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| Thread: What does the code of conduct mean to you? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 30, 2009 02:01 AM |
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What does the code of conduct mean to you?
I was reading the rather jejune "Im going racist" thread and noticed that xerdux recently began a post with the following remarkably eloquent words: "snow off lexxan". I'm thinking all that was missing from this churlish and infantile remark was a crude ascii rendition of an extended middle digit.
Granted, lexxan sort of earned this rebuke, given his own mocking post, but might I ask: haven't we taken this snow nonsense a little too far, and, furthermore, haven't we perhaps forgotten the spirit of the code of conduct when we bypass it in this way?
Really, to me, the code of conduct exists to make this a friendly environment for everyone. Some would say that the prohibition of foul language is an impingement of their right to free speech. Others would argue that it is necessary to maintain a "family environment" - in other words, to protect the precious virgin ears of our youth from words they no doubt use all the time anyway.
Both arguments are equally ridiculous.
I'd say the prohibition of foul language is to reduce the quantity (and severity) of inflammatory posts, and to enhance the quality of the HC experience for everyone. Nobody wants to visit a board saturated with obscenities and insults. At least, I certainly don't.
As a result, I'd like to opine that while using a long chain of asterisks or the banal "snow" in place of forbidden words might technically comply with the rules laid out in the code of conduct, in doing so, you're violating the COC's spirit.
So the next time your write something as idiotically unclever as "snow off", ask yourself if that's really helping to create the sort of atmosphere YOU want around here. More importantly, ask yourself what the code of conduct means to you personally. Is it a set of rules that you see only as a restriction of your actions in this place, a code of laws that you cannot violate without punitive retribution but that you can get around via the discovery of creative loopholes? Or is it a formula for a community characterized by civil, amicable discourse on a topic we all share a love for, a group of general guidelines that you not only must follow, but, more importantly, that you should want to follow, because to do so is to the benefit of our community?
Is it a matter of compulsion, or is it a matter of respect and honor?
Perhaps that's a rhetorical question, and no discussion here is necessary. It is a question that you can – and should – ask about laws and morals in general, but I submit that if you understand why the laws of a community exist, and evaluate what they mean to you and your place in that community, perhaps you'll start to follow them without even thinking about it. Because at that point you'll know in your heart that you're doing the right thing, regardless of if and where it is written down.
Anyway, it’s just a thought.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted July 30, 2009 02:49 AM |
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Well it's kinda obvious in the CoC Corribus:Quote:
2) NO bad language, profanity, vulgarity or swearing.
Correctly censored vulgar words may be used, but not for insults, abuse, racism, sexism, provocation or aggravation.
Correct censoring means replacing all letters in the vulgar words with asterisks by holding the SHIFT key and pressing the number 8 key (US keyboards). For example: when **** hit the fan. Any other method of censoring vulgar words partially or entirely will be considered incorrect censoring and may be penalized. Actual or misspelled vulgar words will be penalized immediately.
Our aim is to keep Heroes Community children and family friendly. Instead of blurting out vulgarity, take it as a creative challenge to find alternative words to express strong emotions.
So where someone says "snow off" in a jokingly manner like Death did once in VW I think it is perfectly acceptable, it was a joke after all. But otherwise it could be considered a direct insult, and thus penalized.
My 2 cents anyway.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 30, 2009 03:09 AM |
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In all honesty, it does not matter much if it is meant as a jest (unless something like (j/k) or something is in the post). That is also only one part of the CoC. Here is my take on it.
We all have rules we live by. Regardless if it is a speed limit or not to commit mass murder. While I don't advocate blind obediance (to anything) most laws are there for a reason. If everybody stopped obeying the laws 'just because' the world would be a much worse place. So I believe that unless there is a rule like "You must commit murder everyday." or similar then the rules should be followed. There is an element of common sense involved.
If you can't argue, discuss, or whatever you call it with somebody with out attacking them personally then you probably have nothing useful to add to the conversation. Note there is a difference between "I dissagree with poster X because.." and "Poster X is an idiot." I've said it before..not WHAT you say but HOW you say it.
The rules of the CoC are not outrageous, or hard to follow. It doesn't say you can't speak your mind, but speak your mind in a civilized manner.
Name calling is something kids in kindergarden do. Hopefully we are a bit more mature then that.
Now as for 'cursing'. Some people do use it in everyday conversation. However, it is not like you don't have time to compose your thoughts and write out a normal conversation. You stub your toe, and say a curse word..that is understandable. When there is no 'startle' response and you have all the time in the world to find better ways to express yourself there really is no excuse.
So to me the CoC is rules that we should abide by. Not only because it is not unreasonable, but also because they make the atmosphere of the place better.
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Message received.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 30, 2009 03:42 AM |
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@Asheera
Jokes are one thing. But my point is this: if you're using the phrase "snow off" in place of the phrase... well, you know... the reason you are doing so is because you know that the latter phrase is not allowed. You're certainly not fooling anyone by writing "snow off". The meaning is the same. The intent is the same. So what's the difference? You're getting off on a technicality. If the rule-writers ban the word "snow", you can use the word "tractor" instead. If they ban the word "tractor", you can use the word "jelly bean". And so on.
You can always come up with clever ways to get around the rules, in life as well as on HC. But why would you want to do this? The point of my post was not to castigate those who use foul language - or benign language as a placeholder for foul language. I wanted to ask the broader question of what the code of conduct means to you. (I don't necessarily mean you, Asheera, I mean everyone.) Because people who are looking for ways to safely violate its basic rules obviously haven't thought about this question very much.
Sigh. I suspect most people will misunderstand what I'm getting at. I find myself stumbling over the best way to express it.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2009 04:03 AM |
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The Code of Conduct is exactly what it says on the tin - the code of conduct. According to dictionary.com, code means "a systematically arranged collection or compendium of laws, rules, or regulations". Conduct means "personal behaviour; way of acting; bearing or deportment". So "Code of Conduct" means "a systematically arranged collection of regulations of personal behaviour". That much should be fairly obvious.
What's it for? It's to keep posters from posting brain-dead **** - insults, racism, sexism, etc. Note that it doesn't forbid them from being disagreeable - it merely stops them from writing anything an angry five-year old would write.
What does it mean?
1) NO insults, abuse, racism or sexism - self-explanatory.
2) NO bad language, profanity, vulgarity or swearing - also quite self-explanatory. (Side note: with the introduction of "snow" as a catch-all profanity, what does "Blizzard" mean now?  )
3) NO pornography, illegal software, warez, hacks, cracks, keygens or related discussion - anyone remotely familiar with the subject knows what's legal and what isn't. Quite clear.
4) NO spam, junk posts, thread killing, flooding or flaming - here we get into slightly murkier territory. Nevertheless, the CoC defines these terms quite clearly.
5) NO discrimination against newcomers or inexperienced players - again, not that hard to understand.
6) NO provocation or aggravation - now this one is much less cut-and-dry. According to the CoC, "provocation is unfriendly behaviour that causes anger or resentment from others", and "aggravation is causing, continuing or increasing irritation or trouble". Very vague. Unfriendly in whose eyes? What's unfriendly to one person may seem okay to another. Anger and resentment - that's also subjective. If we were to take William, who admits to being the "angriest HC member", as our measuring stick, the umbrella of "provocation" would be rather wide. On the other hand, some members never seem to show much anger. I believe the key word here is "unfriendly" - if a member does not intend something to be hostile, it should not be treated as such (provided that it doesn't break any of the other rules, of course).
7) NO moneymaking schemes or unauthorised advertising - seems simple, doesn't it? But if one were to take this literally, we wouldn't be able to link to any other web site, as it would be advertising. So this rule is generally understood to mean that we should do it blatantly.
What does it mean to me? Unfortunately, I have to say that my years at HC have made me rather cynical about it. Unfriendly behaviour has been tolerated quite a lot (just look at the events that lead to my Stop Elitism thread, or things people post when they're angry, etc). And sometimes mods have acted too harshly. My experience has been this: if you post something like, "**** off, you **** stupid piece of ****!", you'll get modded. If you post within the explicit confines of the CoC, it depends on what kind of posters are currently being persecuted - first it was spammers, then tossers, and now it seems to be active OSMers. It also depends on the mod in question. Some of them are nice and keep the peace, while others just add fuel to the fire.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 30, 2009 05:14 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 05:18, 30 Jul 2009.
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Moderators, despite what it may appear like, would rather be relaxed and just having fun. We are human after all. Nor do we single out people, just their posting style. We'd rather have fun contests, friendly debates, and only give out +qp! I for one loathe giving out -qp (of course I will, but I would rather not have to ). We try our best to be friendly and give people some room, but when it gets to much..yeah we sometimes have to get heavy handed. It seems some people only understand us when we get that way.
We have a job to do, however, and that is try to keep peace on the forums. If the majority have trouble with 'quote wars', we try to talk to the people doing the quote wars to get it calmed down first. If that doesn't work, we post a general comment about it. If THAT doesn't work, we get more specific..and then we have to let people know that it has to stop. We would prefer it it never got past the talking to the people involved via HCM.
We are Moderators first, members second. We would prefer being members first and Moderators second, but we signed up for this. To try to help the community. To strive to make it a better, funner place for all.
The CoC is our 'laws', and we are the 'law enforcement'. We strive to do everything in the CoC, but even we fall short sometime. We understand when somebody else falls short also. We give a friendly warning first, because we have been there. Don't look at the CoC and say "Well that is just trying to limit what I can do, I'll just find away around it." or think you are above the 'rules' for whatever reason. Look at it and think.."Hey these aren't so bad." Because they really are not.
Edit : Most of the people here that seem to have a problem staying in the CoC are the ones who have been here awhile and should know better. Maybe they think. Hey I have been here years, these don't apply to me. They do, they apply to everybody. No offense to Val, but if he came in here throwing insults around, using curse words like crazy, etc..I might not be able to 'penalize' him, but don't think for a second he wouldn't get a piece of my mind .
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Message received.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 30, 2009 05:33 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 05:37, 30 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
Don't look at the CoC and say "Well that is just trying to limit what I can do, I'll just find away around it." or think you are above the 'rules' for whatever reason.
This is sort of what I was driving at.
I guess for me the code of conduct isn't a set of restrictive rules. It's sort of like an honor code. Its real aim is to set the spirit of congeniality a community is supposed to be about. And when I see attempts to get around that code via loopholes, it seems to me more a violation of the spirit of the code than a violation of any single rule in the code itself.
Meh, what do I know? I just found the usage of the phrase "snow off" annoying for some reason and I'm trying to explain why.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 30, 2009 05:47 AM |
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Believe me Corribus, I fully understand the 'frustration' of not being able to convey what I am thinking. My chaotic mind often has no clue how to translate to 'normal'. 
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Message received.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2009 05:54 AM |
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It would be nice if we could do that, but unfortunately it results in people thinking that the CoC means whatever they want it to mean. "I insulted a noob? Big deal. He needs to toughen up. It's for his own good, so it's not really against the spirit of the CoC." "That guy is refusing to change his discussion style? It may be non-insulting, but obviously he's trying to provoke people. I'll just threaten to silence him. Yeah, that's the trick..." "Hey, if you click on my article, I get money!" And so on.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted July 30, 2009 05:57 AM |
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In law it's called the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. In US law (and probably most other places) a judge is required to consider both.
In a perfect world there would be no need for laws. And in a perfect HC there would be no need for the COC. And even in a realistic world or realistic HC, most people don't need the written rules.
Of course everyone has their own ideas about what is civil or acceptable behavior. Sure, those ideas can vary a lot. But most people will naturally stay within reasonable boundaries most of the time. And most people will get upset and go beyond those boundaries some of the time.
I always view the spirit of the law as more important than the letter of the law. The letter of the law is something to fall back on when common sense fails.
As it applies to HC, Val has always given HC great leeway in deciding it's own direction....within certain broad boundaries. The spirit of the COC should be common sense, but the COC formalizes certain aspects.
I think the mods should be allowed to use their discretion in applying the broad spirit of the law. If the rules are non-existent, or too broad, the results can get chaotic. If the rules are too narrow, it stifles the board and makes it rigid. I see the job of the mods as finding a balance between the two.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 30, 2009 05:58 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 05:59, 30 Jul 2009.
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That was the point of the OP, people trying to get 'around' the CoC. Yes we mods have to make judgement calls, and I am not saying we are always right. If somebody doesn't like our rulings, or something in the CoC they can always get a petition going, submit it to Val and try to change things. Hopefully for the better.
Edit : And it is harder to find a balance then it appears, but we do a decent job overall.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted July 30, 2009 06:03 AM |
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True, the mods won't always be right (assumming there is even such a thing as right). The way I see it, it has to be that way. If there is no "human touch", including human error, the alternative is a very extensive and rigid set of rules which are highly confining.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2009 06:53 AM |
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Personally, I would prefer a set of concrete rules that everyone has to respect and the mods have to enforce - but not step beyond it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2009 08:38 AM |
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I will say this: if people would keep to the SPIRIT of the CoC we wouldn't need a CoC in the first place.
Moreover, not all people agree with all aspects of the CoC - I generally dislike censoring speech as such, forbidding certain words. Forbidding words only acknowledges the "vulgarity" of a word. "You are a piece of ****", however, isn't any worse than "You are a bag of excrements".
The words are not to blame for anything, it's the posters who use them. Words are not vulgar - it's attitudes that make them so, because people may think of it as vulgar. If a society has a problem with sexuality, for example, all or many words in connection with that - names for activities, body parts and so on - will be vulgarized by attitude. They are not vulgar by itself. You can easily see that in connection with neutral field, let's say food. There are a lot of words for food that tastes bad, is bad or is considered bad, but they are not seen vulgar. "Eat grub!" isn't really offensive, except if someone would see grub the way "snow" is seen at the moment.
Think a bit about why it's perfectly okay to say "what a killer!" to express that something is overwhelming in a positive sense, but as far as I know language you can't express the same by using a short word for orgasm. "What a comer!", or something like that.
So what is considered "vulgar", is more or less evidence for the shortcomings within a given society, and forbiddig these words doesn't do anything to de-vulgarize them.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 30, 2009 02:23 PM |
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I entirely agree with everything in the CoC, but...
Give me my B****** back! I don't mean BS, I mean my illegitimate offspring! I find that to be a very affectionate word (as in the term "magnificent *******"), no one is going to have heartache over it. I understand all other words, because they only have one meaning or use, but ******* means different things and its use is more positive than negative anyway!
I always TRY to adhere to the CoC, except for that word...
I mean, if we're censoring the b-word, then why haven't we censored other words that are more offensive and have only one purpose, like idiot or retard?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 30, 2009 04:43 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 16:55, 30 Jul 2009.
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I for one don't think much for CoC. I get round it by ways and even get away with breaking it directly because the mods like me.
And censoring words has gone too far in HC for ages. Censoring bastard and bitch limit creative writing unnecessarily.
Well I don't care much for any rules or laws either so...
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 30, 2009 05:20 PM |
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Remind me how you survive in the army?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted July 30, 2009 06:05 PM |
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I have nothing much to say except that I agree with Dagoth.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 30, 2009 06:10 PM |
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Quote:
"You are a piece of ****", however, isn't any worse than "You are a bag of excrements".
I disagree. "****" is considered to be offensive. "Excrement" isn't.
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Eccentric Opinion
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted July 30, 2009 06:13 PM |
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Edited by william at 18:14, 30 Jul 2009.
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Yeah, I agree. Excrement isn't offensive. Now this has also been mentioned before, but what about the word "crap"? Why is this uncensored but the word "****" is censored when it basically means the same thing? While one may be less offensive than the other, they still are classifed as offensive. If I called some stranger "a piece of crap" then I'm pretty sure they'd find it offensive and might land me with a punch in the face. I just don't understand why crap is uncensored.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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