been responsible for the bad reputation Christianity has earned itself in the course of 1500 years
People like you are the reason socialsits murdered so many religious people in the name of the state-god.
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Jesus, whom you claim to be your Lord, would not approve of the way you throw insults, slavering, raving, twisting, spitting, attempting to make your points.
Nice way to try to silence voice of opposition. Jesus spoke tenderly and gently to those honest people who wanted to know the truth. He was actually quite harsh to those who deliberately tried to distort the truth.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Perhaps you should read the Bible and read how the prophets also rebuked people. That apostles also spoke harshly as necessary.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Words cannot harm you but might jar you to your senses. If you do not speak rudely there is no reason for me to hold up a mirror. If you don't like your reflectiion then change it
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The only thing you did until now was outing yourself as a right-wing religious fanatic
You just continue insulting me. I already showed you lied when you said you had not insulted me before. I would much prefer a civil discussion however if you decide you can actually address issues rather than throwing insults around.
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And should you answer this OR ANYTHING ELSE: try doing it without throwing insulting labels and generalizations around.
Lol! That is so very funny since you have been insulting me!! 
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If you feel insulted, if you think people post inappropriate things, you are free to report it to the moderators and let them take action.
No, I am a big boy. I don't need to run to tattle to a moderator. If you continue to insult me, just expect me to hold up my mirror. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 11, 2009 12:17 PM |
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No, I use a mirror, like I said. I have yet to see any extended discussion where you don't become rude. Your comments are always anti-Christian, anti-American, or anti-capitalism if discussions relative to those things come up.
Another interesting revelation. Say something, anything, against the Holy Triniry of CHRISTIANITY, UNITED STATES and CAPITALISM, and you are "rude".
While that explains something, it's no excuse for this:
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People like you are the reason socialsits murdered so many religious people in the name of the state-god.
You will take that back.
Moderation, I'm not inclined to let that stand.
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"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 11, 2009 12:22 PM |
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If people don't stop insulting each other I WILL close this thread, or at the very least start handing out the bad kind of shinies. Stick to the issues.
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Message received.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 11, 2009 03:16 PM |
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My great-grandmother's sister shot her fiance in the knee after catching him cheating on her. She then voluntarily went to spend the rest of her life in cloister.
She died at the age of 106.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 11, 2009 04:02 PM |
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I have to agree with Mytical here.
This is again an OSM thread which runs out of hand. And you know what? It is again cause of/about "religion"!
@Elodin
This is the last warning for you! Any further hidden or direct insult will automatically result in a penalty. You really should leave out your extreme religious attitudes out of those threads. If you are not able to hold back, be sure we will help ya out!
@all
If members of HC are not able to discuss topics refering to religion or similars, we will just close any thread about those topics in the future without any warning.
Most of the time, the internet is full of teenager who play adults, but on HC, it often seems to be vice versa. 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 11, 2009 06:00 PM |
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@Elodin
This is the last warning for you! Any further hidden or direct insult will automatically result in a penalty. You really should leave out your extreme religious attitudes out of those threads. If you are not able to hold back, be sure we will help ya out!
Others have been insulting me yet now I am the one to blame eh?
What "extreme religous" views are not allowed?
I have spoken to others the way they have been speaking. I have been insulted a number of times and it seems no moderator cared to warn others. It is interesting that it appears it is ok that others insulted me.
This is your site and you have the right to allow or disallow views to be expressed on a private site. If only the atheit view or pro homosexual marriage view is allowed you should post a sticky thread about the views that are not allowed to be expressed.
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 11, 2009 06:03 PM |
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Most of the time, the internet is full of teenager who play adults, but on HC, it often seems to be vice versa.
So this means im smarter then everybody else in the thread and come with better opinions?
(sorry please no -QP it was a joke)
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 11, 2009 08:32 PM |
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No, I mean marry their child off before the child is an adult.
But then comes the question and problem whether children can marry at all 
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Rights do not come from laws.
hehe wait a second, I was talking about right/wrong, not about a person's rights lol
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I'm suggesting bringing kids up so they can think for themselves.
Which is kinda impossible and very hard to do right. When we live in a world with freedom and advertising this becomes impossible. Of course, advertising is no problem for adults (except being annoying), but not for children who don't even "know to think for themselves"
And by 'advertising' I mean anything at all, including brainwashing education.
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