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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 21, 2009 05:46 AM |
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Edited by Miru at 01:30, 23 Aug 2009.
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Leveling system
I'm very interested in complex leveling systems, so I wanted to design a new one. It will be complex with many nuances, but automatic and adaptive to your character so even if you don't know how / are too lazy to use it properly you can still level your character. This is supposed to be a general fantasy leveling system. All opinions (including criticism and recommendations) are welcome. As I think of more, I will add it.
Level
Your level is more of a measure of your power than a granter of it. every few levels you are allowed to choose a level feat, otherwise level only reflects total exp on all skills. Exp required to gain levels would increase linearly, not exponentially (like in DnD), so level gain would not slow down as much.
Class
Like level your class would reflect your character rather than determine it. At each level you would either have the game auto pick a class that you meet the requirements of or you manually pick it. All classes wold have various requirements, like a samurai might require high honor and katanas, versus an assassin which would require low niceness, dagger skills, and good stealth skills. There would also be a prefix for classes (like pseudo) to show you don't quote meet the requirements of a class, but you are one (like an assassin with no dagger skills)
Stats
There are going to be a few kinds of stats. Ones that grow, ones that grow slowly, and ones that don't grow. They work like stats in most games do. Many of them synergize (grow faster, or gain levels when others do) with other stats. Most of them grow based on total exp of skills dependent on them (like elder scrolls but automatic instead of selected at level up). All stats boost dependent skills.
Growing stats
Upper body strength
Determines damage done with physical attacks
Lower body strength
Increases weight carry able, damage done with kicks (for karate like characters only)
*These two strengths might combine or something so that stats are appliable to non humanoid monsters.
Endurance (as in how long you can run)
Base for fatigue meter and refilling (like in elder scrolls)
Constitution (as in how well you can take a hit)
Coordination (like dexterity for general body)
Nimbleness (dexterity for fingers)
Wisdom (making good decisions)
Charm (charisma, but only the metal aspects of it)
Slowly growing stats
Awareness
Intelligence
Static stats
Appearance (charisma, but only physical aspects)
Luck
Size
There are also a few derived stats to catch everything else, I don't have a few good list for them yet.
Reactions (what is commonly called reflex, or reflex save)
Skills
Skills make up the majority of the level system. Unless this thread becomes very popular, they will not be listed individually, only by type. Skills level through use, however they are boosted by their dependent stat(s) and feats. I don't like breaking them into combat, magic and misc, so I will probably restructure later.
Physical combat skills
They will come in trees. First you will have general melee combat skill (for all swords, axes, staffs etc.). Once that gets high enough you will unlock weapon skills (for a certain weapon only). By leveling up enough, or through a feat, you will unlock style skills. Redundant skills (which share the same exp source) do not stack for increasing level and stats. So at high levels whenever you attack you would gain exp in one of each of these (eg general, rapiers, fencing // general, unarmed, karate // general, unarmed, brawling // general, blunts, brawling)).
Magical skills
I have not thought about this a lot, but there will be a few arts (conjuring, evoking, necromancy, illusion) a few abilities (having to do with magic theory, but like vocalization power, ingredient refinement, spell power, something to measure your body's ability to resist ill effects form having magic channeled through it), some spells may be learned when you meet all requirements, others will have to be learned from scrolls or mentors.
Misc skills
Many of these you will start outwith (eg swimming), some you will need a feat to use (eg lock picking), few of them are tree skills. A couple of them may be complete oddballs, such as a knowledge / lore skill, which is leveled up through reading and talking, not through use.
Feats
Similar to feats in DnD or perks in fallout, these are standalone non leveled (or only having like 3 levels) abilities. Some of them enable certain skills (like proficiency in lock picking), some of them grant abilities (like ki strike), some boost things (like carry more, or regenerate fatigue faster). There will be 3 ways to acquire them:
Unlock feats
Once you meet the requirements, you gain the ability. For instance 10 into fencing, 5 into rapiers, 30 into general may give you the parry feat (which gives you the ability to parry). Having the feats cleave, and power attack might grant you greater cleave.
Taught feats
You get these feats from reading a book or having some one teach you. Most proficiency feats are taught feats. Some have requirements, or you won't be able to learn them.
Level feats
Every level or every other level or something you are allowed to choose one of these feats. Some of them have requirements.
Alignment
I like the idea of distinguishing between lawful and good, but I want to take that even further. I'm not sure how this will work out, and dumb characters will probably have more and more things lumped into "good" and "evil", making it harder for the player to judge others.
First I want to break down what makes other people good or evil
Order
Whether or not you follow laws, regulations, and are disciplined is the most easily distinguished aspect.
Niceness
Everything from humbleness, generosity and politeness to selflessness,. Their opposites, such as sadism fit here.
Difference
Different is often "evil" - people view others with strange beliefs as pagan, and when talking about people in other countries it is easier to see them as "the bad guys". This one isn't linear and may be to hard to put into the game.
Bravery
Apparently some people see cowardice as evil? I don't think I want to include this one.
Monetary status
Beggars and rich people are often seen as more or less evil.
Honor
Don't even get me started on this.
No one has any interest in leveling systems?
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted August 23, 2009 01:39 AM |
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Edited by Shares at 01:50, 23 Aug 2009.
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I do! I constantly thinking about wider and more complex character evolvment. Like ways to advance skills or stats. 'Cuz let's face it, the regular "get this much xp and level and get a stat point" isn't very good.
Read your stuff, and I, personally like it. I think the bad part is that the player will have few things to choose, except when creating the character and picking feats. On the other hand, the character will reflect the choices of the player directly by advancing in the skills/stats that he chooses to use. So, yeah. I like it, but it'll not be very welcoming for people who are not "hard core"-roleplayers.
EDIT:
I've been making notes on a system I've been thinking about. It will be more of an evolution system. So that when the character has enough experience (how that will be gained is unsure) it may upgrade a specific bodypart, like his arm in some way, he can make stronger, faster or tougher. He can also be able to add or remove stuff, like adding wings or something (if that should be available) or upgrade general stats, like fatigue. How the magical system will be added is unsure, but I think something like that could replace the stats, and the skills will advance when used.
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Rarensu
Known Hero
Formerly known as RTI
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posted August 24, 2009 10:41 AM |
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I've been thinking about some sort of reply to this thread for days. I keep running up against a fundamental problem of game design:
SIMPLICITY VS REALISM
If your game has only 1 element of strategy, then it is easy to learn and use, but it is not fun to play. On the other game, if your game has every element of strategy, then it is perfectly realistic, and no-one will enjoy it because we already live in reality; the purpose of a game is to escape to a simpler world.
In order for a game to be fun, a line must exist in the designer's mind; a compromise must be made between simplicity and realism. The game must be realistic enough to provide an engaging experience, but it also must be simple enough to detach the gamer from his/her sense of reality.
For each audience, this line is different. Average Joe can't tolerate an RPG much more realistic than Gauntlet Legends, but if you sell me an RPG any less realistic than Oblivion, I feel insulted.
We must to discuss this before we start the design proper. Exactly how realistic are we to create this system? I, of course, put my vote as far towards realistic as it will go. But I'm not necessarily the target audience here.
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Sincerely,
A Proponent of Spelling, Grammar, Punctuation, and Courtesy.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 24, 2009 12:10 PM |
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Still composing a proper reply but I do want to challenge something  .
Appearence and Size being static.
So a mage who hits the gym can't bulk up and be bigger?
So the warrior who gets on the wrong side of a bear can't get a scar and alter his appearence?
Still, I like all the work you put into this Miru 
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Message received.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted August 24, 2009 12:13 PM |
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That is one of the most troubling dilemmas. I agree with that. But having a very realistic game doesn't necessary have to be boring or overly complicated... for the player. I also agree that it should be as realistic as possible.
Are we going to try to develop some kind of game system here, or are we just fooling around?
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted August 25, 2009 03:51 AM |
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Size meant how tall you are and wide (as in wide shoulders), not buff. And static as in they don't increase as you level, they can, of course, change and there will likely be quests that change you as a reward.
Shares you have a point with the choices. I like choices, but it has 2 big down sides, A) you can screw up (I have OCD so I like having a perfect character), and B) choices don't seem to be very popular. However I may change that before getting into more detail about this.
I was going to keep updating the post and get gradually into more detail, but no one seems interested, I'm getting no feedback and few are reading this so I don't see any point in doing so.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 25, 2009 07:41 AM |
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Well, those of us who posted were reading it, and some of us were trying to come up with some good suggestions. It's your decision though.
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Message received.
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pei
Famous Hero
Fresh Air.
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posted August 25, 2009 10:58 PM |
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I like what ur doing...its creative.
Patience child...and remember the golden rule of art ....... you will only be recognized after death.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted June 26, 2010 04:02 AM |
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You can all continue to ignore this, I am doing this for my own future reference at this point.
falchion/cutlass/dao slash chop medium
gladius/spatha slash thrust chop medium
dagger/dirk/stiletto/sai thrust tiny
knife thrust slash chop tiny
shortsword slash thrust small
longsword/snowsword slash thrust medium
claymore/greatsword arc large
flambard arc large or slash medium
kris thrust tiny
estoc/tuck/rapier thrust medium
tanto slash thrust tiny
wakazachi/kodachi/ninjato slash small
katana slash medium
dia katana arc large
tachi /obachi (curve katana) slash medium
Nodachi (big curve katana) arc large
sabre/scimitar/shamshir slash thrust medium
hand axe/ono chop medium
battle axe/labrys/sagaris arc chop medium
tomahawk/francisca/throwing throw chop small
war axe/tabar zin arc large
mace/morningstar/club bludgeon medium
hammer bludgeon arc medium
dire mace arc bludgeon large
war hammer bludgeon arc large
nunchaku bludgeon medium
flail bludgeon medium
claws thrust slash tiny
tonfa bludgeon tiny
pata/katara thrust slash tiny
knuckles bludgeon tiny
lance thrust large
spear/pike thrust large
javelin thrust throw large
trident thrust large
bardriche/glaive chop arc large
halberd thrust chop arc large
quarterstaff bludgeon large
somethingbow small
compound bow medium
shortbow bow medium
longbow bow large
dart throw tiny
kama/sickle slash? tiny
scythe slash? large
kukri chop slash small
whip/chain bludgeon? medium?
meteor hammer bludgeon small?
bolas throw small?
sling throw? small?
atlatl throw medium
sword breaker bludgeon? medium?
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 26, 2010 05:21 AM |
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Sounds complicated. You only need one stat, called "Stat", that increases by 1 every time the character does or says anything.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 26, 2010 07:03 AM |
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For a really good leveling system, you need something besides combat exp. Puzzle solving exp, etc. Not everybody likes a slug fest.
Of course repetition of something gets less beneficial after awhile, except to keep you at your current skill level.
If you are a body builder and suddenly just stop and sit on the couch..you are going to lose all that muscle for instance.
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Message received.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted June 26, 2010 07:32 AM |
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Let the levelling system suit reality and let the game suit reality and you're basicly done. At least if it should be something I'd find good.
I disagree games are merely for escaping a more complex world into a simpler one, games are not about differences in complexity, but about exposing yourself to different environments (game world) through different tools of interactions (your character).
By letting levelling not be something that is set in stone, but rather work like in real life, i.e. you do it and you get better (there exists an optimal rate, going to the fitness 7 times a week is worse than 4 times, but better than 1 time, but most of all that depends on what you actually do there) and if you don't do it for long enough time you start to loose it.
Let it be a short term memory combined with a long term memory, that is short term memory is a measure of intelligence or adaptbility, because it determines how quick someone can adapt to a situation / learn something new, but only for use in the given moment (needs to be relearned unless one trains it), sufficient training makes it more and more likely to become part of the long time memory (a level has been gained) and finally by not using the new skill you've trained for a sufficient long time, the chance of it to stay in the long time memory approaches zero and you loose the level once again.
How to measure the short time memory can be done through a specific pre set value and combine it with other +factors from long time memory of skills that have influence on how well one can do the given task / perform the given skill. Like if you have levels in crafting weapons, you'll have an easier time crafting armors eventhough you may never train it enough to actually gain a level in it (only using short time memory) because you know a lot of the standard stuff about crafting and therefore basicly won't need that much instruction and won't have that high fail percentage (like burning yourself with the hot iron).
I always disliked the levelling system of especially diablo, to me it makes no sense you can suddenly do all sort of cool animation stuff (skill) because you've slaughtered x monsters. It doesn't fit together and it makes the world seem artificial and boring in my opinion, like alone in a world of people.
The might and magic series had it somewhat better, there at least you'd also get experience for doing stuff that didn't involve killing, but again there's no connection about delivering a letter to a historian and suddenly be able to perform well with a spear in your left hand (or actually, no connection in suddenly be able to learn how to perform well with a spear in the left hand, where you before delivering the letter weren't experienced enough to take said training).
Finally, morrowind, I think they did it quite well, but still there's a huge lack of connection with the values themselves, there you get a set bonus for each time you perform and when done enough times you get a +1. Reality doesn't work like that, try to jump up and down for 100 times and then try to do it 10 times, but with some extra weight on, the first method gets you no where in ability to jump higher, the second can improve you ability sligthly because it actually trains the explosiveness of the muscle and not the endurance of it. [That is 100 jumps makes you able to make many jumps in a row, jumping with weight makes you able to put more force behind your jumps].
Or try to read a book word for word without ever taking time to consider the input, reading it like fiction. Surely you can get through many books fast this way, but you probably won't have learned anything, because you won't have made any parallel to your world of understanding and imagination, there's no connection that have been made. On the other hand, you can read a book without ever reading everything in it and gain a most excellent understanding on the subject by organizing the material like you organize your thoughts, finding the subject, the conclusions and the justification.
And no, I really don't think it'd make a levelling system complicated at all, but what should be noted is that we all differ, if you want an optimal levelling system for person X, make person X use a given levelling system on said persons own real life and fit it to describe ones progress in life best possible. Then use this on the character and the character is a good representation of the players experience on how life works and then it's up to the player what morality the character shall follow.
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Living time backwards
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted June 26, 2010 09:35 PM |
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I think having skills atrophy is too complicated in general, my idea for gaining exp is you gain a bonus to all exp based on you int (like int/5 %),, you can do training mode, meaning pay more attention to the details of your movements at great combat penalties,, a significant exp bonus that disappears at level 20 or so,, and possibly something else. But having memory meters in addition to all of your exp meters seems like overkill.
As far as learning skills goes, unless it is something common you might figure out on your own, like parrying, you would have to be taught any given attack at a basic level and then get better at it.
I'm going to add my section on combat styles which should clear up how I think combat works (kind of like dragon age, but with more general modes, and more tactical and specific abilities)
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 27, 2010 06:01 AM |
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Oh I didn't mean to have any reduction over time that is a little too realistic. What I meant is after awhile the exp you get for doing the same thing would reduce. I've never quite understood how set exp works.
For instance, lets take combat. The first time you fight something, even if you have to retreat (ie don't manage to kill it) you should get bonus experience points. Like a learning curve. It's something you've never done before..so it gives you more experience then say the 100th time you fight a similar creature. Now they typically represent that by having each level cost more experience, but I'm not sure I agree. Instead the exp should reduce each time you do something. Do something new, and get full exp plus bonus exp..and then work your way down again. If that makes any sense.
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Message received.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 27, 2010 06:19 AM |
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I like skill systems over levels, since with levels your character has dramatic bursts of power. With skill points, the changes are more gradual, and it easily allows ultimate customization of your character. Ultima Online and Oblivion come to mind, though Oblivion's system is halfwit garbage in the sense that it punishes you for gaining skill in your primary skills. If you want higher stat gains you have to dick around with secondary skills a bunch instead of just being able to enjoy the game.
Ultima Online's was far more logical. You have various skills ranging from Archery, Swordsmanship, and Wizardry to Animal Taming, Fishing, and Tailoring. 0 is your base score, 100 is your max score, at which point you are considered grandmaster in the skill. As you gain points in a skill, you gain that skill slower. You have a max of 700 skill points you can gain, at which point your character is complete. The major adjustment I would make to it is separating the more critical skills (combat skills) from the craft/misc skills (alchemy, lumberjack, etc.), so that you have a max amount of combat skill points and then a max amount of miscellaneous skill points. Otherwise, there's not much incentive to waste skill points learning tailoring
Of course, you could also implement feats and such along the way.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 27, 2010 06:24 AM |
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I agree up to a point. Unless there is a skill for 'health' then there has to be some representation of how much harder it is to 'kill' a seasoned player then a newer player. This is done normally by Hit Points. Of course you can offset this by skills that reduce the effectiveness of enemies weapons also.
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Message received.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted June 27, 2010 06:32 AM |
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In Ultima Online, the three stats were strength, dex, and intelligence. Your stats went to a max of 100, and they also gained gradually depending on what skills you used (if you used archery, you gained dex). You could only have a max of 200 stat points though. Your strength determined your hit points.
I would want to see more stats than just those three, but the generally idea is workable.
The big problem of all of this is that it works great in a computer game. On paper, the micromanagement would be tiring, so you'd have to simplify the way you gain skills.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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