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| Thread: Script rework? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · NEXT» |
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2009 03:21 PM |
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Script rework?
Hi,
i have this idea since some time now. Maybe it's a good idea.
There are many nice ideas in the current scripts. But it is not well documented, and many many things are done more than once. And the usage of variables and function numbers is very extensive. To be precise: Variables and function numbers are wasted. So i had the idea of reworking all the scripts so that variable usage is well documented (not just variable used, but for what purpose), so that other scripts may take advantage of it, and to build some kind of library usable by many scripts. Of cource this tast is too big for just me alone.
To give an example of a possible main structure, here is some code. First, a general battle setup. It just stores some hero stats to well known locations. For now i choose v100-v199 for left hero, v200-v299 for right hero. The trigger just stores the stats (for now just id and primary skillt, but there will be more). Then it calls repeatedly FU999:
[code]
!?BA0;
!!BA:A?y1; 0 = real, 1 = fictive
!!FU&y1=1:E;
!!BA:H0/?y-1; left hero ID
!!FU34:Py-1/100; Store to v100 ff
!!BA:H1/?y-2; Right hero id
!!VRv200:S-1; Preset: No hero
!!FU34&y-2>=0:Py-2/200; Store to v200 ff
!!DO999/0/3/1:P;
!!FU:E;
[/code]
The trick here is first a function 999 which stores the loop var to a well known location:
[code]
!?FU999;
!!VRv9:Sx16;
!!FU:E;
[/code]
Just that, nothing more. Now the worker functions. Every task which is to bedone when a battle occures may be implemented using FU999. Every! Just check for v9 like this:
[code]
!?FU999&v9=0;
!!VRy1:Sv100; Left hero id
!!FU&y1<0:E;
!!FU&y1>155:E;
!!HEy1:G?y2/W?y3; Initial/current movement pts
!!VRy4:Sy2-y3; How far moved
!!IF:M^DEBUG: %Y2 initial, %Y3 current^;
!!VRy4: :200;
!!HEy1&y4>0:Fdy4/d/d/d; Add attack
!!HEy1:B0/?z1; z1 = hero name
!!IF&1000:M^%Z1 gained %Y1 Attack^;
!!VRy1:Sv200; Right hero ID
!!FU&y1<0:E;
!!FU&y1>155:E;
!!HEy1:W?y4; current movement pts
!!VRy4: :200;
!!HEy1&y4>0:Fd/dy4/d/d; Add defense
!!HEy1:B0/?z1; z1 = hero name
!!IF&1000:M^%Z1 gained %Y1 Defense^;
!!FU:E;
[/code]
As you can see, the first FU999 is called always. The other ones only for their number stored in v9. This one is an idea i had: For the attacker add AT depending on the way he moved. Somewhat like the champion charge bonus. For the defender add DF depending on the current movement points. So for attacker it would be good to move far, for defender better not move. This is currently just testing, it will be made dependent of tactics and offense skill for attacker and tactics and armorer skill for defender.
For restoring stats after battle the same. A BA1 trigger restoring the values from their locations. Then calling, let's say, FU998 like here, storing the function multiplexer to v9, and let go.
So we have two functions, one for battle preset, one for after battle restore. Both functions could be reused thousands of times (currently just called 4 times). All general setup and restore should be moved to the basic triggers here. Variable usage must be documented, so anyone may use them.
Similar triggers and setup will be for any hero visiting any object (only left hero stored to v100-v199), and hero visiting another hero (same storage as above) and maybe in timed functions looping over heroes stored here too. Consistend and economic variable and function usage plus easier scripting would be the result.
What do you think?
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted October 05, 2009 03:51 PM |
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I appreciate your effort, but scripting complex user apps in assembler-like enviroment is a bad idea, no matter how much time to waste you have.
There have been tons of ERM scripts since release and they are already backward incompatibile, as none of creators took care about such an issue.
If you want your work to have any use, visit our project.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 05, 2009 04:18 PM |
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I had certainly not understand all correctly but here is what I think:
Quick and floating variables are mostly used in custom scripts, thus they can be reused safely elsewhere. Or are you speaking about general scripts? Same goes for Functions specific variables so I never noticed an overload or got confused with them. Moreover 3.59 platform will increase the number of available functions to 30 000. A revamping of variables usage will interfere with many projects, as ERA or 3.59, which are quite in advanced progression (I hope).
I am not a programmer but mapmaker only with a basic knowledge of ERM (autodidact) and I am very satisfied with ERM usage and can't understand when people say it has to be revamped. But surely you have the skill to see farther so it could be beneficial to everyone. Most of people here want concrete results and do not care about scripting. Russians can understand you but they will not care as well, being busy with their own projects. You are alone but courageous 
The concept of "team" does not work in WoG. It died with 3.57 team and never could be resurrected again. Better small individual projects with 100% chances to be completed than huge ones which will get lost as they all did. But this is only my opinion.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2009 05:08 PM |
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Quote:
There have been tons of ERM scripts since release and they are already backward incompatibile, as none of creators took care about such an issue.
Exactly that is the problem. It is unorganized and chaotic. This limits development.
Quote:
If you want your work to have any use, visit our project.
I know that project and i'm interested. But that is independent of reworking the scripts.
Well, it seems, i am on my own here. Don't know if i will succeed here, but as long as i have time i will continue. Maybe from time to time post something here.
Nevertheless any idea and help is welcome
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2009 11:18 AM |
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Status
Hi,
here's current status and basic ideas for the project. I think i'll discuss it here so anyone intereested may participate.
First the overall goal (from a gamers view) is to not add and static changes, but only (as far as possible) dynamic changes to the game. So basically a game then in the beginning will be playable mostly like the original game. But there will be enhancements you can earn (hero development). These enhancements are more significant than the current standard WoG enhancements, since they have to be earned before. Other changes will be dynamic, depending on terrain, hero class, artifacts and the like.
Second idea is to give any of those single-shot objects a second function. You'll see that below for marletto tower and mercenary camp.
So what is currently implemented?
First is indeed a minor static change The witch hut now gives you the chance to not learn that skill. I adopted that from Tobyn's scripts, but just the initial question. only basic skill. No forgetting. Still open question: What action if a hero with maximum number of skills visits a witch hut? Currently no function. Objects without any value are not that good.
Next: Part of my idea of "hero specialisation boost". If an attacking hero has Offense and Tactics (both needed), then he temporarily gains AT+ at the beginning of a battle. The amount depends on the movement done and on the level of both skills. Somewhat like the champion charge bonus, but for the hero. The AT gained may be really significant. The effect is doubled for offense or tactics specialists.
For the defender it's somewhat opposite. A defender needs tactics and armorer to activate it. He does not gain AT, but DF, and the amount depends on what he not moved and the level of both skills. The idea is to assume a hero having tactics and armorer an time by not moving around may "dig in" and thus gains DF. Again amount may become really significant. Again the effect is doubled for tactics or armorer specialists.
Additionally a hero having navigation plus tactics gains both AT+ and DF+ if fighting on water. here the effects are not based on movement. But again the effect is doubled for navigation specialists.
Imagine Crag Hack as offense specialist having maximum offense and maximum tactics plus fast forces plus all the movement boosters. Depending on how far he moves to attack he may gain an AT+ of up to 40! Basic calculation is (initial movement - current movement) * tactics * offense / 400; Movement points are between 15000 and 2000. So assuming a movement of 2000, AT+ may be 2000*3*3/400. Doubled for specialist
TODO: I think i should modify the movement part of the attacker by terrain and hero. On native terrain no further modification, on foreign terrain depending on terrain movement modifier reduce movement part. And maybe for attacker add more DF if defending a town (native town/native terrain).
Next: Mercenary camp and marletto tower. The first time any hero visits such an object he gets 1 DF or AT for free (standard behavior). On any subsequent visit he's offered to buy another AT or DF (depending on object). Cost is quite significant and depends on the heroes current AT resp. DF. Calculation is (for AT): AT*AT*1000 gold (for DF similar). The action is limited to a level of 20. So if a hero with AT of 20 revisits a mercenary camp, he may get a last lesson giving him AT of 21 and costs 20*20*1000 = 400.000 gold.
I'd like to add something similar to star axis and garden of revelation. But it makes no sense to pay a garden with gold. Idea needed.
Currently working on: If a resource specialist visits a mine of his speciality, and this changes the mines owner, then the player gets some decent amount of this resource. I think i make the amount depend on estates level and luck, but give a minimum always.
Other idea for resource specialists: Give more of that speciality resource from piles and trasure chests. Again depending on luck and estates level.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2009 11:24 AM |
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Another point i'm working on: After battle the current movement points are adjusted. You can't fight a battle just on the fly, can't you? So a battle reduces movement. The looser always gets his movement points reduced to zero. The winner gets his movement points reduced by 700. The reducement may be freduced by 100 per logistics level if the hero has tactics. Reduction is doubled for logistics specialists. So a logistics specialist with maximum logistics and with tactics gets a movement reduction of 100, which is nearly neglectable.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 09, 2009 11:40 AM |
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Scripts changing the mechanics and penalizing an action are not popular. Now if winning a battle increase movement (their morale gets boosted) then it would be very popular and add something to the strategy plans. Reducing the number of battles an hero can have penalize master chaining and diminish the interest of hardcore players.
Now what would be useful IMHO is to create a realistic and interesting bonus for "never used" skills, like learning, eagle eye, scholar, diplomacy, and a few others. Like scouting revealing a big area around the hero on every day 7, eagle eye being capable to counter a spell, scholar being able to open a research spell and so on. Also it will restore the original balance 3DO had in mind but failed between magic and might heros. Magic being able to learn mass spells (expert elements) but unable to learn concepts of armorer and offense, while the might never being able to learn any elemental schools, so their spells are always basic. Increasing through !?MF trigger the power of spells for magic heros etc. Right now MP is rather basic, you choose a offense/armorer specialist and win the game. Magic heros are never used and from 64+ spells only 4-5 are used because they are goodly.
Just imagine how much success will have a script where the HP of defeated creatures is converted in movement points.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2009 12:42 PM |
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Hmmm, i'll think about that.
But for your suggestions later: Yes, i'm thinking of things like this. But not just boosting a single skill, but adding other benefits if the hero has 2 skills. So this does not change the basic skill benefit, but adds completely new ones. And all of those combo skill benefits get an extra boost for some specialists.
For the movement penalty: Yes, that reduces some options. But does not make them impossible. This is again kind of extra bonus for a 2 skill combo: Logistics and tactics. If a hero has both, the movement loss will be minimal. I could even imagine of reducing the loss to zero for a logistics specialist having maximum logistics and maximum tactics.
For those rare used skills: For example i'm thinking of giving shooters the no range penalty flag if the hero has archery and eagle eye. That would make sense. I'm currently not quite sure how to handle specialisation here. Archery specialists should gain something different that shooting creature specialists. And both should gain more than other specialist types. Do you know how to give that flag just to the shooting stacks on the battlefield? Another option may be casting precision on all shooting stacks (or all heroes speciality creatures if shooting) at the beginning of a battle.
An idea for learning might be: Add extra stack experience. F.ex. to shooters if has archery and learning, and to non-shooters if has offense and learning or armorer and learning. Something like that.
I think together with other skills and/or in other situations other combos may grant totally different boni.
Other ideas:
Gold specialist + Archery: Increase number of shots.
Necros with necromancy cursing the opponent hero. Curse depends on other skill and/or speciality. Or create cursed ground if winning a battle and no magic skills. Or for non-necromancers creating other special terrain if winning a battle and having maximum wisdom, maximum X magic expertise (X depending on hero class) and then create class specific terrain overlay. Or depend it on level of both and add a random chance to do so, more probably on higher levels.
Another idea: Clerics with water magic and cure spell should be able to cure any curses (or reduce them due to water magic expertise) for any friendly hero.
Another idea is to add extra functionality to artifacts. Not simply boosting them, but add extra functions if equipped by specific hero class with specific SS combos. So the amulet of the undertaker could give some decent extra to any necromancer, but give something negative to a cleric. And the pendant of holiness contrary. Things like that.
There are many ideas. But i don't want to just enhance a single skill or artifact or whatever, but to create new functions for combos.
Enhancing speed after a battle dependend of creatures slayn i think is no good idea. But a morale booster may be a good idea. In this case i would limit that to inferno, dungeon, stronghold and fortress. For castle, tower and rampart i would instead add a blessing if a hero does not fight (let them run).
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2009 12:48 PM |
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BTW, your idea of enhancing the effects of some spells using the MF trigger is good. But i think again not increasing them just for nothing, but dependent on hero class and other skills. May even reduce effect.
F.e. Death Ripple. Should be reduced in effect if the hero has no necromancy skill, and should be increased if has necromancy. Maybe same with class. May additinaly depend on sorcery (for benefit only). May further be modified by artifacts. F.ex. pendant of holiness reduces effect for wearer (casting as well as suffering), pendant of death increases. And so on.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 09, 2009 01:27 PM |
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Quote:
Do you know how to give that flag just to the shooting stacks on the battlefield?
Adding ability within !!EA*ID* is not possible in battle, but you must use related to stack slot position. So first you have to find which slot holds a shooter group and then add ability with !!EA*-1 up to -7* (slots ID).
Easy to do with BMx16 then do a loop and eliminate all ID not shooters.
There is no flag for no range penality (at least could not find it) so it must be added through !!EA.
Maybe try this?
!?BG0;
!!BG:A?y1;
!!FU&y1<>7:E; **if not shoot, exit
!!BG:N?y1; y1 - number of stack, will have to show negative in EA command, thus !!EA-y1, not tested, never tried.
!!BMy1:T?y2; y2 - type of monsters
!!EA-y1&y2<>[not shooters ID's]:B12/....no range penality code
About MF thing: magic damage spells are already too weak. For example if you develop a wizard/warlock to high level he will never stand a chance against a barbarian/beastmaster. mainly because he can cast only once/turn and the spell damage is ridiculous comparing with high offense damages. So a magic class should have spells damages increased a lot to actually have a chance.
The best thing to increase the use of magic heros would be to allow them to cast mass spells, and prohibit this to might heros. That means they can't learn expert earth/fire/water and air. I already started working on such general script but I got bored, as I am not fan of scripting for the sake of it if there is not map to do. :P
If you like scripting, then you should give a try to your ideas. A script restoring the power of magic will be highly enjoyable. And I see you will not have any problems to make it.
My start was:
!?HL-1;
!!HE-1:B2/?v234; **check for class
!!FU|v234=1/v234=3/v234=5/v234=7/v234=9/v234=11/v234=13/v234=15:E; **if magic class, exit
**or:
!!HE-1:B2/?y-7 Ed/?y-8;
!!VRy-99:Sy-7 %2; // only for casters
!!FU&y-99=0:E; // exit the function, if it is a fighter class
then:
!!FU123&v123>=0:P;
!!HE-1:S14/?y2;
!!FU&y2<2:E;
!!HE-1:S14/3 N?v123;
The might hero will not be able to cast expert fire spells. Now I got stuck on how to prohibit him learning fire so he does not waste 2 levels to pick it. So far I could not find a solution to prohibit magic skills to might heros.
The code in battle was (old code so it might be wrong, don't have the patience to check it again...):
ZVSE
!!VRv123:S0 -1;
!?FU123;
!!HEv123:S14/2; **limit the might to advanced level
!!VRv123:S0 -1;
!?HL-1;
!!FU123&v123>=0:P;
!!HE-1:S14/?y2;
!!FU&y2<2:E;
!!HE-1:S14/3 N?v123;
!?CM0&v123>=0;
!!FU123:P;
!?CM5&v123>=0;
!!FU123:P;
!?BA0&v123>=0;
!!FU123:P;
!?BA50&v123>=0;
!!FU123:P;
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Era II mods and utilities
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2009 02:34 PM |
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Quote:
About MF thing: magic damage spells are already too weak. For example if you develop a wizard/warlock to high level he will never stand a chance against a barbarian/beastmaster. mainly because he can cast only once/turn and the spell damage is ridiculous comparing with high offense damages. So a magic class should have spells damages increased a lot to actually have a chance.
I agree. Although if you give a magic hero some real boost then it is no disadvantage to cast only once per round.
Quote:
The best thing to increase the use of magic heros would be to allow them to cast mass spells, and prohibit this to might heros. That means they can't learn expert earth/fire/water and air.
Well, here i don't agree. At least not fully. I won't prohibit anything. So if a barbarian wants to cast chain lightning, why not? But i would increase effect only for magic heroes dependant of something like class and some secondary skills. Currently not sure what.
One of the most basic ideas is to add something similar to the AT/DF boost mentioned above to magic heroes spell power or spell points. I'm just currently not sure about the prerequisites.
More interesting is any change by erm and MF trigger depending on hero class and some skills and artifacts, increasing or reducing damage or increasing/reducing benefits.
Does the trigger also occure when healing a stack with the first aid tent? Then i'd like to change the first aid tent functionality for necromancers, not healing anything but unstead casting animate dead. So increased effect on undead stacks, no effect on living stacks. Or maybe for living stacks do not heal anything but summon some skeletons.
Similar with other spells. I think, cure should have some negative effect on undead, normal effect for inferno and dungeon, slightly increased effect for tower and rampart and most increased effect for clerics.
Hmmm, just thinking: what if quadrupling power for a pure magic hero with all magic skills and no might skills? So have all 4 magic class skills plus wisdom, intelligence, sorcery and scholar. Or making increase depend on the levels of these skills? Or some of them? And then again special handling for necromancers.
Quote:
I already started working on such general script but I got bored, as I am not fan of scripting for the sake of it if there is not map to do. 
I'll check that script, there sure will be some useful ideas.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2009 03:22 PM |
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I just have done the basic pure magic booster script. But instead of scholar i've decided to make mysthicism a prerequisit. So what it does is before battle if a hero has all 4 magic skills plus mysthicism, sorcery, intelligence and wisdom, he gets a temporary increase of his power. Calculation is: Linear increase as sum of all these skills (so up to 8*3=27), doubled if one of these skills is the heroes speciality (i currently only know of sorcery), and increased by 8 for spell specialists. If power exceeds 99 it is limited to 99.
And here's the code. Before showing the function, first this one. I have changed the mechanism slightly to gain more flexibility. In the pre-battle trigger BA0 this function is called (after storing the hero stats) like this:
!!VRv9:S0;
!!FU999&v100>=0:P100; Call for attacker
!!VRv9:S1;
!!FU999&v200>=0:P200; Call for defender
So then the function is this:
** Boost power for a pure magic hero.
** The hero must be of magic class and
** have all 4 magic class skills plus
** sorcery, wisdom, mysthicism and intelligence.
** x1 = index to v var (hero storage)
!?FU999;
!!FU&vx1<0:E;
!!FU&vx1>155:E;
!!HEvx1:S7/?y1 S8/?y2; Wisdom/mysthicism
!!HEvx1:S14/?y5 S15/?y6 S16/?y7 S17/?y8;
!!HEvx1:S24/?y3 S25/?y4; Intelligence/sorcery
!!VRy9:Sy1*y2*y3*y4*y5*y6*y7*y8;
!!FU&y9=0:E;
!!VRy9:Sy1+y2+y3+y4+y5+y6+y7+y8;
!!HEvx1:X?y10/?y11/d/d/d/d/d;
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=7:*2; Wisdom specialist
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=8:*2; Mysthicism specialist
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=14:*2; Magic classes
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=15:*2;
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=16:*2;
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=17:*2;
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=24:*2; Intelligence specialist
!!VRy9&y10=0/y11=25:*2; Sorcery specialist
!!VRy9&y10=3:+8; Spell specialist
!!HEvx1:Fd/d/d/?y12; Power
!!VRy12:+y9;
!!VRy12&y12>99:S99; limit
!!HEvx1:Fd/d/d/y12; set
!!FU&-1000:E; AI exit
!!HEvx1:B0/?z1; hero name
!!IF&1000/y9>0:M^%Z1s power increases to %Y12^;
!!FU:E;
I'm going to test that now. Let's see if i get a pure magic hero and what it is like to act with him.
In case you're wondering why i multiply all y1 - y8: If any of them is zero, then the result will automatically be zero.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 09, 2009 03:37 PM |
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bad idea I think because the power will be limited to 99 (so there will be no difference between might 99 power and magic 99 power). Better script the damage of spells, not the stats. Also asking for 4 seconday skills as pre-condition will make the game harder for magic at start, and it is already. And not all magic heros have same chances to get those 4 skills.
And yes, might should not be able to cast mass spells. If you played multiplayer, you remember then that once the might cast mass slow/haste, the game is won.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 09, 2009 06:01 PM |
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Quote:
bad idea I think because the power will be limited to 99 (so there will be no difference between might 99 power and magic 99 power). Better script the damage of spells, not the stats.
Well, one thing does not necessarily exclude the other. So i thought this general power boost exactly for this kind of pure magic hero.
Scripting some spells is an additional task. Here i mostly think of magic school specialists. So f.ex. a hero having fire magic but no other magic school but other magic skills would then vastly improve any fire spells. Improvement based on class of course. So inferno would benefit most from fire spells, castle most from water spells, tower most of air spells and dungeon most of earth spells, except necro spells.
Quote:
Also asking for 4 seconday skills as pre-condition will make the game harder for magic at start, and it is already. And not all magic heros have same chances to get those 4 skills.
Indeed, but intended. And it's not 4 skills, it's 8 skills
And because it's 8 magic skills i think it's impossible for a might hero to gain them. All might heroes start with some non-magic skill. So they can at most get 7 of them and so do not benefit from this boost. Although they might benefit from other magic boosters. We'll see.
Hmmm, maybe that means to check for number of skills? Or indeed additionally check for might/magic type?
Quote:
And yes, might should not be able to cast mass spells. If you played multiplayer, you remember then that once the might cast mass slow/haste, the game is won.
Hmmm that is a point to think about. But still i think just plain disable that for a might hero is not the way to go. But indeed any counter here would be good.
BTW: For necros i thought of many curses and the like. So f.ex. reducing enemies spell points before battle or reducing his power.
BTW(2): The above code has an error. I accidentially increased knowledge instead of power. Should be corrected.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2009 01:51 PM |
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Currently working on another boost. Something like the standard "some treasure chests contain more gold". But this time for heroes only who have estates and scouting or eagle eye. These get more out of treasure chests, find some extra resources when changing a mine's owner and find more resource in resource piles, campfires, leantos. Doubled for specialists. So resource specialists will have their value, too. And again this extra feature needs activation by getting the skills.
Hmmm, maybe for floatsom and sea chest i change eagle eye or scouting to navigation as prerequisite. Or instead change estates to navigation as prerequisite.
Another idea for resource heroes having eagle eye: When winning a battle steal some gold from opponent. Maybe depending on estates? Or better intelligence? Doubled for gold specialists. Other resource specialists additionally steal some of this resource from opponent.
Two more ideas, different. What about levelling out ballistics skill in siege battle? Like tactics? Second, what if the town defender has the higher ballistics skill and has eagle eye? F.ex. each round add some random damage to attackers catapult (sabotage)?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 10, 2009 02:13 PM |
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Anything can be done
However, you should ask skilled players for what reason would they choose or develop an eagle eye scout/main hero. In single maps, having extra gold from won battles is not so important. In MP maps, the first battle is often the last, so what for.
My self I would choose:
1) Intelligence on a scout if he can tell me at expert what spells are hidden in mage guild.
2) Eagle eye if during a battle he can see an attack coming and parry it (% chances to dodge random attack)
3) Scouting expert if every day 7 clicking randomly on the map will reveal a 10x10 radius around the clicked square (damnt good in MP).
4) Navigation if taking the boat does not end the movement + increased speed for all units in battle if on water
5) learning if the defeated creatures HP are converted in EXP after the standard experience bonus is given.
6) Mysticism if before the battle it gives a choice to boost an unit (you are a mystic guy so gods hear you). Can be a battle winner.
7) Scholar if at expert you can distribute free books and all spells from all towns you own to all your heros on the adventure map while not visiting them.
I mean, people got an habit to avoid those skills at any price. To insert them again, you have to give them useful bonuses, and not too many conditions. A battle is still won with offense/armorer/earth so players will not be fooled with small bonuses.
The best way before starting a huge work would be to create a POLL in library forum and ask for opinions. Those skills were already boosted by WoG team but never used in TE (too strong, too weak, not interesting). Only MP players from actual tournaments who already play on TE platform could say what would be interesting for them to change a 10 years old habit.
Another lethal problem would be that all scripting done in battle could finish in a bug, as WoG team tested very little multiplayer. So all !?BA things have chances to not work.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2009 04:14 PM |
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Anything can be done
Unfortunately not. See missing possibility to het the number of a visited object.
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However, you should ask skilled players for what reason would they choose or develop an eagle eye scout/main hero. In single maps, having extra gold from won battles is not so important. In MP maps, the first battle is often the last, so what for.
Right. mostly. It's not only the won resource, it's too the loss of that for the opponent. So this is double-feature.
But if the game is won by first battle, any boost is irrelevant. So what for?
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My self I would choose:
1) Intelligence on a scout if he can tell me at expert what spells are hidden in mage guild.
2) Eagle eye if during a battle he can see an attack coming and parry it (% chances to dodge random attack)
3) Scouting expert if every day 7 clicking randomly on the map will reveal a 10x10 radius around the clicked square (damnt good in MP).
4) Navigation if taking the boat does not end the movement + increased speed for all units in battle if on water
5) learning if the defeated creatures HP are converted in EXP after the standard experience bonus is given.
6) Mysticism if before the battle it gives a choice to boost an unit (you are a mystic guy so gods hear you). Can be a battle winner.
7) Scholar if at expert you can distribute free books and all spells from all towns you own to all your heros on the adventure map while not visiting them.
1) Very good idea. But (as always) i'd like to combine that. So combine scouting with eagle eye to make him tell what spells are hidden in a magic huild, what skills may be learned in a universiry, what skills may be learned by a witch hut, how many creatures are ready for hiring, and so on. Should be somewhat limited in the beginning, but if he has both at full level, may tell anything.
2) Nice idea. But again combination. So let's say combine eagle eye with armorer to get a chance to block. Combine it with resistance to get a (second) chance to block a magic attack, combine it with orcery to get a chance to mirror any hostile spell back to a random target, ombine it with first aid to automatically heal a part of the damage after a magic attack. More ideas welcome.
3) Excellent idea, but needs combination with eagle eye. And always reveal an area if the hero has both skills. Radius beeing the sum of both skills, doubled for specialist. Problem: How to tell if a player already has done that? And what if clicking on water? Reveal none except if has navigation, too.
4) Good idea. Although i already have used navigation for my AT resp DF booster as an alternate to ofense or armorer if battle is on water. But Speed plus is an idea. Combined with what? Tactics? Logistics?
5) Yes, good idea. But i'd like to diversify this. So for evil faction indeed so. For good faction contrary, get experience from the own creatures not slayn after battle. For neutrals i'm not sure what to do here. Needs idea. And again, combine with what? Maybe eagle eye for evil, eagle eye or first aif for good.
6) Good idea, although needs a combo skill. And again for evil faction better reduce some opponents stack. Or maybe only for necromancers do so.
7) This idea i don't like that much. But i have other ideas. I thought for secondary skill specialists having scholar may teach this secondary skill to any friendly hero and may change the skill in a witch hut to this or may replaye any university skill with his speciality skill. But then waht to do for other heroes? What if scholar + estates may change the spells in magic guild of owned town? Needs calculation.
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I mean, people got an habit to avoid those skills at any price. To insert them again, you have to give them useful bonuses, and not too many conditions. A battle is still won with offense/armorer/earth so players will not be fooled with small bonuses.
Right. First i do not want to give any bonus to a single skill (i want to avoid that at any price ). Thus second i want to introduce exactly these skills as auxiliary skills activating many very nice boni. So the skill itself may be as worthless as ever, but still desirable to gain any of these extra advantages.
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The best way before starting a huge work would be to create a POLL in library forum and ask for opinions. Those skills were already boosted by WoG team but never used in TE (too strong, too weak, not interesting). Only MP players from actual tournaments who already play on TE platform could say what would be interesting for them to change a 10 years old habit.
This is why i'm discussing that here. But this may be the wrong place. If these things are discussed in the library forum this thread should be moved there. And a simple poll won't do. But this type of discussion is exactly what is needed.
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Another lethal problem would be that all scripting done in battle could finish in a bug, as WoG team tested very little multiplayer. So all !?BA things have chances to not work.
Indeed. Needs testing. And i think needs addition of !!BA50/!?BA51 to support MP.
And BTW: This is indeed a huge work which has just started. But here we have the chance to build a proper system
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 12, 2009 12:04 PM |
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@Salamandre: I think before discussing too much of how to boost spells with erm maybe an update of the sptraits.txt should be considered? There are quite several spells that do the same damage on basic level as on no level. I think that should be changed. And at least some of the direct damage spells should depend more on power.
It is not the best idea to just plain boost spells, since doing so would make a magic hero be overpowered in the beginning of a game (no need to first hire creatures to do some damage). But indeed later in the game a mage hero could/should get some boost. Especially those direct damage spells should be boosted. So the easiest way to handle both cases would be to make the damage depend more on power.
And i think, two spells are underrated: Death ripple and destroy undead.
Each magic school has a nice mass damage spell. Ait magic has its chain lightning, earth magic has meteor shower, fire magic has armaggedon. Water magic has nothing here. Destroy undead would be perfect. So i'd like to move it to level 4 and enhance damage. The same for Death ripple (although it is again an earth spell, but this time it is optimized for necto). Should be moved to level 4 too and enhanced damage.
And maybe fireball and inferno should be enhanced, without altering spell level. They are much too weak.
Something similar, although non-magic, is valid for ballista, too. Ballista damage should depend much more on skill and, if possible, level.
Another issue: As far as i know the first aid tent is somewhat like an artifact. Would it be possible to create another artifact usable like a first aid tent, but not healing, but instead cast animate dead? would fit much better to the necros.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2009 11:58 AM |
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Extended type
I'm still working on kind of "extended types" which may be developed. There are several aspects where these extended types may gain some extra boost: Economic (resources), pre-battle, battle first round setup, each round, suffering damage, dealing damage, after-battle setup. Not all extended types get boost in all of these aspects.
Currently i'm working on the cleric base type. Generally this should result in somewhat protect your troops and generally receive boni associated with "holy". So indeed the central artifacts here are "pendant of holiness" and the "angelic alliance" and its parts.
First here are the spell specialist clerics and the start of a battle. For pre-battle setup i've currently no idea. I think they don't need a boost here. But for first round they may get a bonus.
Prerequisite of becoming that extended type (i'd apprechate a good name for it) is: having water magic and wisdom, but no other magic school and no necromancy. And currently just the spell specialists (for others i'll do later). The basic idea is to make some "holy kardinal" or something like that.
Now the boost in round 1: The hero applies a spell to his own troops (for some beneficial spells) or weakness to enemy troops. Spell depends on spell speciality. Speciality spells used are bless, protection from water, weakness, prayer, mirth. Other spell specialists will use bless instead. The spell is applied without mana costs in round 1 for X rounds, X depending on several things.
First, there are artifacts which inhibit getting the boost. These are: Amulet of the untertaker, vampires cowl, dead mans boots, spirit of oppression, hourglass of the evil hour, pendant of death, cloak of the undead king, armor of the damned. If any of these is equipped, the bonus gets lost.
Then basic duration is calculated as (defense + knowledge) * water magic skill.
This may be greatly modified by other artifacts equipped. Some boost duration, some lower it:
blackshard of the dead knight => /2
sword of hellfire => /2
shield of the yawning dead => /2
shield of the damned => /2
skull helmet => /2
helm of chaos => /2
crown of the supreme magi => *2
hellstorm helmet => /2
rib cage => /2
breastplate of brimston => /2
armor of wonder => +2
sandals of the saint => *3
celestial necklace of bliss => *3
lions shield of courage => +4
sword of judgement => *3
helm of heavenly enlightment => *3
angel wings => *2
orb of driving rain => *2
ring of vitality => +1
ring of life => +2
pendant of holiness => *4
pendant of life => *3
angelic alliance =* +200
elixier of life => +100
The spell is then applied with this duration. Comments? Did i forget something?
Now i need something similar to the non-spell-specialist clerics. I think it's not necessary to distinguish between resource and creature specialists. maybe do something separate for secondary skill specialists. Ideas?
Edit: Another "boost" for this type will be: If winning a battle creates a patch of "holy ground" at battle location (=> post-battle setup).
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 14, 2009 12:49 PM |
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Very interesting ideas, although too complex and complicate for me. For me, the whole magic system should be revamped before starting on specialties. Mostly because nobody plays with magic heros nowadays.
Seems you are going to have a lot of work
With your last comment about creating special ground, you hit one of my ideas (I used it in Alexander map, where 52 big battles occur). When a battle occurs, a dead corpse (skeleton) will appear on the square after battle, with the message (here lay the corpse of x, defeated by y). Like in Disciples games. Not big deal for the standard player, but fun nevertheless.
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