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mvassilev
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posted February 10, 2011 08:25 AM |
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You can't call yourself a Christian and then turn around and say that part of Christianity is wrong.
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kodial79
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posted February 10, 2011 08:35 AM |
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The Passage is Leviticus 20:13 and says this: If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
These are the words that God said to Moses on Mount Sinai, according to... I don't know who, but they're official since they're written in the Holy Bible.
God didn't say any about lesbians though. Guess, God digs lesbians! Well, he's a guy too, after all! 
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 09:29 AM |
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Well, it's not THAT easy - today even the Jews can live with homosexuality.
We have to consider that Leviticus are so-to-speak special rules for the Chosen People. Christians, however, are Christians and not supposed to, for example, stone adultresses.
So while, as a Christian, you will hold the view that homosexuality isn't in god's favor and therefore sin and immoral, you should also hold the view that you are not supposed to judge them, because it's god's "grudge", not theirs.
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kodial79
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posted February 10, 2011 09:46 AM |
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Quote:
Well, it's not THAT easy - today even the Jews can live with homosexuality.
We have to consider that Leviticus are so-to-speak special rules for the Chosen People. Christians, however, are Christians and not supposed to, for example, stone adultresses.
So while, as a Christian, you will hold the view that homosexuality isn't in god's favor and therefore sin and immoral, you should also hold the view that you are not supposed to judge them, because it's god's "grudge", not theirs.
No, God never made clear, as far as I remember, to who were these rule applied. One can assume that he was talking about the entirety of mankind. Also though he didn't name who their executioners would be, I suppose that if you consider penalties described in other passages, that God wants his followers to be the ones who will kill the homosexuals in his name.
He never says "I shall punnish them" but "They shall be put to death" as an order (or threat?) to Moses. In other cases for other kinds of sexuality, he says they shall be exiled. Reading this, I assume that God we'll not be the one who exiles them but their own society and family. Therefore is logically to assume that since this penalty is executed by his followers, then the death penalty for homosexuals would be executed by his followers as well.
Long story short: God wants Christians to kill gay people.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 09:52 AM |
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*Sigh*
Leviticus isn't for Christians, after all they are called Christians, not Mosians or Jahveans.
Leviticus is God's law for his chosen people.
At that point there were no Christians.
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kodial79
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posted February 10, 2011 09:57 AM |
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Quote:
*Sigh*
Leviticus isn't for Christians, after all they are called Christians, not Mosians or Jahveans.
Leviticus is God's law for his chosen people.
At that point there were no Christians.
Well, ain't the Bible a book Holy to the Christians as well? Don't Americans for example, hold it even higher than the Testaments? In the Court of Law, isn't it the Bible one touches and swears to tell the truth?
And why would God have two different set of rules for two very similar religions? Is the God of Jews different than the Father of Christ? One thing is for sure, God requested for homosexuals to be put to death.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 10:47 AM |
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Because God seemingly intended His People to be his priests and prophets, and that part of the Old Testament is dealing with his rules for them. He's not, for example, tasking his people with killing homosexuals all over the world. He just doesn't want homosexuals to be part of his priests and prophets.
Christians now believe that he sent Christ to form a union with the rest of the people of the world the interpretation is, that, having them exiled out of Eden, he know offers them peace and to come back, if they want to.
That's the Christian opinion, mind you.
Christians are following Christ, however, ZEALOUS Christians not only want to follow the son, but please the father as well, that's why they, especially in the past, offen consulted the Old Testament, since Christ is rather general in his teachings.
Christ pretty obviously doesn't want people to run around and stone each other. On the other hand, there is no doubt either, that a couple of things are moral no-nos; homosexuality, adultry, sex outside of marriage and so on - for whatever reason.
Still, Christ teaches people to look at themselves first and foremost. Also, since he's been teaching in a time when Palestine wa under Roman rule, he taught, to give Ceasar, what Ceasar's is, and in what God's is, which means that Christians should accept all worldly rulings and the worldly laws of the state they live in.
The grey zone would come, though, once the Christian religion had the power to influence the worldly laws, and this is where all the trouble comes from, because at such a point when religion can influence the laws or even MAKE the laws, Leviticus and the other Old-Testamentarian stuff seemed a good place where to start.
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kodial79
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posted February 10, 2011 10:51 AM |
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Ok, so, point me to a passage in the Bible that proves your claims? That God meant only for his priests and prophets to be killed if they were homosexuals.
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Doomforge
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posted February 10, 2011 11:14 AM |
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Quote:
You can't call yourself a Christian and then turn around and say that part of Christianity is wrong.
my friend is an atheist.
He's pointing out different historical interpretation of the translations that could turn into this hatred of homosexuals by Christians. Might be for no reason at all.
Also, we're off topic. Won't get far by discussing the Bible over and over again.
How about we drop the Bible talk and focus on the "moral atrocities" Lionofthenorth is suggesting?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 11:21 AM |
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Well. Leviticus is the book after Exodus. Exodus describes Moses leading the Israelites into the Promised Land.
Book Leviticus starts with:
Quote:
1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
I underlined and bolted wwhat maks it clear that this is meant only for the Israelites.
This "rite" of telling Moses, he should go and bring the Israelites his law, is often repeated.
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kodial79
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posted February 10, 2011 11:31 AM |
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Quote:
Well. Leviticus is the book after Exodus. Exodus describes Moses leading the Israelites into the Promised Land.
Book Leviticus starts with:
Quote:
1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
I underlined and bolted wwhat maks it clear that this is meant only for the Israelites.
This "rite" of telling Moses, he should go and bring the Israelites his law, is often repeated.
Then this is meant only for Israelites. But all of them, not just priests and prophets. So what you're telling me here is that God has different rules for different people. But anyway, that's not the topic of this thread.
For this thread it means, if you're gay and a jew then you're pretty much screwed because God wants you dead.
Lesbians are ok though. 
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 11:59 AM |
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You misunderstand this. The Israelites as a whole were meant to be his priests and prophets - after all they were the only ones believing in him at that time
After this, as far as I know, God never spoke to the rest of the world, except, it is claimed, through Jesus.
So, strictly spoken, you can indeed say as a Christian, that the Old Testament is only of historical interest, if at all.
I mean, sure, if you read the Old Testament, trying to fathom what's God's ideas are or were, sure, gays seem to have been high on his sh1t list, but then, everyone was, including his Chosen people, so much so, that he killed them all except one family.
But the bottom line is still, that you are not supposed to run around and kill gays as a Christian, because for Christians JESUS and only Jesus is God's speaker.
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kodial79
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posted February 10, 2011 12:05 PM |
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What about Sodom and Gommorah, they were destroyed for their sexual freedom. Especially noted, homosexuality. They were not israelites, were they?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 12:46 PM |
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Sodom and Gomorra are mentioned, when Jahve made his union with Abraham. We learn only, Genesis 18:20-:
Quote:
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
So there have been a lot of complaints about those two, and god wants to look for himelf wat's actually happing.
After hat Abraham "barters" God down to being merciful, if he finds only ten righteous there.
So God sends two of his angels to Sodom, where Lot was living, and the people of Sodom showed a very keen and rather specific interest in them.
Quote:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
Which is, when they say enough is enough.
So, this means, there has been a ot of lamenting about these cities, and when god sends his messengers for investigation the people of Sodom want Lot to hand them over the angels so they can rape them.
Which seems to validate the complaints about these cities.
That's what we know about this, and I don't think alleged gaiety is the problem ere. 
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kodial79
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posted February 10, 2011 12:50 PM |
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Well, Sodom did give its name to Sodomy.
I suppose though, attempted rape goes far beyond homosexuality.
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Mytical
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posted February 10, 2011 01:01 PM |
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*ahem* This is not "Christianity and homosexuality*. Keep it on the topic of what is currently happening in the community please and thank you.
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Azagal
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posted February 10, 2011 01:01 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 13:02, 10 Feb 2011.
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Sorry dear LGBT-thread participants. I didn't mean to kick this lose and I'm pretty sure neither did Bboy and Bak. I really liked our short discourse and I naively believed it would stay just that.
EDIT: Seriously I need to work on my post timing. Now it looks like I posted this as a reply to Mytical post... damnit.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 01:38 PM |
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Well, I'm sorry.
All I wanted to say is, that while Christians - since this point was mentioned - should be able to tolerate gaiety, basically minding their own business and don't judge and so on, once "the sinners" start to propagate their lifestyle as normal, great and desirable, it is rather understandable - for me -, that a lot of Christians will lift their finger, saying, excuse me, but gaiety is sin and I want to protect my children from it, who should know what god thinks about them if they start parading around so that my children ask me what they are and what they want and stand for.
I mean, that's a general problem right?
If you think that it's important for the immortal soul of your children not to have sex before marriage, everything is alright as long as there is a general code of decency (and then it doesn't matter mnuch what others do as long as no one knows - their business).
But as soon as society suddenly starts to propagate to have as much sex as possible, especially before marriage, you are in trouble.
I don't think that there is a solution to this clash of interests - for the topic this means:
If gays apply for family status and adoption, faithful Christians will more or less automatically protest.
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baklava
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posted February 10, 2011 02:02 PM |
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Imagine what JJ would be like if he knew when to stop.
Wouldn't that be awkward.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 10, 2011 02:09 PM |
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Quote:
Wouldn't that be awkward.
Indeed.
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This thread is pages long: 
