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| Thread: Devastated by HoMM4 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 14, 2002 07:23 AM |
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Edited By: Hexa on 28 Jan 2002
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Devastated by HoMM4
There is no random map generator with the initial release *sob. Yes i know, there was no map generator until the AB expansion came out for heroes3, and not one for the basiv version until shadow of death, but i thought 3do would have realized the popularity of randoms for online players. Guess I was wrong.
Guess I wont be buying HoMM4 til the random map generator is put into an expansion pack  Yes I know there are the campaigns (play them once and thats it) and the maps (same). So what do you do after that? go play another game
grrrr
Edit: revived!@
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Myctteakyshd
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted January 14, 2002 07:39 AM |
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Er ... download amateur maps? Possibly even make some yourself - though that's very much a personal thing. I find mapmaking challenging, satisfying, and time-consuming.
The dominant website for this forum might be Tournament of Honour - but I know of several other homm3 sites which have accumulated hundreds of maps over the few years since homm3's release. I think similar things will happen for homm4; players will make and share maps worth playing. (No random editor does *not* mean no editor! :-) )
How many maps do people play, anyway? I get in about two sessions a week, usually, and just *cannot* keep up with the flow of new maps at AstralWizard alone. I've played about three random maps. If there are people out there who can play all the new human-built maps and still have time for random maps, I and the webmasters like me would love them to download and rate the human maps - a quick, simple, and easy way of putting a bit back into the community. :-)
I am building code for MapHaven (url below) mainly to host homm4 maps. Policy is still negotiable, but I think it'll host any map that isn't overtly offensive and has been completed by a playtester. (Serious discussion of policy over on the Quill mailing list at the moment, significant changes and simplifications to be made. Email me if you have any comments I should take into consideration.)
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 14, 2002 08:49 AM |
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I hate the symmetry of made maps, and the fact that you cant play them more than once if u arent in a competitive system. Also making them doesnt appeal to me, what am I going to do....play them? wouldnt it be boring to play your map after you have made it? I play randoms because they are ....random. I play solely online (and a lot) and playing the AI is the worst thing you can do, even on @))%, so what is the p1oint in playing maps against it? there is no challenge. I am disappointed, but i will get H4 when the expansion comes out
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Myctteakyshd
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sos
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2002 04:15 PM |
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same here
My only hope is that expansion will come soon and it will have random generator. In the last inteview they didn't promise random generator tho, they said there will be one if they can make it good. What can I say, I rather have some random generator (even if not perfect) than not at all. Of course we all hope for a better one than in Heroes 3. 
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted January 14, 2002 04:21 PM |
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expansion will be out in September 2002
if there is no delays that is........
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2002 04:35 PM |
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and if 3DO is still alive, but even if not - people will be interrested in NWC studio anyway - i hope ACTIVISION, or Electronic arts buy them!
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Nebuka
Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
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posted January 15, 2002 12:50 AM |
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Well no random editor but what the hell. There will be atleast 20 maps and couple of campaigns. Probably 2/3 of maps would be multiplayable and when they are finished new maps would come from numerous mapmakers.And who knows, heads in NWC said that AI is greatly improved, maybe there`ll be some new challange in games vs comp...
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted January 15, 2002 01:45 AM |
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Quote:
I hate the symmetry of made maps, and the fact that you cant play them more than once if u arent in a competitive system. Also making them doesnt appeal to me, what am I going to do....play them? wouldnt it be boring to play your map after you have made it? I play randoms because they are ....random. I play solely online (and a lot) and playing the AI is the worst thing you can do, even on @))%, so what is the p1oint in playing maps against it? there is no challenge. I am disappointed, but i will get H4 when the expansion comes out
Well, I don't find it too boring to play my own maps, but then I have given the AI enough boosts to give the human player a run for their money.
Symmetry of made maps? Man, where are you getting your 'made maps'? Try Yd Draig Goch by Keith Williams (The Red Dragon; available from www.astralwizard.com). What's this symmetry bit? Try 'Kid Heretic' by Charles Watkins. It'll blow you away. It's a totally different game. (Very challenging, too.) Try maps that are *actually* made for single-player! Maps where the deficiencies of the AI are addressed or compensated for - I agree that the AI is no competition for a human in a balanced map.
Try 221b Baker St - I haven't made it through that one yet; it sure keeps the pressure on! Talk about difficulty ramping! It's a polished and challenging map.
But - if, when you've given one or more of these a go, you still feel that multiplayer games on random maps is the only attraction for you - then I guess you will wait til the expansion for H4 before trading up. I guess NWC can't please absolutely everyone at once ...
And I *do* think that getting a better random map generator later is preferable to getting a poor one now. I know what map-making's like; I know how hard it is to cover every detail. I know how easily the game can be rendered unwinnable. I've seen a presentation on *one* aspect of the H3 random map generator - we humans understand about not blocking a player into a tiny area; it takes a lot of effort to teach a computer to do the same thing. It's probably as hard as writing an AI from scratch - in one sense, that's exactly what it *is*!
I've seen the mess a human can turn out. You know the quote "To err is human, but to really foul things up takes a computer"? I assure you, it applies here! Generating a playable, winnable map is a *major* task!
September 2002 for an expansion? That seems very early, but if they manage it then a lot of people will be very happy. :-)
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 15, 2002 02:06 AM |
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Ah, i see you missed my point.
The pint is, I've been playing H3 for 3 years solid, and playing against the stupid AI is worse than pulling teeth, It doesnt matter how many ancient behemoths you give it to start, it still makes catastrophic errors in the battle play. I have to play online, against skilled people, who know what they are doing in a battle, and the way to do that and not play randoms, is to play symmetrical maps, You see, everything has to be perfectly balanced in an online game, if there is the slightest advangtage to one player, that can often be the edge for them to win the game, and believe me, they will let you know. It ban be something as simple as having a naga bank where the opponent has a treasury, it can unbalance the whole game. You need to play online to test your skill. Not against the AI, it is no better than useless (yes, even on 200%)
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Myctteakyshd
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted January 15, 2002 02:26 AM |
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naw, but youre missing something
Remember, toh is 3 years old. The older the gaming community gets, the more it learns about the game. Hence that play balancing and stuff for homm4 will come out more in a year from its start. So when we play, we will know far less that we will in 2 years and so for everyone, the first year is a more innocent year until we get better.
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LichKing
Honorable
Known Hero
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posted January 15, 2002 03:22 AM |
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no worries here
I don't think it will take very long for people like jb and jinxer to start cranking out good maps. It's something they both do quite well, and there are many other mapmakers out there besides them to add to the mix.
I enjoy randoms a great deal, myself. The only reason I quit playing them this season is, for the most part, the restarts.
Seems like everytime I tried to play one there were at least 3 restarts before we could get a good game going. That didn't bother me much last season (just ask JTL  ), but I haven't had as much time to play this season and I've pretty much restricted what time I've had to games with people I know and like on maps we both know.
If waiting for an expansion pack is the price of a better Random Map Generator then I am happy to pay it. Of course, Rych, I can understand and sympathize with your position as well, considering your love for Randoms
What bothers me more than anything is the prospect of all the new 'glitches and bugs' that some people are going to be discovering and exploiting until a patch is relased which addresses them.
But even considering that I have to think to myself: A new and better HOMM is on the way.......
Life is good
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SOUND THE CHARGE!! INTO GLORY RIDE!!!
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted January 15, 2002 03:27 AM |
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Well, obviously I'm not as polished a multi-player as Rychenroller is. I'd rather have the treasury - I tend not to attack Naga banks, since nagas are quite tough creatures. Random factors matter too - if we both have a treasury, and yours is the largest, and mine is the smallest, you get more money - though you might lose more creatures.
The point with MP on a random XL map is that there's enough room for the random factors to even out, right? This *can* be done with made-maps too! They don't have to be precisely symmetrical.
But I'm not a ToH player. I've played in six matches over at the AstralWizard league (it would be seven, but I can't run Heroes through a linux firewall). I *was* talking about games played in single-player, which I know far better.
The AI makes catastrophic mistakes in battle, you say? Perhaps they're obvious to you because you have long since deduced the best possible moves for every situation. I know I haven't. I have to pause and weigh up the possibilities, and I probably average one mistake in every interesting battle. (Some of which I re-load as a result. When the situation is balanced on a knife-edge for most of the game, one does, you know!) So when the AI makes its mistakes, I am a) not entirely sure they're mistakes, and b) still having a challenging time. (assuming the map *is* ramped for singleplayer.)
Besides, for me, the best maps are distinguished not by their battles, but by story and design. If it makes me think, if it forces me to try something new, it's probably a good map. If it plays reasonably quickly, rather than having one spend most of one's time housekeeping or mopping up, that leads to a more enjoyable game. If it has a story that meshes well with the Heroes universe, and is reasonably fleshed out with a few characters and a bit of motivation, that's a good thing. "Five is the Principle" is a good example of all this - though possibly a little easy for you.
Have you *ever* played a puzzle-map? "When Champions Fail" sets new standards in this area.
I think my point was that you should give single-player maps a(nother) chance. And I don't mean professional standalone maps - they tend to rate a mere seven or eight out of ten. I mean the ones that show what the game is *really* capable of. I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound much like you've played this class of map.
Once you've done that, once you've played a few - *then* feel free to say that the random map generator is the only thing that makes HOMM worthwhile for you, if that's still what you think, and that the AI is incapable of providing you with an enjoyable game. After all, everyone has different tastes.
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted January 15, 2002 03:41 AM |
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Quote:
I don't think it will take very long for people like jb and jinxer to start cranking out good maps. It's something they both do quite well, and there are many other mapmakers out there besides them to add to the mix.
Er ... that's exactly the sort of map I'm *not* talking about. I had a little bit of a discussion with skao_low on this matter. He says he can make good, detailed large maps in a week. I'd probably rate such a map about 7, *maybe* 8 - I'm trying to talk about the kind of map that recieves a 9, because there's a world of difference. And one of the differences is the amount of time sunk into the map - often a handful of months for a large map. It shows. It's the difference between good and great - between playable and memorable - between cadbury's and belgian chocolate.
*My* biggest problem with HOMM4 is that it'll be six months before we develop a collection of *really* good maps for it. And it'll take more than a year before the *very* best maps appear. However - I *do* think it will be worth the wait! :-)
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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LichKing
Honorable
Known Hero
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posted January 15, 2002 04:15 AM |
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looooool
Didn't you say you don't play multiplayer? If so, how can you rate jb's or jinxer's maps, calling them a 7(if I remember correctly)? Have you tried them?
Just my opinion here, but to me the worst multiplayer map has got to be far better than the best human vs AI map.....
Games against the AI are just.....no fun. After playing against human opponents the comp is just too easy--even given huge bonuses to try to sway things in the comp's favor.
There's an old cliche that goes along the lines of "Billions and billions of Chinese can't be wrong". Look at the number of people enrolled in ToH and other online tournaments and tell me which is more popular--single player games or online multiplayer ones.
No offense intended here, of course. I'm just stating my opinion and should probably keep my mouth shut because this is sounding somewhat harsh. It isn't meant to come across that way, though.
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SOUND THE CHARGE!! INTO GLORY RIDE!!!
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 15, 2002 04:25 AM |
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I guess we play at the opposite end of the heroes spectrum. I thrive on online play against tough opponents, where if you make the smallest mistake, you know the game is over, it hightens your skills, knowing u gotta play perfect everytime, otherwise you are taken to the cleaners. If I try to play the AI after a game against Yawacko, or Midnight or Andi or Ves, its pointless, it cant be done, it is such a let down after playing quality players and after 3 years I need the cutthroat competition to keep me interested. There are so many people who have drifted out of heroes online play because of sheer boredom. you cant play the AI....its not replayable. Whats the fun of putting 100 ancients on a map you have made, where you can blind the, and the AI isnt good enough to dispel or heal?
Anyway, randoms keep me interested because of the variables in them, sure you get unblanced ones, sure you get ones where you are locked in your area by 30 mino kings, 4 hexes from town, but most of the time you are playing an understanding player, and a restart is no prob. H4 maps might keep me interested for a few months, but i doubt it will be long.
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Myctteakyshd
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted January 15, 2002 04:58 AM |
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If u want rychen I can randomly generate maps for u 
most randoms throw stuff everywhere for no reason anyways, hehe, but b4 you worry, you should see and try heroes 4, you never know how gameplay will be, or if there are options to make a pre made map more random than it seems.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted January 15, 2002 05:07 AM |
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This is true jb...
I remember once you took a random map and edited it a bit to see what you could come up with, the result was a pretty good game between me u and Andi, so i guess there is always the option of creating a randomish map. But you are right, maybe H4 should be given a chance, they say it has some more roleplaying aspects to it, and its a bit more intricate. I guess we will have to wait and see.
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Myctteakyshd
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 15, 2002 05:47 AM |
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Aww don't worry guys i'm sure there will be plenty of scenario's & challenging campaigns until september.
I kind of dought it that the expansion will delay because, they had new things going on for heroes 4 & it is being tested & worked out.
The expansion wont need to be tested.
Hope they have new towns in the expansion
Please no more archangels.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted January 15, 2002 06:10 AM |
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Quote:
Didn't you say you don't play multiplayer? If so, how can you rate jb's or jinxer's maps, calling them a 7(if I remember correctly)? Have you tried them?
Not those, particularly. I haven't played *much* multiplayer. I'm quite prepared to acknowledge that playing on the cutting edge of a multiplayer game is exciting, and one can make a good multiplayer map in short order.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough - it certainly isn't my intention to tread on anyone's toes - I *review* maps from a single-player perspective. I know enough to state, in a review, whether a map is balanced for multiplayer (which, in my experience, few of them are). The rating I give is appropriate to my single-player experience.
Quote:
Just my opinion here, but to me the worst multiplayer map has got to be far better than the best human vs AI map.....
Games against the AI are just.....no fun. After playing against human opponents the comp is just too easy--even given huge bonuses to try to sway things in the comp's favor.
I think one can have the excitement of knife-edge play in single-player games too. Or the enthrallment of a good story-map, or the challenge of a puzzle-map. It's not quite the same *kind* of excitement, but I think it's there.
Quote:
There's an old cliche that goes along the lines of "Billions and billions of Chinese can't be wrong". Look at the number of people enrolled in ToH and other online tournaments and tell me which is more popular--single player games or online multiplayer ones.
Said cliche is a standard logical fallacy - everyone in the world *can* be wrong, except if we're talking about what opinions actually *are*.
Which you are. But the example you give doesn't prove the point you think it does. Yes, there are large numbers of people who like online multiplayer gaming. However, you have no handle on the number of people who like single-player games.
Well, there are quite a number of sites which host lots of maps for download - without having ToH's very active tournaments. (H3trio actually has effectively 'single-player' tournaments :-) And I've seen other 'single-player' competitions around.) How many downloads do those maps get? Lots?
We don't know which is *more* popular. I think it's safe to say that both styles of gaming *are* popular. They must both have their strengths, even for the experienced gamer. I'm hoping that Rychenroller will be able to appreciate the strengths of certain single-player games in H3 - but I guess this discussion has illustrated that the strengths of the different styles are exactly that; different.
Quote:
No offense intended here, of course. I'm just stating my opinion and should probably keep my mouth shut because this is sounding somewhat harsh. It isn't meant to come across that way, though.
Of course :-)
We have wandered a bit from the topic; which was the disappointment that there won't be a random map generator in H4. I have to admit that it doesn't disappoint me. As a H4 webmaster, actually, I think it might have advantages - in that I won't *get* touched-up random maps being submitted til the expansion is out.
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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Camelnor
Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
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posted January 18, 2002 01:59 AM |
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WoW, i will hafto thoroughly disagree here...
"Yes I know there are the campaigns (play them once and thats it) and the maps (same)."
You only play a map once? you never play a different color on a map? just one time and thats it? quite strange... Especially since many maps have different strategies for different colors, making it a completely different experience.
"I hate the symmetry of made maps, and the fact that you cant play them more than once if u arent in a competitive system. "
Hmmm... symmetry of made maps? are the only made maps you download from toh? Because, then, you would be correct, all toh maps are symmetrical (or nearly so).
However, try downloading maps from other sites... i think you will find that there are many that are quite UN-symmetrical yet still balanced.
Thats the problem. The toh map makers havent figured out how to make maps balanced without being perfectly symmetrical... which really is a shame.
Even my maps,(which i dont claim to be the best ones) are balanced and fun(at least many people tell me so) without being in the least bit symmetrical.
"There will be at least 20 maps and couple of campaigns"
Well, we know there will be 6 campaigns, not 2.
and I seriously doubt there will be only 20 maps, considering that H3 had many more than that. I really wish you guys wouldnt be so pessimistic.
Plus, im sure there will be many fun multiplayer maps like C a C and Ascension in H4 that will be fun.
because really, C a C is sooo much more fun than any build-up-your-forces-and-kill-the-L7-creature-who-is-guarding-the-pass-to-your-enemy-and-then-take-their-castle TOH map will ever be.
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My Site
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