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| Thread: NEWY MAPA! Boomerang [h5] |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 17, 2010 10:02 AM |
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Edited by natalka at 10:27, 17 May 2010.
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I know that better than you no need to explain it..the point is that your conditions for haven to win are very very favourable towards knights and are unlikely to happen and necro needs 0 luck to win this matchup.
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted May 17, 2010 10:48 AM |
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Commenting on a map you haven't play? Really?! Here is idea: Try it yourself and find out. Maybe Vangelis would like to test his theory. Let me know how it worked out.
Hehe, editing. Long live edit function 
Anyway, those where just examples from the top of my head. Beauty of the map is it diversity. Gives really a lot of options how to play. And the question was: how knights can beat necro. There you go puppy. Now go take some pills, world will look much better after it. No need to be rude to nice people. It really isn't their fault 
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted May 17, 2010 12:22 PM |
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no need for you to be rude either pera. My turn to comment on our game then...
So me and pera decided to play a game in boomerang to test how overpowered necro is (if it is). I chose necro and he chose Sylvan after my suggestion. FOr the record, the game was unofficial (no report) and i would be happy for necro to lose in order to continue playing this map.
My understanding of a test is to test everything under normal conditions without taking into consideration things that wouldn't happen all the time. to make that a little clearer, i will give an example. If you want to find out who is better at running, men or women you should do it with an average man against an average woman and try to keep the random aspects as limited as possible.
Now, in our game pera, in his effort to win, did some things that totally ruined the test.
1) although we could have fought week 4, he run and fought me week 5 with extra army
2) he found and equipped ring of celerity AND ring of speed. Imagine those two in a very good initiative-wise faction such as sylvan
3) he used a bunch of paladins he found somewhere in order to fight my dark magic.
4) he changed tha week using the astrologer, into the week of green dragon
RESULTS:
1) A very good and strategically planned game from the side of pera. he played well, he thought everything and he won. COngrats on that.
2) that game proved nothing as it is amazingly rare for a fuction to get: paladins, ring of speed, ring of celerity AND tier 7 week from astrologer.
Even after all that i can't say that the game was a slaughter. This leads me to the conclusion that if his luck in finding things wasn't that rare and if our difference as players wasn't that big, necro would and will always win in a battle against two similar players under normal circumstances,
How is that for "abstract theories"?
PS. the map is not mirrored in both sides. this says a lot!
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 17, 2010 12:53 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 13:22, 17 May 2010.
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hmmm, Pera, now you are starting the insults I didn`t address you neither wanted to attack Diegis. As a matter of fact I don`t need to play the map to know how this match-up will go. Judging from experience, which I gathered playing maps where game reaches its climax from week 3 till week 7 ,also to add features like: joiners, level 6 dwellings , gold mines...etc. are taken into account of the judgement and I may conclude that on this map it will very hard for Haven to win of course not impossible..but Necro starts with a big advantage ...creeping, skilling - very important. ( very close to dream build) I want to explain with example. Haven must take war machines or consisted losses may appear. So haven loses one skill slot which can be used for either Enlightment or Defence.[logs(no need of explaining),light,attack(or else you will be doing no dmg  ),war machines,5ths skill slot - Enlightment or defence.] Two skills which u definitely need ,preferably both of them.
EDIT I am absent minded these days graduating university and writing diplome work(thesis)). Units commanded by Knights aren`t very fast ,though deadly ,but but good combination of dark spells + phoenix or arcane armor will win u the game. For example mass confusion is very good but suffering even better  . Especially if opponent doesn`t have r.might then game over  . If you find paladins with vampirism then go phoenix and kill them even against storm wind it is deadly enough with your huge spellpower. Timed puppet with swift mind can do lots of damage in the enemy camp too. There is a lot more...last but not least the irritating slippers + decay combo which deals very good with the paladin stack that were laying hands here and there .
We played 2 games with Vex this same matchup.
He played dark/light in both with the haven heroes ,I think both Vittorio, which was very creative but necro had the edge especially in the first case. 3 COTN and one puppet and he was done... he played very well but was doomed from day 1 imo.
Other matchup was closer but Orson got really hude def and sp on week 3 on master of disguise (30def,30sp) perfect game etc.
So to sum up, If I start necro in this pair , I will feel very confident right from the start.
In conclusion, I don`t want to insult u nor attack you...please don`t start pointless flame wars...Caesars is coming I hope we both play each other there ...we can start slowly to bury the axe of war...
This summary of the matchup was intended for a lot of the fresh blood I saw in forums. They are eager to play in TOH but we as Veterans don`t share those secrets that we all know well. If we want to keep TOH alive we must share such things or else will bury it down till season 6-1
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted May 17, 2010 03:04 PM |
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Quote:
If you want to find out who is better at running, men or women you should do it with an average man against an average woman and try to keep the random aspects as limited as possible.
Wrong, test need to be done on all segments. Newbies players have better chances with factions easier to learn. On medium level, we get another situation, other factions win more. On pro level situation is different again ...
Quote:
2) that game proved nothing as it is amazingly rare for a fuction to get: paladins, ring of speed, ring of celerity AND tier 7 week from astrologer.
Heroes 5 is complex game, always something happen, Pera get nice staff. You should get your good staff too, this is the main goal of game.
Quote:
This leads me to the conclusion that if his luck in finding things wasn't that rare and if our difference as players wasn't that big, necro would and will always win in a battle against two similar players under normal circumstances,
How is that for "abstract theories"?
Now you build another abstract theory ... Results of this game is simple, Necromancers loose for now 1-0. This is all that matter, they are looser's ... Why they loose, not really matter, important is final result ...
I glad to see Pera and Vangelis started to study problem in practice, like true scientist's, not like cheap politicians telling us fairy tale theories Congrats for both.
P.S. Kick some asses on battlefield, this is how real man's solve the problems
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 17, 2010 03:46 PM |
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Quote:
Results of this game is simple, Necromancers loose for now 1-0. This is all that matter, they are looser's ... Why they loose, not really matter, important is final result ...
That is a funny thing to say on a game largely decided by luck with two opponents on different skill categories.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted May 17, 2010 04:46 PM |
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I played some game with and against necro. The key is that necro can and a good necro player should break both garrison on week 3, cathcing opponent's town before week 4. Thats almost impossible to counter, since needs 12-14 days weeks to build up castle without upgrades or magic.
Also refugee camps boost necro, and - as Vangelis pointed out - second town - which is available for necro on week 1 - may provide some extra troops, which are not available for other factions.
So, if someone says that I need to play a game for my life and the map is boomerang, I would choose necro for sure.
(I lost a game against Fire's necro with my beloved dungeon, cant do anything about cotn)
But otherwise its an interesting map, just dont play against necro there.
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Sir_Kiril_bg
Hired Hero
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posted May 17, 2010 09:26 PM |
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Its true the map is very good toward necros.When i played vs Vangelis on it i didn't had even the slight issue of worrying about spells and i didn't even bothered to build magic guild trough the whole game.Resurrection is placed in the necro spell books by default and that is the main spell they use to preserve their army for the end.What if they didn't have it by default?Then i guess loss can still be evaded with good micromanagement of army.I broke both garrisons and i was even able to take on the black dragons guarding stuff thanks to sandros cloak imo there is way too much powerfull artifacts which needs to be gone rings, staff and so on.The artifacts merchants need to go too.The fact that you can buy arties from cities is enough, i was also almost able to complete the power dragons set without 2items thx to that.The final battle was slaughter.I had almost triple the army strentgh by the time he broke his garrisson i had taken the goodies out.
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted May 17, 2010 09:37 PM |
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where have YOU been kiril? i haven't seen you on msn for a week now!
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 17, 2010 09:52 PM |
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Kiril add me to your msn pls! Both of us are from Bulgaria we have to support each other.
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted May 18, 2010 12:33 AM |
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@Vangelis: I don't think I was rude to you at any point. You must have misunderstood something. About our game: You seems to forgot some, and didn't quite understood rest. All in all, almost every thing you wrote about our game is wrong. I will elborate:
Ring of celerity: is a preset, everybody can get, so no luck there getting it.
Week of dragons: Change it, yes. Never used any of extra troops from it, yes. Like I already told you.
Paladins: Not a bunch, put 2. From refuge camp. Considering every side has up to 6 of it, times 5 weeks, + whole are with possible joiners, not much luck getting them also.
Ring of speed: So many relics, artifact merchant, utopia, possible academy/dungeon town, as other towns,its really 50:50 chance approximately to get it. So average luck at best. Not to mention Insa significantly reduced value of both rings, by decreasing attack and morale while equipped. If I had chance to scout your hero (was in hurry to finish before you had to go) with secondary for a stuff, I would probably go with +attack axe, and couple more points not reduced, + some other modification in other arties going with that. Would work better.
Fight week 5 not week 4: Like I already told you. I didn't pick favorite enemies, so I didn't won't to fight without it. Like you wouldn't won't to fight without all troops gain from necromancy and all transformed from living units.
And finally, it really was far from close battle, since you only lasted one cast of my hero. You lost 80% from your army, while I lost couple of ponnies.
So, as you can see, you really got it all wrong.
@puppy: Even though you're pretty confident in your experience, you should really checked the map before commenting. Just an example: You are commenting on how haven will lose on skill slot to w/m to be able to creep fast. When if you knew map, you would know, that right after first garrison,there is a memory mentor, which makes your point irrelevant. I even tried summoning with inferno And it would work well, if sim turns didn't broke in worst possible moment, and Kisp caught me with 2-3 tiles away from mentor.
Bottom line, map is great, yes necro is too strong, but nevertheless, its one the most interesting map out there, since it richness in all aspects only gives a player more possibilities then other custom maps. So trashing map without playing, or after a first, superficial glance, or trashing fellow players for saying in the end exactly what you said is really uncool.
That's about it. If I remember anything else, I will let you know
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted May 18, 2010 01:03 AM |
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How about this: Sylvan with swift mind, rain of frenzy, sandro cloak. And if you are really lucky pendant of mastery. Game over. And is quite manageable on boomerang
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 18, 2010 08:47 AM |
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You got my post all wrong too. It is not only because of the single lost skill it is about other things too.
There is memory mentor but haven needs a lot of money - so you can easily spend 20 K in mentor to get nothing .Not a very tempting idea.
Nobody talks about how sylvan will beat necro I agree with that.
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted May 18, 2010 08:47 AM |
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what is the reason to talk like that pera? since when ring of speed and ring of celerity and paladins and extra week and favorable week and having the opportunity to flee and and and... is common?
No one accused you of cheating or anything. WHat i said is that we started a game to simply test necro and you did EVERYTHING you could to beat it. strategically this is correct but taking advantage of so many random choices is not.
the map is clearly in favor of necro and everyone with a gigantic luck. both suggest that it is far from balanced.
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted May 18, 2010 08:51 AM |
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by the way if anyone knows about football (soccer) i can give you a pretty good example of how this game didn't prove anything due to butchering of the testing
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted May 18, 2010 12:17 PM |
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Kispagat said that necro can come to your hometown before week 4 . It will be very hard for haven to win
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted May 18, 2010 12:23 PM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 12:24, 18 May 2010.
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Thx Pera for showin them some...but trully, I doubt they are watchin.
Firstly, Nat, you need to play this map , just give it a try.
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted May 19, 2010 07:27 PM |
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as a player,
my overall 1st impression about map gameplay..
such a nicely imbalanced map.
then i congratulated me by left hand shaking the right
after 3 year of hommV, i wouldnt like play crimson&clover, but somthing more twisted
as for necros refugee camp help-alot thoery, it works only in theory. end weeks are too fast&furious to mess around collecting shrooms with scouts. also you skip other goodies to get + i onced had 6 pit lords being devil
and dont forget the 'shiet happens' rule. play it with no such rule
and vangela, i may look gay but am not so dont you make a pass on me
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fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
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posted May 20, 2010 07:50 AM |
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Quote:
my overall 1st impression about map gameplay..
such a nicely imbalanced map.
then i congratulated me by left hand shaking the right
after 3 year of hommV, i wouldnt like play crimson&clover, but somthing more twisted
as for necros refugee camp help-alot thoery, it works only in theory. end weeks are too fast&furious to mess around collecting shrooms with scouts. also you skip other goodies to get + i onced had 6 pit lords being devil
and dont forget the 'shiet happens' rule. play it with no such rule
and vangela, i may look gay but am not so dont you make a pass on me
well thats how the map makers get treated..... thats the prize to pay for spedning hours after hours making maps... and they doit for free....
Insa U're an damn good map maker Period....
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted May 20, 2010 08:43 AM |
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no need to make such statements Fiur. It is obvious that you actually made it for yourself and not for others. The fact that you feel that no one appreciated your maps (as you told me once) doesn't mean that the same happened with everyone plus it doesn't mean that everyone makes a map should be appreciated. Please, when someone finds bugs in one of your maps and complains, then you can include your map making in this.
Finally, no one said that Insa is a bad map maker. Please try to read better. If he intended for the map to be imbalanced (as i think he did), then he is actually a good map maker. the problem would be if he tried to make a balanced map and found boomerang!
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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