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| Thread: Expand Might heroes | |
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2009 08:45 PM |
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Expand Might heroes
Currently, Might heroes dont offer anything unique compared to a magic hero. I think that a might hero should be different from a magic hero.
So why not add Shouts to all Might heroes - called Commands. Commands could be expanded into several different categories, similar to spell schools. Im thinking of three different categories right now. Offense, Protection and Strategy.
I will release the full idea later.
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Oz
Adventuring Hero
Preparing
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posted August 17, 2009 09:21 PM |
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You mean something like this?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 17, 2009 09:25 PM |
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I agree ... my current project has a range of Combat Techniques to offer Might heroes more variety. 
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What will happen now?
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted August 17, 2009 09:36 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 21:37, 17 Aug 2009.
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I'll like to see something like combo system, where the might hero has own spell, maybe called "stikes" or some sort of abilities.
Since Xerdux is wow player he may also tell you how good a system similar to the worrior one may work in HoMM (of course I use it only as example). Abilities like sunder armor (reduse the enemy armors stats) or hamstring (reduse the speed), or Command shout (increase hp of party members), battle shout (increase the attack), execute (strong damaging finishing attack), etc...
It just have to be different for every town.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted August 17, 2009 09:57 PM |
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I love this idea Xerdux! I'll add it when I make my Heroes 6 Idea, which should be soon, and cool.  !
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Vini Vidi Vici
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2009 10:22 PM |
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I came up with this as I wrote the post but the idea is that the ''Offense'' specialization will focus more on direct damage done by the Might hero. Hero combat isnt very interactive right now. When you play with your Knight you just ride out with your horse and with a 10 second long animation [...] you do a melee attack.
However, in this idea, an Offense-based might hero will be more active in combat and perform melee abilities such as ''Devastate'' and ''Sunder Armor'' etc.
A combo system would be good and I personally think that Might heroes should be deployed on the actual battlefield but be very hard to kill [they should take like 75 percent less damage etc].
It will be interesting to see where this is going.
And I agree that there should be a ''Warrior's Guild'' with three levels.
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted August 17, 2009 10:41 PM |
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I agree.
There should be At least a counterpart to Sorcery, one that give additional Initiative when attacking. (reason why I rarely attack with a Might Hero (except Barb) is because I always will have better moves to do)
Some Shatter Skills is also an option, like Shatter Light for Knights or Shatter Summoning for Dwarves. TO Shouts I say No - Just no, they are only there to allow the Barbs to do a certain type of Magic, to make sure that you can do other things than just attack. Magic will work for all other Heroes, even Might ones. (as long as they have Mana left)
Last but not least, I really desire the old system of one Might and One Magic Hero per town.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted August 17, 2009 10:49 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 22:50, 17 Aug 2009.
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Naaa, Shatter Skills isn't a good idea as the old resistence is! There should be resistence (like magic defence stat), and it have to be available for all (magic and might) classes, just higher if you get the resistence skill, some classes should start with racial resistence bonus against some magic schools (dark elfs for dark, demonst for destr., etc...).
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted August 17, 2009 10:56 PM |
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But wouldn't that break gameplay?
I mean, Magic Resistance is already very nasty as it is.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted August 17, 2009 11:08 PM |
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We are talking for new gameplay, right? Not the boring H5 one. I'm not talking for the current magic resistence, but for a new one, still in the a bit H3 style.
Your hero is going to have anti magic prot for every school higher for some lower for others. This will reduse the damage to your creatures as well.
Other idea is every creature in heroes army to have it's own individual magic defence (along with melee defence), bigger for the higer tiers. The hero is getting also individual magic prot but in percentages.
Ex.:
Lets say that a creature has 20 magic protection. The hero has 20% destructive resistence, this makes the creatures defence 20 + 4 (20% of 20).
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted August 17, 2009 11:15 PM |
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Ah, I see, but wouldn't that be a bit weak? Wasting a slot for only 4% extra for only one Magic School? I think it might be best if it is cumulative with Natural Resistance. (and in that case I would prefer: Basic 10%, Adv: 15%, Expert: 20%) (or a perk, like it is now.)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2009 11:21 PM |
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Right. So this is the basic idea so far.
Might heroes cant cast any spells. Instead, they use Commands to empower their units. The effect of Commands is increased through the Captaincy specialization. Specialization are the Might equalents to Magic schools such as Light and Dark magic.
Instead of casting damaging spells, a Might hero is present on the battlefield {mountless] and uses Assaults instead. Assaults are boosted through the Offense specialization.
The Hero can also focus on utility and support on his troops. To grant his troops various formatiopns etc. The specialization Strategy is used for support and utility-based moves called Orders. Lastly, we have Antagonizing that is performed through Shouts. This specialization focuses on weakening the enemy forces in many different ways.
A Might hero will not be able to use Spells or buy a spellbook. Some spells have an equalent Might ability. Such as Dominion, at the bottom of the Antagonizing specialization. It works in the same fashion as Puppet Master.
Unlike a Magic hero, a Might hero is forced to partipicate on the battlefield and fight. Heroes on the battlefield are mountless and not large creatures due to balance reasons. I dont want Heroes to function like tanks. There might be some Assaults that involve using your mount in a single attack though. Such as Trample, which could be similar to the Mages Magic Attack except that it's physical.
Might Heroes learn these moves in a three-level Might Guild. This idea was orginally inspired by Strongholds shout system. All factions have a few own abilities, though many mirror each other snd I will try to make it as balanced as possible.
All factions should also get both Might and Magic heroes.
Well, that's how long I've come during this evening.
Now I will sleep over this. Its only the begining and I really think that we can make something out of this.
My opinion is that Might heroes should be separate from Magic heroes. I love critism by the way.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted August 17, 2009 11:29 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 23:40, 17 Aug 2009.
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My basic idea for the resistence:
The skills - basic, advanced and expert, will grand the hero base magic prot. agains all magic schools, while every town will have also racial bonus against one or two schools (maybe except Academy, they can get bonus to all), also depending on the hero's class and chosen resistence perk he may get additional protection agains some schools.
Also I'll like to see more support creatures, maybe a new type of unit, similar to the WoG's commander. It takes place in combat, can be killed, but enchants the units near and the hero.
Also supporting units, like healers, hard core casters, etc... Currently there is none 100% caster unit, all are ranged + caster, I wanna see unit that fight ONLY with magic, or unit that has spell-breaking specialization, or healing, or with mana battery function.
Every town should has it's own role and specialization in my dream Heroes 6. I'll stop here, it's going out of topic.
EDIT:
P.S.
You don't have to worry that magic resistence will grow to much, it will take a lot ot time + the magic hero should has his tricks and skills against it.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted August 18, 2009 12:13 AM |
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Quote:
all are ranged + caster
Pitlords, Sprites... not counting the quasi-casters like Djinns.
The problem lies in the poor scaling concept for caster stacks. Spells should all work along the lines of the Titans Call Lightning in the next game, every creature in the stack adds x damage or duration.
That'll probably also leave more room for casters with enough mana to cast more than 2-3 spells per fight since they won't be as overpowered in small encounters.
There could also be some more skills and creature abilities that benefits casters (ie. Mark of the Necromancer restoring mana to Liches, casters benefiting from certain Sorcery skills, etc).
And finally, for those creatures I would suggest a new attack type (magic). Ignores defense and penalties that apply to shooting but is generally less powerful than ranged.
As for might heroes, I agree they should have some more options (though most of the current factions already offer some, they just need to be improved), but generally the focus of might skills should lie in improving the creatures directly as they have always done.
So at most, I'd suggest one ability per might skill, but they can still learn magic (otherwise we'd be turning every might class into barbarians)
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 18, 2009 08:46 AM |
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So you want to differentiate might heroes from magic ones by giving might heroes 'spells' (see Light Magic, that's already got Divine Strength, Haste, Endurance and the rest of it)? Can't say I agree with this.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted August 18, 2009 11:03 AM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 11:03, 18 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
So you want to differentiate might heroes from magic ones by giving might heroes 'spells' (see Light Magic, that's already got Divine Strength, Haste, Endurance and the rest of it)? Can't say I agree with this.
That's not the point. The might hero will be on the battlefield with his creatures and perform strategy moves with them agains the enemy, do combos (like sunder armor, demoralization shout + some ability that consume the sunder to damage).
There may be some sort of might hero specialization like shield (better in protection commands), shield and sword (balansed protection and attack), bow and crossbows (ranged), warhammers and axes (strong damagind specialization). Every race may get different bonus to them.
And who ever said that Light can't get a change? It need it. I'll like to be more orientated in healing and magical shields, some buffs of course.
The new might abilities what make him just another light caster, he will got only few buffing abilities, but also some debuffing (lower enemy morale and armor), maybe depending on the town. He is going to have strikes and combos with his army, like charge, or rain of arrows, or adding lets say bleeding damage to the target. He will just be able to enchant his army with fighting skills, while the magic one is going to use spells.
Also the might hero increase his ability effectiveness with his def and attack, not the spell power.
That's I'll like to see new stat system, I posted about it long ago in thread by Ash or Xerdux, can't remember.
At least thats my idea.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 18, 2009 01:59 PM |
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Xerdux >
I think you have many good ideas. Much of it is very similar to what I have prepared and just posted in my Heroes 6 thread. Basically, the outline of mine is:
- There are 4 Combat schools granting you access to different "Techniques", similar to your Assaults, the mirror of spells.
- You learn the Techniques in a Warrior Guild, a 5 level structure mirror to Mage Guild.
- Everybody can learn all level 1 and 2 Techniques, while you need the appropriate skill or certain perks to learn level 3, 4 and 5 Techniques (similar to spells).
- Any hero may cross-branch, learning both Magic Schools and Combat Schools, but obviously Magic classes will favor the former, while Might classes will favor the latter. In most cases, having at least one Magic skill and one Combat skill will probably be favorable in late game for versatility.
See more details in the other thread.
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What will happen now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 15, 2009 07:51 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 18:51, 15 Sep 2009.
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Since I've restored my account (<- very happy), this will my "master post".
Might Heroes
Might heroes can't cast any spells. Instead, they use Commands to empower their units. The effect of Commands is increased through the Captaincy specialization. Specializations are the Might equalents to Magic schools such as Light and Dark magic.
Instead of casting damaging spells, a Might hero is present on the battlefield {mountless] and uses Assaults instead. Assaults are boosted through the Offense specialization. A Might hero can also choose to focus on unit utility and support. The specialization Strategy is used for support and utility-based moves called Orders. Lastly, we have Antagonizing that is performed through Shouts. This specialization focuses on weakening the enemy forces in many different ways.
A Might hero will not be able to use Spells or buy a spellbook. Some spells have an equalent Might ability. Such as Dominion, at the bottom of the Antagonizing specialization. It works in the same fashion as Puppet Master.
Unlike a Magic hero, a Might hero is forced to partipicate on the battlefield and fight. Heroes on the battlefield are mountless and not large creatures due to balance reasons. I don't want Heroes to function like tanks, though there might be an ability that works like that. There might be some Assaults that involve using your mount in a single attack though. Such as Trample, which could be similar to the Mages Magic Attack except that it's physical.
Might Heroes learn these moves in a three-level Might Guild. This idea was orginally inspired by Strongholds shout system. All
All factions should also get both Might and Magic heroes.
Converted Heroes
Might heroes will be separate from Magic heroes. Because of this, some former Might heroes will turn into Magic heroes and vice versa. Many of the new heroes will get new or expanded descriptions aswell as new specialities.
Haven
The Haven might hero is the Knight and the new Magic hero will be the Cleric. The Clerics are the religious leaders of the Empire. Clerics are adept at both Dark and Light magic. Many of the new heroes will get new or expanded descriptions aswell as new specialities.
Clerics: Ellaine, Maeve, Rutger, Klaus
Inferno
The Inferno might hero is the Demon Lord and the new Magic hero will be the Heretic. The Heretics are the opposite of the Clerics. They worship the primodial Dragon of Chaos Urgash. Heretics are adept at both Dark and Desturction magic.
Heretics: Alastor, Marbas, Jezebeth, Grawl
Sylvan
The Sylvan might hero is the Ranger and the new Magic hero will be the Keeper. The Keepers are the spiritual masters of Druidism and watch over the sacred Groves of Irollan. Keepers are adept at both Light and Destructive magic.
Keepers: Dirael, Vinrael, Ylthin, Gilraen
Dungeon
The Dungeon magic hero is the Warlock and the new Might hero will be the Overlord. The Overlords are the slavemasters of Ygg-Chall. They control their troops - or minions - with an iron fist. Overlords are adept at Antangonizing and Offense.
Overlords: Kythra, Sorgal, Vayshan, Yrwanna
Academy
The Academy magic hero is the Wizard and the new Might hero will be the Tinker. The Tinkers are grand inventors and engineers of the Free Cities. With their technology, they can be some of the most dreaded foes on the battlefield. Tinkers are adept at Captaincy and Strategy.
Tinkers: Havez, Razzak, Faiz, Galib
Necropolis
The Necropolis magic hero is the Necromancer and the new Might hero will be the Deathlord. The Deathlords are the military commanders and counts of Heresh. Deathlords are adept at Antagonizing and Strategy.
Deathlords: Kaspar, Orson, Lucretia, Zoltan
Fortress
The Fortress magic hero is the Rune-Mage and the new Might hero will be the Runemaster. The Runemasters use Runes in martial combat and to empower their troops. Runemasters have skills in Captainy, Strategy and Offense though they master none.
Runemasters: Ebba, Ingvar, Karli, Helmar
Stronghold
The Stronghold might hero is the Barbarian and the new Magic hero will be the Seer. The Seers maintain a direct connection with the spirits and offer great guidance to the Orc warriors. Seershave skills in Light, Summoning and Destructive though they master none.
Seers: Shak'karukat, Kilghan, Haggash, Urgath
To be updated.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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