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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 04:43 PM |
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What the hell are you talking about?
I asked a plain question, it doesn't look you can answer it:
If you live in an "evil" country - like Nazi Germany - and you fight against the evil oppressors, killing some of them, are you still a Christian or not (if you were one before)?
To simplify this - would that be killing or murdering?
To reverse the question: the soldiers of Nazi Germany, the normal ones, who simply went into war and killed people: were they killers or murderers, Christians or no Christians (if they were Christians before)?
You have to be able to answer that - YOU are the one with the absolute morals.
@ Death
The above is for Elodin, sorry.
For your post: what do you mean, "how much of a Christian"? Are there grades or something? Half a Christian? 19% Christian? What?
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted August 27, 2009 04:54 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 17:07, 27 Aug 2009.
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I thought we were talking about whether they were doing it in the name of Christ or not.
Quote:
For your post: what do you mean, "how much of a Christian"? Are there grades or something? Half a Christian? 19% Christian? What?
Well Christian means follower of Christ, but as you know, people sin all the time (and should repent). So we technically-wise aren't exactly pure followers of Christ. I don't know the percentage or how to calculate it, it was just an observation because we definitely are NOT Christ. That's all I'm saying.
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Elodin
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posted August 27, 2009 05:19 PM |
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Quote:
What the hell are you talking about?
I asked a plain question, it doesn't look you can answer it:
If you live in an "evil" country - like Nazi Germany - and you fight against the evil oppressors, killing some of them, are you still a Christian or not (if you were one before)?
To simplify this - would that be killing or murdering?
Actually, I have been answering your questions and you have refused to anwer mine.
Like I said, one can keep twisting and twisting and trying to manipulate words and try to get an answer that can be twisted to mean something it does not but that has nothing to so with truth.
The Bible defines who a Christian is and the Bible says no Christian murders so I have established that no Christian is a murderer.
No cammandment can be found to torture, punish, or kill sinners. In fact such things are the exact opposite of what Jesus said to do.
Yes, a nation can have an army. Yes, a Christian be a part of that army. Yes, Christians did fight against Hitler and yes it was ok.
Yes, Christians can be a part of a political movement to overthrow an oppressive government if there is no other alternative. No, they can't bomb police stations, ect to make a political statement.
BUT CHRISTIANS CAN'T GO OUT AND KILL ABORTION DOCTORS OR ANY OTHER SINNERS ON THEIR OWN. CHRIST DID NOT AUTHORIZE THE CHURCH TO KILL SINNERS, TORTURE SINNERS, OR TO PUNISH SIN.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BIBLE SAYS THE STATE IS TO PUNISH EVIL. CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO PUNISH EVIL.
The soldiers in Nazi Germany who participated in any way with the gas chambers and such were murderers.
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted August 27, 2009 05:34 PM |
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But the bible also says that no christian eats pork and all kinds of bs, doesn't it? I mean, you literally just made the whole Vatican state plus half of southern Europe being not christian during the greater part of the middle ages, and while that might make you feel more righteous in your belief, it's a completely empty statement.
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TheDeath
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posted August 27, 2009 05:48 PM |
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"all kinds of bs" -- I don't get what's so bs about it.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 05:51 PM |
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@ Elodin
I find your last post pretty interesting, Elodin. Let's stay there for a while. I summarize:
So you can be part of an army, killing - unknowingly - for an evil purpose, BELIEVING it to be a good one (lied to by the evil government) and still be a Christian, you say.
Now, if an evil POPE or SPIRITUAL LEADER tells a person evil lies, making that person KILL on his behalf, wouldn't that be the same then? Wouldn't the killer do it BELIEVING that he kills, not murders?
On the other hand you can still be a Christian, fighting against an oppressive government, killing those oppressors... err, but how do you KNOW that said government is evil and oppressive, I wonder? What makes a government evil enough, so that MURDERING people becomes KILLING people, so that a Christian is still a Christian?
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Elodin
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posted August 27, 2009 09:58 PM |
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Quote:
But the bible also says that no christian eats pork and all kinds of bs, doesn't it? I mean, you literally just made the whole Vatican state plus half of southern Europe being not christian during the greater part of the middle ages, and while that might make you feel more righteous in your belief, it's a completely empty statement.
No, you are wrong. The Jews under the Old Covenant had food laws. Christians are under the New Covenant, and there are no food laws in the New Covenant. It is amazing how much some atheists like to talk bad about Christianity and yet how little they know about Christianity.
Quote:
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
@JJ
I have defined my positions well and you have refused to answer any of my questions.
No Christian is a murderer. A murderer deliberately kills a known innocent person.
Gee, JJ it is not hard for me to recognize an oppressive government.
A pope or spiritual leader does not have the authority to tell anyone to kill anyone. The church has no authority to kill, torture, or punish any sinner.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 27, 2009 10:42 PM |
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Quote:
@JJ
I have defined my positions well and you have refused to answer any of my questions.
No Christian is a murderer. A murderer deliberately kills a known innocent person.
Gee, JJ it is not hard for me to recognize an oppressive government.
A pope or spiritual leader does not have the authority to tell anyone to kill anyone. The church has no authority to kill, torture, or punish any sinner.
Isn't it a bit casually, how you decide what is killing and what is murder? "It's not that hard FOR YOU to recognize an oppressive government?" Are you the only potential Christian now? So how will the rest recognize.
Moreover: "A murderer deliberately kills a lnown innocent person." Since you mentioned those abortion doctors - you DO think, they are murderers, right? You've said that often enough. And they certainly are not innocent. But, heck your country ALLOWS innocent babies to be systematically murdered... I mean, if that's not oppressive I don't know what is. You are calling them babies, aren't you? Babies, Jews, Christians - murdering is murdering, right?
Now, this is still about Christians and terrorism. If a Christian is allowed to fight an oppressive government, then he is allowed to be a terrorst, because that's what you are when you kill members of the government.
If a soldier is still a Christian, when he fights for an evil purpose in the believe that it's a good one, vecause he was lied to and trusted his government, then it actually depends on his BELIEF (that he does good) whether he's considered a Christian or not, but not on what he's actually doing.
You might say: IF a Christian TRULY and HONESTLY believes that he does something good when he's putting someone to death, then he's KILLING not MURDERING (and don't bother to deny it, you've already said that yourself).
That means, of course, that a terorist is no terrorist when he is truly and honestly believing that he's doing something good - which would be true then for Christians as well.
Oh and Death, on't start arguing: I'm just sketching the implications of what Elodin said.
Now, Elodin, since YOU have now indeed and probably for the first time proven something, namely that there CAN be Christian terrorists - at least according to what you believe, - *I* will answer YOUR questions.
So go on, shoot.
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elodin
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posted August 28, 2009 01:33 AM |
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Edited by elodin at 01:34, 28 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
Isn't it a bit casually, how you decide what is killing and what is murder? "It's not that hard FOR YOU to recognize an oppressive government?" Are you the only potential Christian now? So how will the rest recognize.
No. I said murder is the deliberate killing of a known innocent person. That seems to be a straightforward definition that MOST people can understand and agree with.
Recognizing an oppressive government is pretty easy. Does the government do things like murder political dissidents? Is an atheist in charge and going around killing all the religious people? AKA Stalin, Pol Pot, ect, ect.
Quote:
Since you mentioned those abortion doctors - you DO think, they are murderers, right?
Yes, abortion doctors are murderers and everyone knowingly involved in approval or expediting the process is a murderer.
I specificly stated that Christians can't kill, torture, or punish sinners in any way. You do remember reading that right? If not, go back and review a few posts of mine.
And I specificly said it is wrong to kill abortion doctors because I anticipated from your weak arguments where you were trying to lead the "discussion."
I shall quote myself so you don't have to go back and verify what I said.
Quote:
BUT CHRISTIANS CAN'T GO OUT AND KILL ABORTION DOCTORS OR ANY OTHER SINNERS ON THEIR OWN. CHRIST DID NOT AUTHORIZE THE CHURCH TO KILL SINNERS, TORTURE SINNERS, OR TO PUNISH SIN.
I HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THE BIBLE SAYS THE STATE IS TO PUNISH EVIL. CHRISTIANS ARE NOT TO PUNISH EVIL.
There, see? No killing of abortion doctors. No killing, torturing, or punishing of any sinner to punish sin. Isn't that statement quite clear? You have to try very hard to misunderstand that.
Also, you will note in the second paragraph I specifically stated that the state is to punish evil, not Christians. That too is an easy to understand statement.
Quote:
Now, this is still about Christians and terrorism. If a Christian is allowed to fight an oppressive government, then he is allowed to be a terrorst, because that's what you are when you kill members of the government.
I'm sorry, but you have some strange ideas. Fighting an oppressive government is not terrorism. The founding fathers were not terrorists. A legitimate government derives its power from the people and has no right to exist if the people want to disband or change it. I realize that is counter to the idea that socialist have that the state is god and grants rights to the people.
So an oppressive government has no right to exist and the people can remove that government at their pleasure. If the government refuses to step down then the people have a right to revolt and remove it. The US founding fathers wrote that is no only the right of the people to overthrow an oppressive government but that it is their duty.
Quote:
You might say: IF a Christian TRULY and HONESTLY believes that he does something good when he's putting someone to death, then he's KILLING not MURDERING (and don't bother to deny it, you've already said that yourself).
Prophecy fulfilled.
Oh, show me where the Bible says for a Christian to put someone to death for their sin.
Quote:
Like I said, one can keep twisting and twisting and trying to manipulate words and try to get an answer that can be twisted to mean something it does not but that has nothing to so with truth.
Quote:
Now, Elodin, since YOU have now indeed and probably for the first time proven something, namely that there CAN be Christian terrorists - at least according to what you believe, - *I* will answer YOUR questions.
No, there can be Christian terrorists. Quote me saying there can be a Christian terrorist please or admit that you "miss spoke."
1) "Don't start that song again. They ARE Christian terrorists, namely anti-abortion terrorists."
Quote a New Testament verse that says for Christians to kill murderers.
2.) "They THINK they are Christian, they call themselves Christian and they do it in the name of and with Bible quotes. For all practical purposes they ARE Christian."
Quote the New Testament verse that says if you think you are a Christian you are a Christian.
The devil quoted and twisted God's Word in the garden of Eden. The devil took verses out of context to try to trick Christ with.
Quote the New Testmtament verse that says it is ok for a Christian to kill a sinner if he thinks it is ok.
Reconcile your above statments with the verse that says no murderer has eternal life and with the verse that says no Christian hates anyone.
3) "You cannot just "excommunicate" everyone whom you don't like or who is not a Christian according to your Bible interpretation."
Quote the New Testament verse that says something other than the Bible defines who a Christian is.
4) The Ulster problem is basically an inter-Christian problem as well - you could describe the IRA as a very specific Catholic terror organization.
Quote the New Testament verse that says Christians are to resolve their differences in theology with violence.
5) "Now look at the ARMY of god. ARMY, that is, they see themselves as soldiers - in this case as soldiers fighting for the unborn life......So when these people kill, they don't murder, but they punish people who are themselves murderers - and I don't think that Christian belief is explicitely against the death penalty."
Quote the New Testament verse that says the church is to raise an army to go kill sinners with.
Quote the New Testament verse that says the church is to carry out the death penalty.
Reconcile your above answer with the verses that say it is the state who is to punish evil.
6) So what would be murderers and Non-Christians for some would be fighters for life, god, and righteousness for others.
Quote the New Testament verse that says Christians are to fight (pyhysically) for God.
Reconcile your answer with the statement of Jesus that his kingdom is not of this world and therefore his disciples would not stop Rome from killing him.
7) Which would mean that those terrorists are Christians after all, Christians who don't define their doings as murder, but as judgement.
Quote the New Testament verse that says it is ok for Christians to kill people to judge them.
Reconcile your answer with Jesus's command not to judge others.
8) Moreover you cannot escape the Old Testament - you cannot just put it away like a lump of geasy fat dangling from a tasty steak.
Quote the New Testament verse that says Christians are to follow the Old Covenant ceremonial and civil laws.
Quote the New Testament verse that says Christians are to stone sinners (that was the civil penalty for a lot of sins under the Old Covenant.)
Quote the New Testament verse that lists the ways the church can punish sinners.
9.) Are you the only potential Christian now?
Show me where I said I am the only Christian.
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dimis
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posted August 28, 2009 01:52 AM |
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Just a thought
I really don't know how to characterize this anymore.
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The empty set
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JollyJoker
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posted August 28, 2009 07:19 AM |
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@ Elodin
Your problem is simple: on one hand you claim an absolute moral, on the other you make a difference between killing and murdering. When you define murdering as "killing a known innocent person", it is clear that "killing a known guilty person" is not (murdering).
YOU said that. Now YOU go ahead and say, nowhere in the Bible stands that you can go around and kill known guilty persons.
Moreover you have no problem to characterize the work of a soldier as "killing", no matter what government he's doing it for, provided he truly believes that there's nothing wrong with his government.
On the other hand, you say it's nothing wrong either when a soldier "switches sides" because he suddenly "wakes up" und sees through the wickedness of his government and starts bombing it to bring it down. Here you fail again to give a yardstick where you can "measure" the wickedness in any way - it's up to the persons to decide.
Now let's just try and find the point where it all goes awry:
Your - correct - point is, that according to the teachings of Christ no one should run around and start killing people "in the name of Christ". What that means is, you can be technically a Christian AND a terror bomber (if you bomb and evil government), but not a Christian terror bomber (bombing for Christ).
However, while this sounds halfway reasonable, it's not the end of it, because - as paradox as it sounds - you can be a terrorist BECAUSE you are a Christian: if you indeed see fetusses as babies and real life and so on that you are not allowed to kill (and killing them would be murdering), then you see it this way probably or maybe because you are Christian. If you now - as a Christian - look at the situation and see that this murdering of innocent lives is going on and on and on, you may come to the conclusion, that all those people and the society you live in who does allow it - is rotten to the core, and BECAUSE of that, it's not wrong to act against those, who are lost to eternal damnation anyway, in order to maybe save lives and to fight the rottenness.
I don't say, it's correct - I say it's possible. Human beings are prone to err, and things are not always clear-cut. There can be terror bombers who started out as Christians, took a couple of wrong turns at one point or another and left the right way - but since they don't see it, they still think they are firmly on the right track.
History has proven that these kind of errors are pretty common for humans.
By the way, your last president went into the Iraq war with god on his lips. I don't think Jesus would approve.
Edit (to make things clearer):
You said, I shall show you the quotes in the scripture that...
I don't think I need to. You would have to show me the quotes in the scripture that say what is murder and what is killing, and that it is not wrong to fight against an oppressive government who kills dissidents or invade a country where that happens, while it IS wrong to fight against an oppressive government that sanctions the slaughter of babies.
Moreover and additionally: you can't expect from every person being versed in the scripture, so you just have to cater for those who take their Christianity mainly from the lips of preachers - the way it was EXCLUSIVELY in earlier times. They may come to conslusions due to what those preachers say.
Whether something is "evil terror" or "just war" is pretty much a question of viewpoint, and if you allow "just war" you just have to accept that some Christians may have different ideas about what a just war is. Or can you show me the quote in the scripture that defines it? Note, that this true in both directions: there ARE those Christians who'd say that the Iraq war was NOT a just war - while you would say it was. But can you show me the quote in the scripture that says it WAS a just war? Go ahead and attack thy neighbour if you can find any excuse?
And there are those who say that killing abortion docs is a just war - while you (and most others would say nope).
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Mytical
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posted August 28, 2009 07:42 AM |
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As before part of the question was answered but not all. Prove that one interpretation (which some have called 'truth') is the only one. Since scripture can't be used to do so (many sides use bible scripture to prove they have the only 'correct' interpretation), either it can be proven or not by some other means. Saying "Because I said so" or using such straw arguments as "Just because somebody thinks 2+3=5 (or anything similar) doesn't make it true." doesn't PROVE anything.
Now if there is no proof that one interpretation is better or greater then another, this causes a problem. People who believe that God sanctions death, stoning, etc and call themselves Christian then can not be invalidated by scripture or because one version is more pleasing then another (to most people). Unfortunately those who are so convinced of their 'truth' will just quote or use straw arguments, proving nothing, and expect people to believe it without question.
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baklava
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posted August 28, 2009 12:16 PM |
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Quote:
Recognizing an oppressive government is pretty easy. Does the government do things like murder political dissidents?
I don't know, but this sounds close
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Elodin
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posted August 28, 2009 02:33 PM |
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You said you would answer my questions and yet you went back on that. Of course there are no verses to support your false claims so I knew it would be impossible for you to answer the questions with verses.
Quote:
Your problem is simple: on one hand you claim an absolute moral, on the other you make a difference between killing and murdering. When you define murdering as "killing a known innocent person", it is clear that "killing a known guilty person" is not (murdering).
One of your problems is simple. You quite simply don't know the Bible. You make lots of false claims about what a Christian is and what a Christian can do and you can't back it up.
GOD MAKES A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MURDER AND KILLING JJ, that is why I make a difference. That is said many times in the Bible.
For example, God commanded the execution of certain people who broke the Law in Israel. He said they were to at the hands ot the witnesses after the trial. Another example is God commanded some wars to be fought.
Quote:
Exodus 20:13 (New King James Version)
13 “You shall not murder.
Exodus 21:12 (New King James Version)
“He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.
14 “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.
SEE? God said accidentally killing someone is not the same as murdering them. The murderer was to be killed after a trial.
ALSO, I HAVE REPEATEDLY STATED THAT IT IS THE STATE WHO HAS THE POWER TO EXECUTE EVIL DOERS, NOT INDIVIDUAL CHRISTIANS OR THE CHURCH..I quoted the book of Romans, from chapter 13 where that is clearly stated.
So I don't have a right to kill, torture, or punish someone for their sins and neither does the church.
Quote:
On the other hand, you say it's nothing wrong either when a soldier "switches sides" because he suddenly "wakes up" und sees through the wickedness of his government and starts bombing it to bring it down
I said the people have a right to revolt and overthrow an oppressive government if the government refuses to step down.
Quote:
Your - correct - point is, that according to the teachings of Christ no one should run around and start killing people "in the name of Christ". What that means is, you can be technically a Christian AND a terror bomber...
Untrue. I have stated a number of times a Christian can't be a terrorist.
A Christian can participate in overthrowing an oppressive government like our founding fathers did. That was not terrorism, that was the American Revolution.
Quote:
If you now - as a Christian - look at the situation and see that this murdering of innocent lives is going on and on and on, you may come to the conclusion, that all those people and the society you live in who does allow it - is rotten to the core, and BECAUSE of that, it's not wrong to act against those, who are lost to eternal damnation anyway, in order to maybe save lives and to fight the rottenness.
Untrue. Show the New Testament verse where a Christian is authorized to punish sin. Christians are told to preach to, pray for, and do good to sinners, not to kill them or torture them or punish them for their sin.
NO Christian denomination says killing abortion doctors is ok.
Quote:
As before part of the question was answered but not all. Prove that one interpretation (which some have called 'truth') is the only one. Since scripture can't be used to do so (many sides use bible scripture to prove they have the only 'correct' interpretation), either it can be proven or not by some other means
Most of the Scripture is not so hard to understand as you make it out to be. What is so hard to understand about this?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Quote:
Now if there is no proof that one interpretation is better or greater then another, this causes a problem. People who believe that God sanctions death, stoning, etc and call themselves Christian then can not be invalidated by scripture or because one version is more pleasing then another (to most people).
Show me where the New Testament says to stone anyone. Since you say some people have legitimate interpretations that says Christians are to stone others, prove it. Quote the verse in the New Testament that says the church is to stone anyone or punish any sin in any way beyond disfellowshipping a person who is living in sin while claiming to be a Christian.
Oh, I don't know of any church that claims to be Christian that says the church should stone sinners. Could you point them out?
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted August 28, 2009 02:41 PM |
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Every government is oppressive - like every other form of separation is - there is no good and no evil, these are empty, made up words that everyone is conditioned to take. With words you can prove anything to anyone, now try that with mathematics : ) Words make you a slave...
We are all part of a planet, of a society. We are all in a symbiosis with everything around us - when we stop all this government and money and religion bullsnow and start carrying for one another like reasonable humans and not just stupid apes, than go and ask someone about moral and ethics in killing... a bit strange, right?
"Warriors are good for absolutely nothing, but war." If only every soldier was thought to solve problems instead of killing... and every dogmatist was set to educate and not just spread the virus of religion...
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 29, 2009 06:40 AM |
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Ok, time to get somethings cleared up which are bothering me. Now, I know that some here will say "You are taking things out of context." but I could argue the same about those people. Therein lies the problem. One persons understanding of scripture can be different from another, thus using scripture to prove somebody is 'not a christian' automatically fails.
"Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death” (Ex. 21:17)
For cursing at his mother and father?
“But in the cities of those nations which the LORD, your God, is giving you as your heritage, you shall not leave a single soul alive” (Deut. 20:16)
Jerico ring a bell?
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
Now before the 'Old Covenant' vs 'New Covenant' debate rears it's head..
It is only SOME people's interpretation that the Old Covenant should be ignored (yes that is what some have said...basically "Ignore the parts of the bible you don't like."), I submit to you that either ALL the bible is taken into consideration or NONE of it should be. I respect Christians beliefs, and their right to believe what they wish "AN IT HARM NONE." It is fallicious to use scripture to say that somebody who claims to be Christian is not.
Do I think those who kill in the name of Christ (or any other reason) are Christians. No. Not because it does say "Thou Shalt not KILL. However! It is GOD who should pass judgement, not other Christians.
Religion, or the absense of it neither are to blame for killing. Those are PEOPLE, and PEOPLE can be very misguided.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted August 29, 2009 07:41 AM |
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Quote:
It is only SOME people's interpretation that the Old Covenant should be ignored (yes that is what some have said...basically "Ignore the parts of the bible you don't like."), I submit to you that either ALL the bible is taken into consideration or NONE of it should be.
No, there are two differnt covenants. The Old Covenant was valid until Jesus died. Now it is old. No longer in effect. The only covenant in effect is the New Covenant. One old, one new.
The Old Covenant was with the nation of Israel. The New Covenant is with the church, which is not a physical nation.
Under the Old Covenant there wre animals sacrifices, food laws, various holy days and such. There are no such things under the New Covenant.
The writings that govern the New Covenant are the New Testament (New Covenant) writings.
Jesus fulfilled (completed) the Old Covenant with his death. He was the final sacrifice for sin. With his resurrection and outpouring of his Spirit began the New Covenant. The church was born on the day of Pentecost when Jesus began to pour out his Spirit. That was the beginning of the New Covenant, as the Old Covenant prophets had prophesied.
So if you want to claim this or that about the church (Christianity) you have to appeal to the Christian writings. The New Covenant writings.
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 29, 2009 08:12 AM |
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Which is one interpretation, but there are many others. Which is what I said. What makes out interpretation > then another?
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Elodin
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posted August 29, 2009 11:44 AM |
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Which is one interpretation, but there are many others. Which is what I said. What makes out interpretation > then another?
I'm sorry, but everything is not "just an interpretation." If I pick up a pebble it is a pebble. You can't call it a car and say to me that saying it is a pebble is just an interpretation.
What makes my "interpretation" correct is that it is backed up by the Bible.
The Old Covenant prophets said the Old Covenant would be completely replaced. For instance:
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Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Now, is that not clear that the new covenant is not the same as the old covenant?
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Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
See? Christians are not under the Mosaic Law (the Old Covenant.)
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Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
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2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
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Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
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Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
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Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
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Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
The Old Covenant was never intended to be permanent. It was only to be in place until Christ died for our sins.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 29, 2009 12:08 PM |
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As I expected, the old "We are right, everybody else is wrong". Which is one of the major problems with Organized religions, especially with organized religions that have many different versions.
Ask the Catholics about the Bible you get one answer. Their version is the only correct version (according to them), and everybody else is wrong.
Ask the Protestants about the Bible and you get another answer. Their version is the only correct version (according to them), and everybody else is wrong. And Protestants and Catholics have fought with and killed each other over this.
Ask the Mormons, Jewish people (they believe in the 'christian god' just not Christ), and the list goes on and on and on. Each has their own version (some claim hell is not an actual place, some don't believe in Christ, some believe that John Smith is the actual voice of god, etc etc). They swear up and down that their version is the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH, and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
When asked why their version is better then anybody elses, they can't actually answer. They quote scripture, they use claims such as "Just because somebody else believes 'x' doesn't make it true."
Which is fine, they are entitled to believe whatever they want.
Some even actually acknowledge the fact that other versions are just as legitimate, and that the reason they follow their version is because they like that version better.
Elodin, you have honestly failed to prove anything. That is not an insult (just in case), but an observation. Just because you SAY something is the truth, does not make it so. Nor does your interpretation of select bible quotes.
Good honest people have said (to others who use selective quotes) "You are taking it out of context." when people bring up certain quotes (like I have in another thread). WE (the people here) do not know if you are taking the quotes out of context or not. WE (the people here) do not believe in your bible, nor your 'TRUTH'. To US you might as well be saying "The Sky is purple, because Jimbob said so." Please provide some PROOF (other then scripture) that your version is any better (and more correct) then any of the others. Or if not (which I believe is the case) at least recognize that there ARE different ways to interpret the scriptures.
Because if not, then there would be only ONE religion for Christianity. Catholic, Babtist, Protestant, etc would NOT exsist.
Since there IS more then one Christian religion, that means that the scripture is open to interpretation. Which means that those people who interpret it to say that they should "Smote the heads of their enemies" (IE kill in the name of Christ) are just as correct as those who believe in peace and good will. Which means that Killers can be Christian. Follow the logic.
Or..state that the other Christian religions are False. Keep to quoting select scriptures, and ignore everything else.
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Message received.
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