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| Thread: Achievements / Decisions you're proud of |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ohforfsake
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posted February 08, 2010 01:02 PM |
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For me, it is very hard to imagine circumstances where one would commit suicide. However it does happen, and it is really terrible, in my opinion.
From the individual perspective in regards to ones own existance, my view is as follows:
We don't know what defines life, thereby not what the consequences of death is, for some it would seem like an escape. This is how I view it.
We see ourselves as an existing entity, we'd most often define this existing entity as the soul. The idea of soul is rather easy, or at least I believe so, for most people to think of, because if you clip a nail, you'll notice you're still you, so you weren't that nail, you're still seeing everything from your own perspecitve.
If you loose an arm, you are still you, everything comes from your perspective, and everything about the arm is more or less gone, you can't feel what happens to the arm on the ground anymore.
So from daily life experience we do notice that whatever makes us, us, makes us real, makes us existing, is not in our arm or our nails, it is not in our hair, so where is it?
Well, before going to that question, I'd like to address the build up of us. If we accept such a thing as a soul (which can be proven, not as the religious idea of the soul, but it can be proven that we exist, or at least by the limit of my imagination to which defines my logic) then we can set the living being up as following:
Soul <- Observation <- Body Interpretation <- Event
From which
Soul -> Free Will vs. Instinct/Habits -> Action
Now as you can see from what I try to illustrate, the one who we are, is the one who get the observation. However our ability to react to such an observation, even thinking about making a reaction before deciding it, that is not what makes us alive. Our ability to think and our free will are merely tools we have been given from birth, just like talents and high intelligence often are.
So in princip even a rock can have a soul.
Now we cannot know if anyone of us, except for us self actually is existing, because the only way to know is if you observe. Of course unless we find a way to measure it.
On the other hand, you can know for complete certainty that you do exist, simply by that if you observe you must exist.
The idea behind that statement is that even if everything is an illusion, to be an illusion it must still give something to observe. What you observe is defined through the tools of your body, your senses, all that can be tricked, so all you observe can be an illusion, but it is an illusion in regard to something, i.e. something must exist. This something is the observer, which I have called the soul so far, and from this text should be clear that is what we call the consciousness.
Now do not confuse consciousness in the now, with consciousness in any other time, because memory, just as well as senses, thought and free will are all tools of our body and not something I believe is directly linked to the consciousness.
It means if you don't remember certain events (such as when you were a sleep or when you had a blackout while being drunk) it does not mean you had no consciouss there.
For the drunk part, your friends can tell you what happened (if you don't believe them to be an illusion, or trying to fool you that is), but for the sleeping part it is much harder to tell.
Eventhough there is no one to observe you observing (being consciouss), it does not mean you might not actually be very consciouss during your dreams, however without your memory active you won't experience time, because our memory is our only way to relate to time.
So in princip you can only know the now, right now, you are real, as our memory could be tampered with, everything we remember could just be an illusion as well.
Now there are two more things I think is very important to come in to, to make it make sense why suicide always is the wrong option from your own perspective in relation to yourself, no matter how bad the world seems.
First, as I have written about illusion so often, how should one relate to the world around us then? Well we can only observe through the tools of observation we have, many of which have been enhanced through smart ideas, making our measurements more accurate and also able to cover a wider span, therefore we can only relate to what we observe.
So what we define as reality, is what we observe, of course we are not stupid, we use the scientific method of trial and error, so if we see a pink elephant while drunk, we won't take the impression of it to be real, however we might make some further measurements to test how real it is. We learn from our mistakes, that is we use our memory, so if we once have seen the pink elephant and concluded it to be fake through measurements, we'll much sooner conclude the next time of it to be fake, yet probably still make some kind of attempt of measuring it.
That is we use all our tools and we belive in all our tools to be correct, but we only belive in them to the degree of what we can justify. So that is what defines our reality, very well knowing it all might be an illusion and the very next moment you might wake up in bed, having a faint memory of this dream that to you seem to have lasted 40 years, while in reality only a few hours of your sleep have passed.
Now I have made the soul seem like something a bit mystic maybe, however as written above, we use measurements to find connections between events and thereby the possibility to predict the future, or to say, not thinking our inner observer, our consciousness, is physical defined, really makes as little sense as talking about anything that you can't measure.
Because if you can't measure it, you can't observe it, if you can't observe it, it does not exist in relation to those who can't observe it.
So some might come with an example of atoms, you can't measure those with your senses, but they do exist. Now I'd ask how do you know about atoms? Because they can be observed, through certain methods, or at least that is what I think is how it is.
What I am talking about is something that can never be observed, if it can't ever be observed it can't react to anything. If it could react to something then observing this something, we would be able to see the reaction, thereby measure what can't be measured.
That may be a bad example, I am not certain, though what I try to conclude is that your current perception is your current reality.
However continueing, with the soul being physical defined, as to current knowledge, most likely somewhere in the brain, it means that if this something in the brain stops it activity, the most likely outcome would be no soul, that is you stop existing.
And that is what I try to show, that sadly it to me seems to be the most likely outcome of death to be nothing at all, for all eternity (unless someone find a way to reconstruct conscioussness).
Now I can't say there does not exist a heaven or hell, some higher power might in fact be reassembling our consciousness at our parts of the universe, however I do not find it likely, because I cannot make any observation to justify it, therefore it makes no sense to assume, at least for me.
That means, due to the risk of death being nothing at all for all eternity, you basicly end up with the following:
To choose not exist is like risking your very existance for escaping an emotion defined through the tools you have been presented.
Do not confuse your tools with yourself, the emotion of anger is not you, it is how your genes have been written (and changed) to respond to environmental factors. Your anger is yelling louder than anyone outside of you can ever do, but in reality, your anger does not differ from the rock on the ground or the water in the lake, or the girl that says you should cut your hair. Because they are all not you, they are just observations that gets interpreted by your body, that is:
Environment -> Body -> Observer/Soul
Dealing with a problem like this, there are 3 ways.
1) You can change the environment, but it is not the girls fault that you get angry when you hear her irritating voice.
2) You can destroy the Observer/Soul (suicide), however from your own perspective, you might risking something a lot worse.
3) You can change the interpretation of the body, also known as anger management.
Now the easy way it probably suicide, the second easiest is probably get up and move away from the girl, but if it is a true problem, the problem will follow you and you'll experience it no matter where you go, maybe ending up killing a whole bunch of people.
All these ways are "easy", because they don't require of you to do something that goes against your body (at least not in this context), however all these ways are also the wrong way in my opinion, the right way is to change how your body interpretates the information it lets you observe.
Had it not been you, but a giant robot you were controlling and due to an error in the system, every time a bird came in to a certain distance, the robot would start shooting at everything around, you would not solve the problem by destroying everything around so there is nothing to shoot at, you would not smash the robot into pieces so it can't do it anymore, you'd not destroy every bird on the planet, no you'd simply fix the error in the robots system.
It is however much more easy when it is not yourself, we are creatures of habit and when we have done something for so long, it gets very hard to change, changing a robot is easy because it is not our body, but learning to not respond to feelings you've been responding to the last 15 years of your life is extremely hard.
Though how hard it may ever be, I still believe it to be right way, of course in the future we might have the knowledge to produce the technology and the ressources to make it useable, so we can change these things with little effort, but until then it is our responsibility to, at least ourself, and as well to everyone else, to do the best we can, to do it right.
Now for our own perspective in relation to other people, I find the argument much more simpler and more beautiful. Most of us have someone we love, I understand love as not requiring love of others, but loving others, that is been willingly to sacrifice the one true thing that we are fighting for (to optimize), our freedom, for those you love.
Loving everyone would really be the ideal way to go, though I'd maybe never have such courage to be able to sacrifice myself in such a way for everyone, being able to forgive everything, only working for the common good and not for controlling through emotions. Though I can do that for those I love, those who are close to me.
And I am certain that most of us have someone close to us, someone that we love. For these people, I'd never commit suicide, because I'd at all times go towards the line of actions that optimize their freedom.
That is, even if someone I love, doesn't love me, I'll still do what I can to make their life as good as possible, even if that requires of me to stay away from them. If someone I love is hurt in any way, I'll do what I can to fix the problem. To say short, optimize their freedom, even for the cost of mine.
And that is really the beauty of the argument, because that means as long as you really love someone, you can't ever commit suicide, because that is removing your own ability to sacrifice your own freedom for those you love, which you'd never do as you love them.
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Living time backwards
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 08, 2010 01:38 PM |
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Oh for ****'s sake!
That's one long message that is in the completely wrong thread!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 08, 2010 01:55 PM |
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Umm, he started the thread. 
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Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted February 08, 2010 04:30 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
84. To try to commit suicide. +
Achievement unlocked: Fail at everything (survive a suicide attempt)
Actually thanks to that failed attempt my bombs never fail anymore
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 09, 2010 04:33 AM |
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ohforf : the message is a bit long but I completely agree 
By the way, it's actually not so hard to change yourself. it seems hard, but when you know how to do, it doesn't seem so hard anymore.
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Guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted February 09, 2010 08:34 AM |
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A huge turning point of mine from recent memory was deciding to stay in college to continue my education. I really wanted to drop out two years ago, but I changed my mind after taking some time off. I'm realizing that walking away from my studies would seriously have ruined my future, and I'm very glad I didn't act on such strong impulses. Now, I'm frequently absorbed in continuing my undergrad work and thinking about post-graduate studies. I've had the pleasure of meeting and working with a number of remarkable individuals over the past few semesters who continue to inspire me academically. Right now, nothing is set in stone, but I relish in the possibilities that may await me in the years ahead.
-Guitarguy
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted February 09, 2010 11:28 AM |
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Quote:
Thanks! 
Quote:
By the way, it's actually not so hard to change yourself. it seems hard, but when you know how to do, it doesn't seem so hard anymore.
You're most welcome to elaborate on your own experiences.
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Living time backwards
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted February 09, 2010 11:40 AM |
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Ever look at somebody you have known GOOD for five years (ie be friends with) and can't remember their name? Feel completely and utterly abandoned by your friends, family, and religion? Been completely and totally confused about who you are deep inside, with nobody to turn to or to talk to? Been physically attacked by more then one person at a time for being different? All in a short space of time?
Unless it is a cry for attention, and not a serious attempt, you don't think about what suicide will do to others. You just want the pain to stop. You are not thinking philosophically (spelling), or about the bigger picture, or about anything other then the fact that you are in pain (physical, emotional, or both) constantly. You even hate yourself, more then you have hated anybody or anything in your entire life.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 09, 2010 11:52 AM |
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Well, it's difficult - at least I find it difficult. (I'm back to the original issue, by the way - suicide might be better dealt with in a separate thread)
Take for example this: 10 years ago I stopped smoking, after having smoked continually for 30 years. There was no medical or financial reason, which means there was no "hard encouragement"; I did it, simply because I wanted it.
Now, you might think, that I'm proud of that feat, simply stop smoking and never ever look back... but I am not, for the simple reason that it was EASY (for me).
It was completely easy, I had no problem whatsoever doing it, I have never had a problem since then being with people who do smoke (I only don't like the stink of cold and stale smoke in flats of smokers and in my clothes after spending an evening in their company), and I don't have a problem with guests smoking in my flat either.
Because it WAS so easy, I'm not proud of it. Add to that the fact that I'm not exactly proud of having smoked 30 years before that, the bottom line is, that I'm thankful it WAS so easy and I didn't have a problem with that.
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Ok, I'm proud of the working discipline I have. I'm my own boss and can work when I want, and my usual working habits when I was younger was waiting until the last possible moment to start a task, then hurry under pressure to get things done (mostly making it due ro a well-developed inner clock).
I've changed that, probably against my nature, to a disciplined working schedule, and I'm really proud of having accomplished that, because I've never become what I am now without that kind of discipline.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 09, 2010 05:14 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
By the way, it's actually not so hard to change yourself. it seems hard, but when you know how to do, it doesn't seem so hard anymore.
You're most welcome to elaborate on your own experiences.
That being said, I'm not sure how to explain, but you have to be convinced it's for your own good. if you are not convinced that changing your mind to become more open, more optimistic, less selfish, etc... will make you feel better, then it will be very hard, but if you are convinced of it, it's not really hard.
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A huge turning point of mine from recent memory was deciding to stay in college to continue my education. I really wanted to drop out two years ago, but I changed my mind after taking some time off. I'm realizing that walking away from my studies would seriously have ruined my future, and I'm very glad I didn't act on such strong impulses. Now, I'm frequently absorbed in continuing my undergrad work and thinking about post-graduate studies. I've had the pleasure of meeting and working with a number of remarkable individuals over the past few semesters who continue to inspire me academically. Right now, nothing is set in stone, but I relish in the possibilities that may await me in the years ahead.
actually, it was the contrary for me, I wanted to continue my studies, but was forced to stop because they thought I wasn't good enough whereas I was, but just didn't know how to prove it.
that made me angry, but now I really think schools are overated and the educational system is deficient (at least in france)
you are just wasting years, learning lots of things which will most likely be of little use in your life and following ideas from other people instead of developping your owns. also, schools put very little emphasis on truely important values.
of course, learning is important, but you should be able to do it the way you want, not the way many schools force you to follow.
The aim of schools should be to allow people to achieve their true potential, and instead, it looks like they are producing machines who will behave just like the society, or the government expect them to behave.
note : I'm not saying it's the case of all schools and teachers, some of them are good, but I fear they may not be the majority.
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ohforfsake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted February 11, 2010 11:15 AM |
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I remember when I started my current studies, I had this idea of the future where everything went smooth like it always had, I'd get the things done I wanted, get to my goals etc.
Then a fear struck me, what if it was impossible for me to fail? I mean how should I know if it was or wasn't? It seemed very much from that point of view, that in the end it would just be a question of doing or not, and I certainly would not, so I started to question my own free will, questioning if everything in the world was preset and I had no choice in it.
Because it seemed so easy, just do what I'd planned and everything would probably work out, it made me so afraid of actually having no choice that I stopped doing what I wanted to do. Just to see if I could fail. Then I started to question when had I failed? When I was at a point of no return? And from what perspective? A single class? The whole education? My entire life?
Later I realised, that for me, the question is not about how difficult it is, neither is it about if I deep down make the decision or if the world is too deterministic for that. No for me it is a question about doing what I want, and as long as it is something I want to do, I don't care if it is easy to do, or if in reality I have no choice in doing so.
That is, I don't care if I maybe just am a puppet of destiny or not, as long as the actions I do is also those I want to do (of course one could be completely tricked, but I am not going into that sort of thing).
Anyway it was that it had seemed very easy to get where I was and to continue on that path that made me rise this question.
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Living time backwards
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Guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted February 13, 2010 09:52 AM |
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Quote:
you are just wasting years, learning lots of things which will most likely be of little use in your life and following ideas from other people instead of developping your owns. also, schools put very little emphasis on truely important values.
That has been my argument for a while now, especially based on my own experiences. My university demands the completion of a wide spectrum of courses in order for me to graduate, including many subjects I really struggle at: the sciences, foreign language, and oral communication. This basically amounts to a couple of year's worth of semesters packed with courses that fall outside my major, history, and they're definitely not a breeze to handle.
Sure enough, I got fed up with studying all these non-essential subjects a few years ago. It all seemed very pointless, and I knew I had much more to do before it was over. Two years later, I'm still feeling similarly about it, but my new passion to study history has given me more drive to tackle these evils.
Dropping out wouldn't have worked for me, in this case. Since I'm basically good at studying humanities and little else, I doubt I'd have found a good trade after walking away from college. The job market is a mess right now in my state, so I'm glad I didn't take any unnecessary risks.
-Guitarguy
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted February 13, 2010 09:59 AM |
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What if you're still unable to get a job once you finish College? Will those years have been a waste in your opinion? I know what I myself would do in that sitation...I'd drop out of College and try to get myself a job and work my way from there really. Maybe not the best way to go, but I'd learn a hell of a lot more doing that than stuff in College.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted February 13, 2010 10:42 AM |
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Quote:
What if you're still unable to get a job once you finish College? Will those years have been a waste in your opinion? I know what I myself would do in that sitation...I'd drop out of College and try to get myself a job and work my way from there really. Maybe not the best way to go, but I'd learn a hell of a lot more doing that than stuff in College.
I'm planning on working towards an advanced degree, which looks good to most employers. That's tons of extra work, but I honestly don't see myself being successful with minimal credentials in this day and age (especially given my area of interest). If I stick to task, I should be able to pull something out of this. This is probably the most suitable route for me.
Another reason for staying is that, basically, it's simply more efficient to learn professional methodologies from the department itself. Anyone can read history books at home and learn a bunch of facts, but much of my chosen profession isn't solely about knowing about dates and events. My field goes well beyond that, requiring a thorough grasp of advanced theories and perspectives that don't come naturally to just anybody. I couldn't learn all of that on my own, and it's not the case where I could get a job and "pick up" on how to do things along the way.
-Guitarguy
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted February 13, 2010 10:47 AM |
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Then there is the typical salary difference. Regardless how good somebody is, that little peice of paper usually means a great deal more money.
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Message received.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 14, 2010 03:50 AM |
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That little piece of paper does actually mean something, y'know.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2010 04:34 AM |
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not really. you could get as much knowledge or even more without going to the school
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Guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted February 14, 2010 05:38 AM |
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not really. you could get as much knowledge or even more without going to the school
That's true, but only to a point. Sure, anyone can acquire knowledge outside of academia, particularly if they desire to learn for their own personal fulfillment. Professionally, however, you'd still need to undergo all the rigors and pains defined by society. This is especially true of the academic profession, where a college education is necessary for a person to get certification to teach. That's how it is where I'm from.
-Guitarguy
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2010 06:33 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:35, 14 Feb 2010.
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yeah, and that doesn't mean the teachers will be good. how many students complain about bad teachers?
you may know perfectly your speciality, but if you don't care about your students and can't get them interested?
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 14, 2010 06:42 PM |
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Ehm that may be Fauch but I don't see how not going to university is going to make you care more about your students (should the relatively ridicolous notion of you still being able to accuire the same knowledge be true). The "paper" is simply a form of darwinism which I personally find ok. I'm the last person to judge someone due to his grades (you can have 4.0 and still be an intellectual and an intelligent person) but I mean how is an outsider suppose to know that you're one of the very few people who're not what their paper outlines them to be?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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