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Darkshadow
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posted August 02, 2009 09:07 PM |
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You cannot war against a tactic.
"terrorism" is not a tactic 
Guerrilla warfare that the terrorist are waging is a tactic, and it can be countered, but the US didn't have the balls to counter it.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted August 02, 2009 09:21 PM |
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I am not sure what you thought but by the mongolian way I meant killing everyone 
Do you think, for example, Russia will just stay by and watch?
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Darkshadow
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posted August 02, 2009 09:24 PM |
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If it "benefits" Russia, then sure.
You don't think when doing that kind of stuff a country would be stupid?
And I think the US would be more worried about violating all those treaties they have than what russia would say
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TheDeath
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posted August 02, 2009 09:26 PM |
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My question was more like, do you think Russia won't take advantage of the situation?
But then the treaties don't mean anything without being enforced, and I don't think France & Britain are that desperate. The others have enough problems as it is (with Israel probably even joining the US...)
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Darkshadow
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posted August 02, 2009 09:34 PM |
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do you think Russia won't take advantage of the situation?
I was imagining they would be more like "Hey!Can we kill some too?".
Terrorists have striken Russia too, you know.
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but then the treaties don't mean anything without being enforced, and I don't think France & Britain are that desperate.
Huh?
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted August 02, 2009 09:39 PM |
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I was imagining they would be more like "Hey!Can we kill some too?".
Terrorists have striken Russia too, you know.
Why would they be stupid? Why not just America do it by itself, possibly weakening itself in the process? Even if terrorists have striken Russia too.
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but then the treaties don't mean anything without being enforced, and I don't think France & Britain are that desperate.
Huh?
Alright. Let me explain it different. So what if it breaks the treaties. Who's gonna stop it?
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Darkshadow
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posted August 02, 2009 09:41 PM |
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Oh yeah, I forgot that Russia still considers the US a bitter enemy.
And alot of those treaties originate to US, so wouldn't it be shameful that a country that put a start on those treaties violates them.
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TheDeath
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posted August 02, 2009 09:44 PM |
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I think "shame" and "honor" have lost the meaning at the Mongolian suggestion
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Elodin
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posted August 03, 2009 01:25 AM |
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That doesn't change the facts, which are that the United States invaded Iraq, fought the Iraqi army, and toppled its sovereign government.
Yes, the US toppled the soverign terrorist dictator and mass murderer Saddam who sponsored terrorism around the world, had invvaded other countries in the past, had used WMDs in the past, and who refused to abide by the terms of surrender from the previous war.
Taking out Saddam was a major move in combating terrorism. 9/11 gave the US the willpower to do more to combat terrorism and helped keep America safe from furthur such terrorist attacks.
@ blizzardboy
Errrrr the US helping people resist Soviet takeover of Afghanistan was not supporting terrorism.
Clicky for Saddam links to terrorism.
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The terrorists of the world are delighted by the occupation of Iraq. Their numbers have bolstered from the hatred that resulted from it, and the U.S. is ultimately fighting a war that it is incapable of winning.
No, I don't think so. They have been quite busy defending themselves instead of killing Americans on American soil.
Oh, so the US is already defeated? It should just accept more and more murdered Americans?
You claim the war on terror has weakened natinoal security and yet it seems to have prevented more attacks on US soil.
But Obama is giving terrorists Dream Team lawyers paid for by taxpayers (millions upon millions of dollars) and giving terrorists milk and cookies to try to persuade them to give information to save American lifes. I do not think milk and cookie interrogation will find success.
Lol the US is even having to read terrorists captured on the battlefield Miranda rights. Heh.
Clicky
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According to Congressman Mike Rogers — who serves on the House Intelligence Committee — the Obama administration is now requiring FBI agents to read Miranda rights to captured terrorists. This is a complete 180-degree turn from previous statements made by the president recently on "60 Minutes:"
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Darkshadow
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posted August 03, 2009 08:16 AM |
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But Obama is giving terrorists Dream Team lawyers paid for by taxpayers (millions upon millions of dollars) and giving terrorists milk and cookies to try to persuade them to give information to save American lifes. I do not think milk and cookie interrogation will find success.
I find it sad...
It seems alot of americans now expect terrorist attacks around the clock
You can let the interrogators do whatever they want, the terrorist's won't give any info.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 03, 2009 08:47 AM |
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It's not that they won't give any info.
Everyone can be pressured into saying anything. That's just where the problem begins, they will say anything you want to hear.
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Elodin
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posted August 03, 2009 09:16 AM |
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@DarkShadow
I believe the changes Obama made made America less safe. And yes, I do think there will be terrorist attacks on US soil as a result.
You are confusing what waterboarding was used for. It was not used to obtain a confession but to obtain information. And it had success. A 9/11 style plot was prevented that was meant for the east coast of the US for example.
Torture is not effective in obtaining confessions but is effective in obtaining information.
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Darkshadow
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posted August 03, 2009 09:22 AM |
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@DarkShadow
I believe the changes Obama made made America less safe. And yes, I do think there will be terrorist attacks on US soil as a result.
You are confusing what waterboarding was used for. It was not used to obtain a confession but to obtain information. And it had success. A 9/11 style plot was prevented that was meant for the east coast of the US for example.
Torture is not effective in obtaining confessions but is effective in obtaining information.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" - Benjamin Franklin
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mvassilev
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posted August 03, 2009 07:10 PM |
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blizzardboy
Honorable
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posted August 03, 2009 07:27 PM |
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@Shadow: Yeah man. You went off on a tangent about committing mass murder in Iraq, and then you slapped down that famous Ben Franklin quote. It totally destroyed your villain vibe.
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@Elodin:
There haven't been any attacks on American soil, but that's really hazy evidence of the effectiveness of invading Iraq. There were hardly any major attacks on American soil before 9/11 since WWII, and Pearl Harbor was perpetrated by another nation, not a faction. Frankly, we were lucky it took as long as it did for a big attack to occur because we've been asking for it for a long time. Just look at Iran. We couped the Iranian Shah in 1953 (who was elected by popular vote) and yet we wonder why Iran is sore towards us. Maybe if the CIA stopped molesting them they wouldn't be that way?
You need to consider how you would feel if they did to us what the U.S. did to them. If Iran were a bigger and stronger country, and they couped our leader, without a doubt, there would have been widespread outrage in the nation. The U.S. is directly responsible for the Iranian government of today. Or do you truly believe that they are upset without any reason for it? Anger rarely forms out of thin air. Why weren't Islamic militants terrorizing the U.S. in the late 1700s? Or 1800s? Or early 20th century? Why now?
Setting aside any of this, the U.S. is broke and then some. It borrowed billions from China to pay for the Iraq war, and we have no clue how we're going to pay it back. I suppose it's small compared to the suicidal bail-outs, but it's by no means small enough to set aside. What's your plan for paying for any of this?
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Elodin
Promising
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posted August 03, 2009 07:41 PM |
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" - Benjamin Franklin
That is nice and all, but somehow I don't think Old Ben thought that meant terrorists should be allowed to make a mockeery of our justice system.
Old Ben was talking about living under oppression instead of revolting. There was security in not rocking the boat. Just keep on being dominated by "the Motherland" and all would be relatively secure. That was intollerable for the founders who wanted full liberty, not a sham.
When the founding fathers captured about 50 Islamic pirates who were terrorizing American ships they executed all but one and sent the survivor back to tell the rest what would happen if they continued. American ships wwere no longer targeted until Obama took office.
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Darkshadow
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posted August 03, 2009 07:46 PM |
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I was mainly talking about the US here, which is not my ideal Fascist paradise and seems to place it's "liberties and rights" (add a sarcastic voice there) over everything else.And Ben's point is true, if you want good security then you will lose all liberty.
Elo, that wouldn't work in the modern day.
Let's say my troops board a ship captured by the pirates, the pirates surrender and I give my troops the order to execute all but one in the most brutal ways, then id send the survivor tell the others what happens if they board my ships again...Well guess what, all that is going to do is to stir up a massive human rights protests (I would shoot those aswell but let's not go there...) and usually also hate from countries with the religion the pirates were.And it would also make the pirates more aggressive toward my ships.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 03, 2009 07:58 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 20:00, 03 Aug 2009.
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American ships wwere no longer targeted until Obama took office.
The U.S.S. Cole was attacked in 2000, under President Clinton. The U.S.S. The Sullivans was also targeted in 2000 but unsuccessfully.
Your arguments would be much more convincing if you bothered to get your facts straight.
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Elodin
Promising
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posted August 03, 2009 08:00 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:10, 03 Aug 2009.
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@blizzardboy
Oh please. If the US had not gone to war on terror there would have been more attacks on US soil.
I really can't believe you are saying the US got what was coming to it on 9/11. You been listening to Obama's pastor of 20 years, Rev Wright?
The radical Islamics say all must convert to Islam or die. Or live under Sharia law as virtual slaves and pay tribute to them. Their will be war on terror from now on or you will live or die under their rules.
If the US is broke why is Obama making the US pay for abortions and condoms around the world? Why is he making taxpayers pay large sums ($4-5,000 per car) for people with old cars to buy new ones? Why so many pork projects in the "stimulus" package when Obama vowed to veto any bill with earmarks? He lied, didn't he?
Meanwhile he takes over the banks, major automobile industry, insurance companies, and soon the health industry. People don't learn from history it seems.
Yet you complain about money spent on war on terror to keep America safe? Perhaps America should forget about going down failed socialism road and let people keep more money of what they make.
Don't look at me for how Obama is going to pay for his radical left socialist agenda. But I can tell you how he will do it. Tax. Tax. Taxtaxtaxtaxtax. He lied to you during the campaign. Your taxes will soon be very very very high. Welcome to what Marxism brings. We will see if you like the taste.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLry3ABpV0
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Your arguments would be much more convincing if you bothered to get your facts straight
Actually the context of my statement makes it clear I was talking about the pirates not targeting the US vessels.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 17, 2009 09:10 AM |
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IMHO. All war is immoral as major religions and even common moral frameworks say that killing is a bad thing. Even bad in self defense (though far, far less bad). Some adherents believe you can be redeemed, others say you must pay in some way in the afterlife.
However, war can be ethical. Ethical wars are conducted by following all treaties and rules of engagement your nation is subject to.
Civilian deaths are more tragic than military deaths, mostly because they civilians did not ask to be placed in front of weapons while the soldiers willingly volunteered their bodies. Some would call it a noble sacrifice, some would call it stupidity, others... just want to go on living.
By many accounts, Saddam claimed he had WMDs because he was using them as a fear tactic because he was worried Iran would invade. Iran is primarily Shi-ite, as is a large amount of the population of Iraq, and wants (or wanted at one point) as many Islamic majority nations to have fundamentalist government. But Iraq had a minority Sunni run secular government. Saddam didn't want the Iranians to invade a second time and perhaps that time successfully rouse the Shi-ite majority to help them. Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden hated Saddam for his strictly secular government. They would have been all over him like an ice cream cone in the desert if he were running an Islamic government. Even Rumsfeld eventually admitted there was little to no evidence of a connection between Al-Qaeda and Iraq.
[url=http://hammeringsparksfromtheanvil.blogspot.com/2008/01/60-minutes-watch-saddam-husseins-friend.html]What was Saddam's opinion of Osama Bin Laden?[/url]
"He considered him to be a fanatic. And as such was very wary of him. He told me, 'You can't really trust fanatics,'" Piro says.
(This is after he was tortured no less.)
Yes, Saddam was a bad person, yes he played the US for suckers and gassed the Iranians with American weapons and used the leftovers on Nationalist Kurds, yes he did sponsor Palestinian suicide bombers, yes he deserved extreme punishment. But in the case of Iraq it's of my opinion (and most of the free world) that the war was started for all of the wrong reasons. America has fought many just wars for legitimate reasons, but it has also fought several questionable wars using questionable methods. Being more of a middle-ground an/protagonist. No country is perfect, but we need to make sure that every war is done with more thought put into them. We can't just bomb neutral countries and call it a day or invade when we're not wanted.
It's all playing to the hands of corrupt politicians. Each time we "vote the bums out of office" we just vote in the bums who ripped us off the last time.
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