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| Thread: Achievements / Decisions you're proud of |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2010 04:52 PM |
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But to get these prizes, must you not already be a well respected part of the relevant community?
No. You get a prize for an achievement, and a nominee must be know to the judges (only and obviously).
For public prizes like the Oscar this will involve a certain fame already with the general public, at least for the main prizes, since the prize is given for well-known movie, but the winner may be a newbie as well.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 16, 2010 04:59 PM |
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Certainly the winner may be a "newbie", but what I mean is that, won't it already be known in the relevant circles, let's just here say the scientific community, that a given guy made a given achievement and therefore already have got the credit of the community?
In my eyes, nobel prizes, oscars, etc. are only a way to be known by the public, not the relevant community. As I see it, it is not relevant in the process of separate fraudsters from serious people, but to nurse ones ego, or emotions if you want.
I understand the need of diploma to know for the relevant community if it is worth investing time on the specific person, my concerns are though that these days you measure stuff you could just as well measure in a test you could make before you hire people, in stead of, I think what these companies really need are to know how interested in the subject the given person is, because that is not something a single test can give you.
Edit: Sorry, I can't post no more, I get the no more than 20 posts in 24 hours outside VW message.
What I try to differ here is the difference on what community sees the achievement before/after it gets acknowledged, and then I also try to put focus on the way it is now, I do not think is the correct way.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2010 05:06 PM |
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A diploma is exactly the same thing: the acknowledgement of an achievement.
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Corribus
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posted February 16, 2010 05:12 PM |
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In my eyes, nobel prizes, oscars, etc. are only a way to be known by the public, not the relevant community. As I see it, it is not relevant in the process of separate fraudsters from serious people, but to nurse ones ego, or emotions if you want.
You don't think "the public" is a "relevant community" when it comes to scientific progress? I would argue that, say, a Nobel Prize in Physics makes certain important discoveries more easily embraced by the public at large, which stands to benefit the most from them, really.
And just for the sake of argument, what's wrong with acknowledging excellence, even if it has no practical purpose other than to "nurse ones ego". If a physicist discovers a new fundamental truth behind how an atom is structured, for example, is it so wrong to give the guy a medal and say, "Well done, chap. Keep up the good work!"? What practical purpose, for example, does awarding a soldier a medal of valor have? Ah, it's just to stoke his ego, right, so that he may feel good about the fact that he was wounded in the service of his country, or saved someone's life. Let's get rid of medals, then. Right?
For one thing, it may be argued that that ego-stoking can serve as a motivation for other would-be scientists and soldiers to continue in their efforts towards excellence.
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watcher83
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posted February 16, 2010 05:14 PM |
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Basically I agree to what has been said.
Just one difference:
an academic degree is not just for one person, but for all who meet the criteria as where a prize is just for one from a mass of people meeting the criteria.
I'm starting to think that we are disagreeing for the sake of argument because our views are not that different.
In my country diplomas don't mean much nowadays because everybody with the right connection can buy one.
It's frustrating for people like me who had to work(as in learning) through college, master( I think MBA IS IN ENGLISH NOT SURE) than through 2 years of practice for an older lawyer before being on my own,then to get accepted for PhD etc., but that's the way it is where I'm from so generally I tend to be distrusting of a "comitte" 's judgement on giving awards.
Yes, merituos people should always be praised and awarded but the problem is - who decides who is and based on what?
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 07:04 AM |
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You don't think "the public" is a "relevant community" when it comes to scientific progress?
Ever since your nano thread, which I hope you btw. haven't stopped on completely, it is really good work,I have been more aware of the importance of the regular persons view on different matter.
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I would argue that, say, a Nobel Prize in Physics makes certain important discoveries more easily embraced by the public at large, which stands to benefit the most from them, really.
It probably does, but I honestly believe the public is much more easier "manipulated" (I choose to use this term, because I suspect the general public rather wants to be constant confirmed in what to believe than investigate the matter on their own hand) through constant bombardment of how great X and Y is, rather than having a once in a year(?) event telling them what to think. Especially as the general public likewise tend to forget easy, at least that is how it often seems about elections. Maybe that is just due to the power of habit though, I can't say.
So yes, I think you're right that it can be relevant in the long run, but I don't think it is major relevance in comparrision of other methods.
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And just for the sake of argument, what's wrong with acknowledging excellence, even if it has no practical purpose other than to "nurse ones ego".
Nothing at all, as long as you do so voluntarily. What I want to differ is if the given person free willingly decides to reduce their freedom to pursue a goal that, at least to me (and thereby reduce) seems random in origin. Like it would seem random if someone really likes the sound of frogs (getting some drug release in the brain) and decides to follow upon that. Or if they are a slave of their emotions and thereby might be in for unnecessary problems later on.
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For one thing, it may be argued that that ego-stoking can serve as a motivation for other would-be scientists and soldiers to continue in their efforts towards excellence.
It certainly can, I also know many people who claim to wanting a nobel prize, in my view though, many of them also seems to be in it for the fame and not because they are interested in physics in reality, admitting it could have been anything they'd have choosen, but for some, to me at least, arbitrary reason, they decided upon physics.
Likewise, to compare, I have other friends, who are very interested in money, they study subjects they have never shown interest for, they prepare well for tests, because they really believe money is the need of happiness at which they admit to be targeting. How they choose the specific subject, I am not certain, they could have choosen lots, but no matter what they had choosen, I am certain they'd do well, and they'll sadly probably end up doing something they don't even like, though I hope they'll at least find the joy of their work and hopefully also making it something meaningful for them in time.
Because for me, I can't imagine not doing something that is meaningful for me. I understand the meaningful part might be the fame and/or fortune, but unless it is voluntary decided upon, then I fear person like this might get some crisis during their life, which really could be prevented.
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Fauch
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posted February 17, 2010 02:00 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 14:12, 17 Feb 2010.
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well, I realized lately, that it is not enough to tell other people their mistakes so that they can fix them, but you should also encourage them and congratulate them for what they did right, especially if they are really implicated in what they do
(I still have troubles to do it spontaneously)
but that's better than "friends" who encourage you to follow the bad way. (in the given examples, the rich father who pays so that his son can get his diploma)
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Nothing at all, as long as you do so voluntarily. What I want to differ is if the given person free willingly decides to reduce their freedom to pursue a goal that, at least to me (and thereby reduce) seems random in origin. Like it would seem random if someone really likes the sound of frogs (getting some drug release in the brain) and decides to follow upon that. Or if they are a slave of their emotions and thereby might be in for unnecessary problems later on.
Actually, it is exactly what I'm doing. following what you call a goal with a random origin. I don't know why, but I feel I have to do it, that it's the best thing to do.
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Likewise, to compare, I have other friends, who are very interested in money, they study subjects they have never shown interest for, they prepare well for tests, because they really believe money is the need of happiness at which they admit to be targeting. How they choose the specific subject, I am not certain, they could have choosen lots, but no matter what they had choosen, I am certain they'd do well, and they'll sadly probably end up doing something they don't even like, though I hope they'll at least find the joy of their work and hopefully also making it something meaningful for them in time.
it sounds like they are wrong, but maybe there is more to it than what you say.
why do they want lot of money? is that just for the power? to feel they are over other people?
if yes, then I think they are wrong, and they'll probably be unhappy, even if they succeed.
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Because for me, I can't imagine not doing something that is meaningful for me. I understand the meaningful part might be the fame and/or fortune, but unless it is voluntary decided upon, then I fear person like this might get some crisis during their life, which really could be prevented.
or better. meaningful to other people. but you should probably care about yourself first, then help other people to achieve their goals. except that when most people finally get what they want, they start desiring something else. personally, I try to not be under the grip of desires, and think I manage quite well. it's especially difficult to do in our society which is based a lot on mass consumption.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 02:25 PM |
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Even if the goal is random in origin, if you agree with it, and don't follow it unquestionable, I personally see no problem, and have no saying no matter what of course.
Like emotions, they don't have to be bad, as long as you don't follow them blindly, but use them as inspiration in my opinion.
All this starts to sound a lot like Steve Pavlina  (*click on the smiley*)
But I stopped reading his articles because for me he got a bit weird, but his goals are basicly the same as you just wrote about helping others.
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Fauch
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posted February 17, 2010 02:27 PM |
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well, as long as your random goal doesn't involve killing people, or other bad things...
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 06:01 PM |
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Yeah, but that does also seem unlikely, yet it does sadly happen.
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TheDeath
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posted February 17, 2010 08:16 PM |
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The original contention was that a diploma or an academic degree - and, by implication, a formal education - has no value. Well, I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. I worked my ass off for the greater part of a decade to earn my degree, and it does actually mean something to be able to hold up an authenticated piece of paper which verifies to the world that I spent a lot of time and energy trying to master something that's both important to me personally and also to the world at large.
The piece of paper is not useful to the world at large at all
Let me clarify my point: you didn't work your ass off making that paper... you worked your ass off for knowledge (which can be used obviously, otherwise it's pointless) or projects... so you have a "portofolio", which is where your work has gone. Not in the paper.
Not exactly what the point was, just adding my 2 cents
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 08:43 PM |
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True, but without the paper, how do you know what qualities each person has?
I, for one, would suggest exactly what the paper does, giving a score on a test (that's at least my experience).
So if you'd want to work some place, the company would set you through a test to find out your current knowledge, your intelligence (rate of learning, or adapbility, that is how I use the word) and finally they'd look on your papers that tells what interests you.
I think this way would be far superior to the current way, where you just get to know how people did on lots and lots of different tests on different subjects, not really differing if it was due to interest, high intelligence, or heck even cheating (as in buying your papers, which this thread emphasizes on).
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TheDeath
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posted February 17, 2010 08:48 PM |
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True, but without the paper, how do you know what qualities each person has?
What is this quality used for? Making such papers? Or doing some real work? If real work -- show it the work you've done.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 09:37 PM |
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Well said! I agree.
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Corribus
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posted February 17, 2010 09:50 PM |
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Let me clarify my point: you didn't work your ass off making that paper...
Yeah, I get the point you're making, but it's a triviality, akin to arguing what is the value of a dollar bill, which clearly has a value beyond the material value of the paper it's printed on.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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fred79
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posted June 03, 2014 09:49 PM |
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god damn it, cor. after your post, here... how am i supposed to compete? i can never be that funny. 
cor, i know that you're a mod now and all, but you shouldn't stop trying to produce posts of this magnitude. seriously. that post ranks with the most humorous **** i've seen on the entire internet. your post's right up there with the "butt-fingering Hulk" comic, ffs. 
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