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| Thread: To Corribus, On Proofreading | |
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted August 05, 2009 05:54 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 20:33, 01 Sep 2009.
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To Corribus, On Proofreading
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One of the reasons I like visiting on-line forums and reading other viewpoints is because it's a great, non-random, anonymous way to test my own beliefs. The best way to feel confident in one's beliefs is to constantly evaluate them to make sure there aren't better ones around the corner. How better to do this than putting one’s beliefs up against other beliefs that are out there and seeing which one shines brighter? A belief has more value when it is battle tested. Because belief motion is influenced by people we interact with and because our conditioning biases what people we're likely to expose ourselves to, our real life does not often offer good opportunities to explore our beliefs and gain enlightenment. The internet forum offers a unique opportunity for exposure to random beliefs not biased by our own conditioning or social circles, and which are also not biased by the presence of potentially disingenuous authority figures or friends/family members that we're afraid to offend or disagree with. You people reading this are "random people" who have a lot of unique ideas about a number of topics that I find interesting. This exposure is mostly anonymous, and I know that the viewpoints I will encounter here are essentially random. I don't come here for the sole purpose of entertainment. I come here to prove that my opinion is right, but I'm not trying to prove it to you. I'm trying to prove it to myself. Through discussion with you, I find myself thinking about my beliefs in new ways, sort of like having someone proofread a manuscript because I know they will catch problems I'll never see, and though it may not come across the screen, I find myself tweaking my beliefs a lot in response to your challenges, your ideas, and your beliefs. Or at least, reinforcing my beliefs with the knowledge they've survived the battle. For that, I am grateful. I only wish that everyone here had the same motivation, but I get the feeling some people, particularly these days, only come around to compare penis sizes and prove to everyone else how enlightened they think they are.
Is there a belief of yours that has been tweaked on HC?
I got a few.
I admit I’ve been less of an antitheist since a person I respect wrote he hears voices something that got me interested in the nature and history of human spirituality. Similarly, I like to think I see where Republinuts are coming from. Before this has-been kills me off with his shotgun, let me tell you how surprised I was when I first learned his political views - because I was sure such a great guy must be a socialist like me. Oh yeah, I’m a pinko. Have I told you that? I guess not, but it makes sense, doesn’t it? What about being Christian and a commie? That’s a new one. Although he can be a pain in the neck, this other guy has taught me to always try to keep an open mind. There are others who prefer writing between the lines. A dishpig-turned-teacher who, like every good guru would, reminds you to watch your breathing... Or an elf who speaks volumes by being silent when everybody else is yelling. Others, like this lady-killer, are more straightforward... until they come out and you realize you know nothing. I wish he dropped by more than once a year though. And finally there was this lady who changed my views on porn. Beat that! 
One could argue a lot of my manuscripts needed proofreading, but it only seems so. Because it’s not that I’ve rewritten mine – it’s more like I got to read others. It’s like those illusions, you know? Is it a vase or two faces? Well, it’s both.
Sure, I know lots of people like them in the real world, but the folks here have one more advantage - they have not been handpicked by me. They are not harmless.
And don’t dis them ‘cause they’re young. The average age plummeted here shortly after H5, but before you can say "Astral Wizard" – these kids will leave in you in a cloud of dust. And man, do they grow fast – from spammers to mods between two expansion packs.
HC has been my "home on the Internet" for six years now. I am aware it could have been any other site... but it wasn’t. And I’m grateful, tonight, for all the proofreading.
Oh, and mine is bigger.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 05, 2009 06:30 AM |
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Back when I first started posting in the OSM, I could have been described as a follower of the philosophy of Max Stirner. Then Bak said, "With several billion people thinking that way, we have a problem." And so eventually my philosophical journey lead me to where I am now. I would like to thank Corribus for providing me with a through backing in his posts about the scientific method. And, of course, Death - who helped me develop my philosophy through debate (though rarely has he convinced me that he's right  - although he's influenced my thoughts on education).
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 05, 2009 01:36 PM |
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HC has certainly influenced me though to this day I have not been very involved with osm discussions. I enjoy a good conversation as much as anyone but I prefer to keep things fun and only occasionally engage in them. Of course hcms and msn are another story. But you can find little gems almost everywhere, many insights to be found here and there. Not just ideas but general attitudes, learning to get along with people is of paramount importance.
Proving yourself right is a waste of time, the other may not even be listening. And suppose you do, congratulations you earned a cookie. Interaction is what makes it worth your time, become receptive to certain notions, give the other something to think about. Besides this is as Vlaad said our home on the internet, we do want to keep things friendly as well as interesting. It is a place of growth, while it may often look stationary the people in it learn new things, evolve. I've often caught myself thinking 'Is that our X? Way to go mate.'
And since this is a place of multiple influences I have come to understand how much impact your actions can have even there are no immediate tangible results. Subconsciously or not they leave a mark, hopefully a positive one  I'd like to think that mine have been beneficial even if I disappointed a few people along the way. Over time I have come to appreciate many people as I got to know them better and of course the parts of the puzzle they have unlocked for me. I used to be staring outside the window than participate but this is not the way to go.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 05, 2009 03:50 PM |
bonus applied by pandora on 01 Sep 2009. |
Edited by Corribus at 15:52, 05 Aug 2009.
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Well Vlaad, I can't give you any specific instance where I was having a discussion with someone about some topic, we disagreed, they gave a good argument in support of their position, and I as a result changed my own opinion.
I think it is much more subtle than that.
I guess what I was trying to get across when I wrote the passage you quoted was that opinions only have meaning in contrast with other opinions, and an online environment provides good contrast that you really can't easily obtain elsewhere. Contrast is beneficial at least in part because, opinions only have meaning when you continually work to shape them.
If you'll permit an analogy: let's say someone hands you two black sheets of paper. This person tells you to cut out a perfect circle from one of the sheets and then glue it onto the other sheet. You do so. You show your work to the person and they ask you how you know that you cut out a good circle. Good question. How do you know? Because you pasted a black shape on a black piece of paper, it's impossible to tell how good of a circle it is. It could be a square, or a hexagon, and you'd never know. It's also impossible to improve your circle cutting technique, because you don't have any knowledge about your skill level. You'll never improve at cutting circles until you can evaluate what you're doing. The only way you'll know that you are able to cut out a good circle is to paste one of them on a white piece of paper. When you do that, it's easy to see where the imperfections in your design are, and you can work on a strategy to design a better circle.
I should stress that there's an underlying philosophical point buried in that analogy in addition to the more obvious lesson of self-improvement. Even if I was the most skilled circle-cutter in the world, even if I knew I could cut out a perfect circle without a doubt in my mind, if I paste one of my perfect black circles on a sheet of black paper, is it truly any better of a circle - functionally - than an imperfect circle on the same black background? Without the context provided by white paper, is there any difference between a perfect circle and an imperfect circle? More importantly, can anyone learn anything about the essence of circlehood if I they see my perfect circle pasted on a black sheet of paper? The entire definition of circle is meaningless without context to define the boarders. I rephrase: if I paste a black circle on a black piece of paper, there is no circle at all. No wonder I can learn nothing from it - one cannot learn from something that does not exist.
The same thing goes with opinions. How good is an opinion if you have never looked at it against a backdrop of other opinions, and, importantly, opinions that are a different color than one's own? So when I say I have "tweaked" my opinions and beliefs as a result of coming to on-line fora, I don't only mean that I have changed my opinions because I've observed better ones along the way. Maybe there are instances where I have changed an opinion because someone else has written something here that really stopped and made me re-evaluate my own ideas. I don't know of an occasion off the top of my head, but it's certainly possible. More certain is that I've honed my skills at analysis.
Nevertheless, I consider those to be minor benefits of anonymous discussion. The true benefit is the philosophical one. For though I may be absolutely certain in the truth of my opinion on any given matter, without the context provided by the differing opinions of other people, these opinions of mine would be little more than black circles held against a starless evening sky.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 09:28 AM |
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I seriously wish I had the power to give you a quality point for that last post Corribus. Insightful, intelligent (as always), and almost poetry. Since this is the tribunal all I can do is give you a 
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Message received.
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted August 31, 2009 10:26 AM |
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im afride its alittle different for me.
I started hc with wog,after several mounths i wrote something in osm, regarding something i was sure about,it got acuilies wratth,and i withdrew back to wog for sevral mounths,it took me,lol,some kind of courge to tell acuilies,and that time gootch too,off.
i thought osm was about posting things from our lifes at that point,however it became a sub forum for religious,political debates.
I found my posts ignored,and misstaken. every attempted of topic that i've created here did'nt go well. so i left it,i mean i probbly didn't belong here in the osm,tought i once thoguht i did. people don't take me sirously,despite me being one. I prefer to confide in here to speak of Real life problams,and so one,rather then dry politics. but alas,it's just the way things are.
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types in obscure english
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 31, 2009 10:29 AM |
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The Tavern is a bit less...serious, and real life topics are still welcome there. Some of us OSM people will still discuss pleasantly with people in the OSM however.
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Message received.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 31, 2009 03:13 PM |
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Quote:
I seriously wish I had the power to give you a quality point for that last post Corribus. Insightful, intelligent (as always), and almost poetry. Since this is the tribunal all I can do is give you a
Well thanks, Mytical. And a is almost as good.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 01, 2009 01:51 PM |
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I have the power!
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 01, 2009 02:45 PM |
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Hi Pan, welcome back! And thanks; now I can rate threads. 
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted September 02, 2009 03:54 PM |
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Sorry if this isn't about the topic (the part about having changed beliefs, I personally have, several times, though not in the short time I've been a user on this forum), but I'd like to note some "problems" with the quoted part.
First of all, I agree 100% with the ideal behind the text, it's in my opinion the most serious reason you could be on an internet forum, more serious than being here to share information with others, because you're doing it for yourself, and not for someone you don't know.
Quote:
One of the reasons I like visiting on-line forums and reading other viewpoints is because it's a great, non-random, anonymous way to test my own beliefs. The best way to feel confident in one's beliefs is to constantly evaluate them to make sure there aren't better ones around the corner. How better to do this than putting one’s beliefs up against other beliefs that are out there and seeing which one shines brighter? A belief has more value when it is battle tested. Because belief motion is influenced by people we interact with and because our conditioning biases what people we're likely to expose ourselves to, our real life does not often offer good opportunities to explore our beliefs and gain enlightenment.
Yes, it's an ideal way of people all over the world to share ideas, beliefs, etc., however there's a problem.
As the level of the idea rises, the amount of people who can come with some valid input will diminish. Therefore the likeliness of your idea to meet sufficient challenge to be worth "putting out there" will fall dramatically as your level of ideas, and intellect, rises.
The randomness of the interet-forums are great in the way that it means it's at least possible, given someone out there who've a valid viewpoint you could use exists, that you'll find what you seek. However the whole text doesn't reveal how unlikely it'll be for you to meet a sufficient viewpoint.
Let's make an example, often on various forums I see people discuess the idea behind travelling backwards in time, and the problems and paradoxes that arose, now I may have an idea which will remove all paradoxes and reduce all problems down to one single problem, and making time travelling backwards in time very realistic, given some already realistic basics, or at least I think so, however there may be something I've overlooked, and to find out I propose this idea and discusses it with other people, people who at least aren't all biased in the same direction, due to the internet-forums allowing everyone in, yet still it may happen that the level of the idea is too high for me to meet anyone with a sufficient viewpoint.
But who knows, maybe one week before I posted the idea, a forum-poster would have been able to come with a sufficient viewpoint or maybe if I'd waited some time, new people would have been able to come up with a good counter-argument, or maybe would even be able to improve the idea.
Therefore, as the level of the idea rises, the time needed to get any valid input will increase dramatically as the likeliness of any valid input decreases.
Quote:
The internet forum offers a unique opportunity for exposure to random beliefs not biased by our own conditioning or social circles, and which are also not biased by the presence of potentially disingenuous authority figures or friends/family members that we're afraid to offend or disagree with. You people reading this are "random people" who have a lot of unique ideas about a number of topics that I find interesting. This exposure is mostly anonymous, and I know that the viewpoints I will encounter here are essentially random. I don't come here for the sole purpose of entertainment. I come here to prove that my opinion is right, but I'm not trying to prove it to you. I'm trying to prove it to myself. Through discussion with you, I find myself thinking about my beliefs in new ways, sort of like having someone proofread a manuscript because I know they will catch problems I'll never see, and though it may not come across the screen, I find myself tweaking my beliefs a lot in response to your challenges, your ideas, and your beliefs. Or at least, reinforcing my beliefs with the knowledge they've survived the battle.
One of the major problems with the internet-forums however is that there's not much evolution in ideas, though there're plenty of arguments.
Let's take another example, though of what I just wrote, let's say I make the said topic about time machines, however this time let's focus not on the topic itself, but how the forum evolves. First the topic is created, then after some time a period of no answers will come, and the topic will slowly fall down to page 2, then 3, etc.
A while later someone else makes a topic about travelling in time, however this person (who for good reason hasn't been reading all 345 pages of posts, and nor the already existing 43 posts of the same topic, each with 2-8 pages, which he found with the search function) writes about the exact same problems, which I may have made a counter-argument against earlier, yet this person is not aware of this, and thereby eventhough the arguments we all need and search for may exist in this infinite void we call the internet, it's not possible for us to find it, even when searching, because we keep on making new topics about it, repeating what already was said once, however with other people, making other conclusion.
No what really is needed is some kind of order, e.g. letting the OP contain all arguments, for and against, all ideas, all beliefs that have went through, let there only be 1 topic, and let the first post all the time be updated, not with the persons own belief (which will be saved though as a kind of second post), no with how the topic have evolved, all fors and against, all values used.
Another example, it would thereby be easy for someone for which one of his many core values may be that life should always be preserved, to find a topic about existance, to find a part where someone with simular values as himself have written, to find
#1 Counterarguments against his ideas, maybe finding out a smallest existance is needed to be defined
#2 Adding arguments as he believes he has something of value to contribue, which after some posts may be added to the front post (which is the only post he has read to begin with, and then the answers to his own anser of course).
#3 Finding new arguments for his very own belief.
This way the randomness of the internet will not be both a blessing (everything is possible) and a curse (everything is cluttered), as the clutter will be much less significant, and the ideas of people who've been here years ago, and people who're going to join us in years to come will meet and it'll evolve us all much more.
Quote:
For that, I am grateful. I only wish that everyone here had the same motivation, but I get the feeling some people, particularly these days, only come around to compare penis sizes and prove to everyone else how enlightened they think they are.
Many people come here for many different reasons, and I believe it's all up to themselves and all should be welcome, what's needed is for a clear split in what parts of any internet-forum that's serious and what pars that are for entertainment, yet where both part of course allows a bit of both. (I do realise this forum is most of all for the game Heroes of Might and Magic, and therefore the common factor of poeple comming here is the interest in this game)
Some people come here due to habit, feeling of duty, entertianment, or simply because they're bored. All of these, maybe except entertainment, are negative for the rest of us, simply because these people often aren't here of free will, but more so out of lack of creativity, and for the serious person, the person who wants to share and wants to test, for him all of these are negative as none of those people are "on his boat" so to say.
Nevertheless it's important that we can all be here, no matter from where we come, no matter why and no matter if we really wants to be here in the first place, because if we don't let there be room for all of us, eventhough it's someone who tries to teach you something "prove how enlightened they think they are" eventhough you do not wish so, or someone who tries to to show how much better they're than you "comparing penis sizes".
After all, like the beginning of the text seems to try to inspire, take a chance and learn from it, either counter them with your ideas and show them the "right way" or find out they're actually right, listen to them and take what they've to say into consideration.
Finally I'd like to add something that'd actually be even better than internet-fora for testing ideas, beliefs, arguments, etc. and that would be a mathematical development of the idea behind the idea.
As most people know any given idea is derived through some core values we all have, which differs from person to person, and which no arguments often can change, unless a really good one. However we often first find out our core values when we reflect over our ideas and through that all we really can do is to estimate how good any given idea is, but not to create any infinite set of ideas that goes for any core of values. Now if we somehow could make some approach that'd give us that infinite set of ideas, arguments, etc. that any core of values would imply, then there'd be no need for testing of beliefs, etc. at all, all of the randomness will be removed undependent of the level of the idea, whereby you won't have to wait until somewhere in 2009 before you get the any sufficient viewpoints. However it would not make interet-fora obsolete for the serious, they'd be even greater, now in stead of thread after thread, with each subject (no repititions), we'll have much fewer threads, maybe only a few, discussing the optimal core values of life.
One of the major steps however for anyone to change core value are sientific discoveries, if we somehow found out that there exists an afterlife (or there doesn't), or that we somehow find out what exactly defines us to be existent (not existent in the case of saying we're part of the universe, but more like saying, we're alive, we've an inner observer, we've free will, we're something unique (or at least I'm, I can really know for myself of course)), then many would probably change values.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 02, 2009 04:19 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:21, 02 Sep 2009.
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@Ohforfsake
Quote:
One of the major problems with the internet-forums however is that there's not much evolution in ideas, though there're plenty of arguments.
That's because most people don't follow the rules of organized debate, as I've stated before. Excessive quoting is a huge part of the problem.
By the way, if you want to read the entire post from which the quoted passage was extracted, you can find it here (first post, top of the page). Perhaps it will make some more sense in context.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted September 12, 2009 02:26 PM |
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Quote:
@Ohforfsake
Quote:
One of the major problems with the internet-forums however is that there's not much evolution in ideas, though there're plenty of arguments.
That's because most people don't follow the rules of organized debate, as I've stated before. Excessive quoting is a huge part of the problem.
By the way, if you want to read the entire post from which the quoted passage was extracted, you can find it here (first post, top of the page). Perhaps it will make some more sense in context.
I got around to read the posts you were talking about, and you make some good points, and it's given me some more insight.
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