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Paulemile
Known Hero
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posted November 19, 2009 04:06 PM |
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It is remarkable that the barbarian and the beastmaster have very similar class 1 triplets.
To me, the Barbarians and Beastmasters are the only pure Might classes in Homm3. One is attack-based, the other defense-based. Their towns have only 3 mage guild levels (despite the witch is a good magic hero).
So it is logical to find them with similar secondray skills sets (even if I think that the Beastmaster is a little more subtle).
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So does anyone have an idea of how to convert these 2 triplets into well fitting boni?
more to come. But these classes seem to be rare. So start here.
well, it's time to help now 
I don't think I'll be very original, but maybe my ideas would help you to find other ones...
Note that I throw ideas without any clue of the amount of work it would involve.
Pathfinding/Logistics/Defense: Beastmaster
Creatures can defend, then attack (like waiting but with defense bonus). Maybe remove some speed maybe.
Pathfinding/Scouting/Offense: Barbarian
Allows the Barbarian to kill some enemies before battle, depending of their own troops (maybe too powerful).
Pathfinding/Navigation/Defense: Beastmaster
Hem... creatures gain speed and defense skill when they fight on boats ?
Pathfinding/Ballistics/Offense: Barbarian
Allows the catapult to shot troops maybe... or just a better damage and better aim... Don't rally know.
Pathfinding/Estates/Artillery: Overlord
Ballistas give gold when they kill enemies. Not very logical but still don't find better.
Pathfinding/Estates/Sorcery: Wizard and Warlock
Creates resources in exchange of spell points, depends on the terrain you are (to make the pathfinding useful  )
Pathfinding/Tactics/Offense: Barbarian
Chance (not 100%  )for the player to start the battle surrounding the enemies.
The fastest creature of the attacker starts the battle, even if there is faster monsters on the other side.
Pathfinding/Artillery/Offense: Barbarian
Increases ballista's damage, allows it to act sooner (not the last one) in battle (speed of 5 or 6).
Pathfinding/Artillery/Armorer: Beastmaster
Faster ballistas (as barbarian's), ballistas get more hp (not very useful). Damage reduction against enemy ballistas.
Hope this helps 
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 19, 2009 04:53 PM |
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Quote:
well, it's time to help now
Yes!
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I don't think I'll be very original, but maybe my ideas would help you to find other ones...
Note that I throw ideas without any clue of the amount of work it would involve.
Well, ideas are always the first step. Then check the amount of work. So i'll keep these ideas.
But i just found that finding all possible triplets is that much work, i won't get ready in years. So i thought i's stick to pairs. Nevertheless the bonus ideas are useful.
Pathfinding/Logistics/Defense: Beastmaster
Creatures can defend, then attack (like waiting but with defense bonus). Maybe remove some speed maybe.
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That will not be possible. But basically some defense bonus when waiting...
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Pathfinding/Scouting/Offense: Barbarian
Allows the Barbarian to kill some enemies before battle, depending of their own troops (maybe too powerful).
Hmmm, no. Does not really fit to barbarian. Might fit do dungeon.
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Pathfinding/Navigation/Defense: Beastmaster
Hem... creatures gain speed and defense skill when they fight on boats ?
Yes. It seems that navigation is somewhat a replacement for tactics and logistics for fights on water. At least it seems so. This is already implemented in the current script version and will be continued. So any bonus of any pair with logistics or with tactics should be actictive for navigation, too, only on water, where the other 2 are not active on water.
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Pathfinding/Ballistics/Offense: Barbarian
Allows the catapult to shot troops maybe... or just a better damage and better aim... Don't rally know.
Good idea. I hope i can implement this. Currently no idea how. But if, then i'd like to set a huge damage range, from nearly nothing up do huge damage value (different to use, hard to hit, but if, then wham!
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Pathfinding/Estates/Artillery: Overlord
Ballistas give gold when they kill enemies. Not very logical but still don't find better.
Indeed not logical Currently i too have not really good ideas regarding artillery. Just 1 idea (maybe combo Archery/Artillery): Allow formation (aka horde) bonus for shooters?
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Pathfinding/Estates/Sorcery: Wizard and Warlock
Creates resources in exchange of spell points, depends on the terrain you are (to make the pathfinding useful )
Indeed very interesting idea That would create kind of new spell. Or make new use of existing spell (like view earth?)
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Pathfinding/Tactics/Offense: Barbarian
Chance (not 100% )for the player to start the battle surrounding the enemies.
The fastest creature of the attacker starts the battle, even if there is faster monsters on the other side.
Ouch! Heavy! But nice idea. I think about that.
Of course not possible in siege battle.
Surrounded by... then would result in a battle similar to the battle formation in dragon utopia, crypt, creature bank, ...
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Pathfinding/Artillery/Offense: Barbarian
Increases ballista's damage, allows it to act sooner (not the last one) in battle (speed of 5 or 6).
Well, to set speed is, i think, not that good. These war machines have a defined speed of 0 (not moveable).
I'd prefere to use catapult in field battle shooting at stacks (as described above).
Besides that i thought of levelling out both sides ballistics skill, like already standard with tactics.
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Pathfinding/Artillery/Armorer: Beastmaster
Faster ballistas (as barbarian's), ballistas get more hp (not very useful). Damage reduction against enemy ballistas.
Well, speed not that good. But more hp is good, and maybe higher defense. And maybe get it repaired automatically after battle if lost.
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Hope this helps
Sure!
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Besides that, i found an interesting fact. The Cleric has no class 1 skill pair. Maybe that reflects the fact that castle is not focussed on magic (has magic guild only up to level 4)? Cleric has class 2 skill pairs:
First Aid/Diplomacy (no idea what to do with that)
First Aid/Wisdom (resurrect some troops after battle?)
Class 3 pairs:
First aid/eagle eye
First aid/scholar
Resistance/Defense (interesting!)
Again i'd like to skip class 4 for now
The ranger has only 1 class 2 pair:
Resistance/Archery (reduce damage from magic arrow?)
And has 3 class 3 pairs:
Defense/Archery (reduce damage fromshooters?)
Resistance/Pathfinding
Resistance/scouting
I thought they_d have more pairs with Luck. But there is only 1 class 4 pair: Resistance/Luck. Interesting.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 19, 2009 05:05 PM |
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Pathfinding/Logistics/Defense: Beastmaster
All creatures gain +1 Speed in a battle.
Pathfinding/Scouting/Offense: Barbarian
1 random creature may attack twice (like wolf raiders) in a battle
Pathfinding/Tactics/Offense: Barbarian
When starting a battle, all creatures are hasted.
Pathfinding/Artillery/Offense: Barbarian
Balista starts FIRST in each round
Pathfinding/Artillery/Armorer: Beastmaster
All creatures have airshield casted on.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 19, 2009 05:10 PM |
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Quote:
Pathfinding/Logistics/Defense: Beastmaster
All creatures gain +1 Speed in a battle.
Pathfinding/Tactics/Offense: Barbarian
When starting a battle, all creatures are hasted.
And the name of the mod is "Crag and Taz nail you to a pulp"?
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Era II mods and utilities
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 19, 2009 06:09 PM |
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Why so negative?
There may be great boni for other classes too.
Some could get "expert prayer for all troops", others could get "expert shield for all troops".
Isn't it especially YOUR saying: EVERY tactic has a COUNTER tactic!"?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 19, 2009 06:21 PM |
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In my opinion there is one urgent need in the game, magic heros closer to might as efficiency. Once they are competitive at least, then synergies for boosting both classes would be interesting. Being competitive may use various bonuses, from economic to magic damage, not only on battlefield, to avoid monotony. Diplomacy for example could be linked not to the HP power or skill but on some fame points, due to synergies. Now we can extrapolate for years still some concrete and doable ideas should raise.
And yes, IMHO all tactics have a counter, at least this is how we played it for years. You imagine that if we could find a flaw we would exploit it thus going to ban it, but did not happen. I like the "no rules" game
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Era II mods and utilities
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 19, 2009 07:16 PM |
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Pathfinding/Logistics/Defense: Beastmaster
All creatures gain +1 Speed in a battle.
Yes, a speed bonus is indeed planned. Althogh i'm not really sure with what skills.
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Pathfinding/Scouting/Offense: Barbarian
1 random creature may attack twice (like wolf raiders) in a
battle
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Interesting idea. I'll think about that.
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Pathfinding/Tactics/Offense: Barbarian
When starting a battle, all creatures are hasted.
Well, hasting is better to a magic hero with air magic. And then tower. For barbarians (and battle mage) freanzy or something like that is better.
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Pathfinding/Artillery/Offense: Barbarian
Balista starts FIRST in each round
Not sure about how to implement that. Changing ballista speed is no good option. So this would mean enforce all to wait until ballista has acted. Hmmm....
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Pathfinding/Artillery/Armorer: Beastmaster
All creatures have airshield casted on.
Again only for witch and air magic. I prefere that as a combo of armorer and air magic. But the idea is good.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 20, 2009 02:14 PM |
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I'm through with the analysis of the hctraits.txt. Quite interesting results. I first checked skill pairs and their probability. Some have pairs with quite high probabilities, others no. The wizard has the combos with the highest probabilities. The battle mage has none. So here are these class 1 pairs, summed up over all classes:
Leadership/Ballistics
Learning/Defense
Wisdom/Intelligence
Wisdom/Scholar
Wisdom/Mysticism
Wisdom/Eagle Eye
Wisdom/Sorcery
Mysticism/Intelligence
Eagle Eye/Intelligence
Scholar/Intelligence
Defense/Intelligence
Logistics/Offense
Logistics/Tactics
Leadership/Tactics
Tactics/Artillery
Tactics/Offense
Mysticism/Sorcery
Eagle Eye/Sorcery
Scholar/Sorcery
Pathfinding/Offense
Scouting/Offense
Ballistics/Offense
Tactics/Offense
Artillery/Offense
Pathfinding/Defense
Scouting/Defense
Artillery/Defense
Mysticism/Eagle Eye
Eagle Eye/First Aid
Some classes share some of these combos, others share others. Well, then i took a look at the class 2 pairs and found that in most cases they are not really independend of these here. So i came up with an idea to make this extra development somewhat similar to the h5 skill system. So here's an example, taken from the barbarian skill combos. First the class 1 pairs:
Offense/Pathfinding
Offense/Scouting
Offense/Ballistics
Offense/Tactics
Offense/Artillery
These are all class 1. Now class 2:
Offense/Archery
Offense/Logistics
Remarkable is, that both class 2 pairs have Offense as a part, which is already part of the class 1 pairs. So what to just add these 2 skills to the above combos, thus making triplets, and check what bonus to give then. This way the class 1 pairs are naturally a prerequisite of the class 2 pairs, which then become triplets:
Offense/Pathfinding/Archery
Offense/Scouting/Archery
Offense/Ballistics/Archery
Offense/Tactics/Archery
Offense/Artillery/Archery
Offense/Pathfinding/Logistics
Offense/Scouting/Logistics
Offense/Ballistics/Logistics
Offense/Tactics/Logistics
Offense/Artillery/Logistics
So in this case, if a hero (i think, regardless of class) gets Offense and Pathfinding, he gets some bonus. Not too much, just some bonus. If he then too gets Archery, he additionally gets another bonus.
Interesting here is that these are exactly 8 skills, which will then describe the perfect barbarian.
BTW: Both, Necromancy and Navigation, i'll handle separate (will not be part of any combo). Necromancy will be kind of switch between 2 versions of a combo. So all boni will have to be checked twice, one time without Necromancy, other time with Necromancy. And navigation will replace tactics, logistics and pathfinding when on water (and the other skills will give their bonus only on land, if applicable).
The system for the Beastmaster is quite similar, just having Armorer (Defense) as the main skill. Other classes are more difficult.
One of the most difficult things is what to do with the class 1 pair of Knight: Leadership and Ballistics. Give some bonus in siege battles?
Now i'm going to sort the ideas here and try to attach them to the skill combos found here.
Here are my suggestions for the barbarian:
Offense/Pathfinding: Add speed if attacking. Add 1 extra on foreign ground.
Offense/Scouting: Reveal area around enemy hero if nearer than X tiles.
Offense/Ballistics: AT+ in siege battle.
Offense/Tactics: AT+ horde (formation) bonus.
Offense/Artillery: AT+ if attacking in field battles.
Offense/Pathfinding/Archery: Extra speed for shooters.
Offense/Scouting/Archery: Increase shooters damage.
Offense/Ballistics/Archery: May give golden bow before battle.
Offense/Tactics/Archery: Shooter max damage horde (formation) bonus.
Offense/Pathfinding/Logistics: AT+ depending on movement.
Offense/Scouting/Logistics: Same as Offense/Scouting, but increase X.
Offense/Ballistics/Logistics: Speed+ in siege battle.
Offense/Tactics/Logistics: Speed horde (formation) bonus. Or start surrounding enemy.
Offense/Artillery/Logistics: Speed+ in field battle.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 20, 2009 03:31 PM |
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Quote:
In my opinion there is one urgent need in the game, magic heros closer to might as efficiency. Once they are competitive at least, then synergies for boosting both classes would be interesting. Being competitive may use various bonuses, from economic to magic damage, not only on battlefield, to avoid monotony. Diplomacy for example could be linked not to the HP power or skill but on some fame points, due to synergies. Now we can extrapolate for years still some concrete and doable ideas should raise.
And yes, IMHO all tactics have a counter, at least this is how we played it for years. You imagine that if we could find a flaw we would exploit it thus going to ban it, but did not happen. I like the "no rules" game
Me too
Well, i think there will be very nice boni for magic heroes. But applying some spell at start to all (or all same aligned) stacks will be limited to magic casters. You will need some magic school or a spell speciality for it. But those beneficial spells at startup will not be the only bonus. Especially direct damage spells will be boosted if casted by heroes with the right skill combos. The code is already done, i just have to adapt it to the current system. We'll see if this way magic heroes gain sufficient effectiveness
Finding good boni for magic heroes is not that easy, though.
Update: Here's first barbarian skill combo (Script and map online not yet updated):
Gretchin already comes with offense and pathfinding.
BTW: Either i'll make the dialogue box more beautiful or i'll skip that completely
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Paulemile
Known Hero
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posted November 20, 2009 08:44 PM |
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You are working pretty fast
I can't help you to find better ideas right now, but I'll answer to the magic-heroes point.
To me, the thing the magic heroes need is to be able to cast more than one spell per round.
This has been discussed several times and some good features have been found through it.
Some people (remember of domm3d) tried to do this and managed to come up with something IIRC.
Maybe you are feeling capable to scrpit such a system 
Let me know if you want to discuss it more.
I'll come back to morrow maybe, to comment your synergies...
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idiotpariah
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 21, 2009 04:47 AM |
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The adventure cave script includes a script to allow you to cast spells twice per round so that could ripped off and added in I guess.
To make magic heroes a better choice the best way would be to prevent might heroes being able to get the wisdom skill (so no access to the powerful adventure map spells) OR prevent them getting expert level in any magic (maximum advanced). At the minute the most powerful combat spells don't need a high spell power- slow and haste, they just need an expert slow/earth magic (or water for prayer). Think it would be hard to script maximising it to advanced but I would imagine preventing them from learning wisdom (or replacing wisdom with another skill) would be easier. Would then clearly delineate might and magic heroes. Might heroes would still rule the roost on Small and medium maps but on extra large maps magic heroes should be stronger due to their high level adventure spells.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 21, 2009 10:00 AM |
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The idea of casting twice per round is interesting. maybe i'll do something like that. But 1 step after the other. Currently i'm just implementing the barbarian boni. I call them barbarian boni because barbarians have the highest probability of gaining them and the optimal specialities and first 2 or 3 skills to enhance the bonus. But all these boni will in theory be open to any.
Additional magic in combat: I once had another idea, at least for siege battle: Any time the turrets shoot cast a random direct damage spell at the same target, selected from the towns magic guild. But that has nothing to do with the hero skill combo boost, that's a different thing.
For field battle there could be a similar thing, if a caster also has artillery: Do the same thing when ballista shoots. Spell randomly selected from heroes spell book. That has more in common with the skill combo boost When time is right i'll implement that.
BTW: I'm slightly changing the firrst combo effect: Offense+Pathfinding gives the speed boost only to living melee troops of same alignment. If has archery too (so the combo offense+pathfinding+archery), then archers of same alignment are included, too. This Combo is Gretchins speciality, she already comes with offense and pathfinding. So her goblins get quite some speed
A testmap will be online this evening, i'll post the url.
What is still to be done is artifact and terrain modification.
P.S. I've just updatet the sample pic. Now it is Gretchin with advanced offense, basic pathfinding, offense as first skill and pathfinding as second skill and goblin speciality. I have reduced the bonus, so it is not that much. We'll see if this is appropriate.
Update: I think i change the messaging. Instead of boring messages all heck you get it only if you want to. That is, if you left-click the hero name in the hero information screen:
I think this is better. Or what do you think?
Update: testmap online no.zip
And the effect reduction is removed again. It is more fun with full bonus
hehe 
The idea of catching the enemy surrounded is nice. i like it. It just interferes with tactics. You can't move the troops relocatet to the right in tactics mode. But besides that the idea is very nice. I like it.
This is now the bonus if a hero has offense and scouting. I took shiva here, as she already comes with these 2 skills, and thus they are the first 2 skills, which gives the highest probability of getting this
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 21, 2009 08:54 PM |
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Quote:
To make magic heroes a better choice the best way would be to prevent might heroes being able to get the wisdom skill (so no access to the powerful adventure map spells) OR prevent them getting expert level in any magic (maximum advanced).
Well, the idea of limiting levelling in some skills is not that good. If, then i'd prefere to prevent getting wisdom at all for might heroes. But i don't know how. I can set the skills to be offered when levelling, but i can not check them (the result simply gives the "use default" result. Not really useful.
Quote:
At the minute the most powerful combat spells don't need a high spell power- slow and haste, they just need an expert slow/earth magic (or water for prayer). Think it would be hard to script maximising it to advanced but I would imagine preventing them from learning wisdom (or replacing wisdom with another skill) would be easier. Would then clearly delineate might and magic heroes. Might heroes would still rule the roost on Small and medium maps but on extra large maps magic heroes should be stronger due to their high level adventure spells.
Unfortunately there is no post-levelling trigger. So no chance to check after levelling. And then there are those witch huts, universities, scholars and so on.
No, i think, simply preventing is either not possible or not that useful. But maybe here in this script reducing non-magic bonus if has magic skill may be an idea, and then reduce magic bonus if has some non-magic skills, too?
The problem is that with enough bad luck you get offered only 2 magic skills or 2 non-magic skills for the wrong hero. This is not always controllable.
For scholars it may be an idea, when visiting, quickly adapt skill, if offering skill. So if offering magic skill, and the visiting hero is non-magic, quickly change it into a non-magic skill. Or better, a primary skill (easier to implement). And vice versa.
BTW, i thought of extending the eagle eye/scouting combo by getting the info about those scholars and universities when right-clicked when such a hero is active. Will cost movement points, too, and is only possible once a day. May be extended to dwelling hints and the like, too. But that might conflict with the quick-change of the scholars. So either this or that.
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idiotpariah
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 22, 2009 07:31 AM |
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Well if you can set what skills can be offered per level you can simply disallow wisdom- the vast majority of magic heroes start with it as default (all I think except for one or two modified by WOG but its easy to script it in through the existing hero modification script). You can probably ban it from witch huts and scholars easily enough.
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 22, 2009 09:46 AM |
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No
The problem is, i can set what 2 skills are offered when levelling. But i can not set what skills not to offer. There is an erm receiver to set these 2 skills (and the primary skill). So you have to choose what skills if you don't want to rely on the automatic. That would be possible only by implementing a completely own system.
The problem here is, this erm receiver can not really be used to check what skills the automatic would offer, and thejn replace wisdom with something else. I tried it. If you check, the result is -2, which means "do not change". The result is not the skill offered by the automatic.
So either you have to implement a completely own new system of skills when levelling, or there is no chance of avoiding wisdom for might heroes.
To do that it is necessary to change the hctraits.txt. There you can set the probability of each secondary skill and each hero class. If you there set the probability for all might heroes to get wisdom to 0, then the automatic would not offer that if might hero. There is already such a skill which has a probability of 0 for most heroes: Necromancy. But still that does not make it impossible for f.ex. a knight to get it: There are witch huts, universities and scholars. These could be scripted, though. For university it would f.ex. be possible, in the pre-visit trigger, give the hero wisdom, then let him buy skills, then in the post-visit trigger, remove wisdom.
It may be possible that setting the probability to 0 already disables buying that in the university. At least as far as i know it is impossible for a knight to buy necromancy at the university.
So the first step and prerequisite for any other step here would be changing the hctraits.txt.
Update: Continued bonus implementing.
Offense/Pathfinding: Speed+ for melee troops of same alignment. If also has Archery, then for shooters too. For attacker only.
Armorer/Pathfinding: Speed+ for melee troops of same alignment. If has Archery too then for shooters too. For defender only.
Offense/Tactics: AT+ horde (formation) bonus for all melee troops of same alignment. If has Archery too for shooters too.
Armorer/Tactics: DF+ horde (formation) bonus for all melee troops of same alignment. If has Archery too for shooters too.
Offense/Scouting: Chance of catching the enemy surrounded in field battle. Probability may be countered by opposite hero Armorer/Scouting.
Offense/Artillery: Max damage bonus in field battle. may be countered by opposite hero Armorer/Artillery.
Offense/Ballistics: Max damage bonus in siege battle. May be countered by opposite hero Armorer/Ballistics.
Changed the "golden bow" bonus to Archery/Artillery in field battle and Archery/Ballistics in siege battle.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 23, 2009 12:18 PM |
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I would not prohibit getting wisdom as well for might heros, as this would penalize them greatly. There are spells like town portal, force field, antimagic which are required for them if need a chance against magic ones.
But there would be a solution to low magic skills by -1 if expert when a battle starts for might heros, so casting mass spells is not possible. Still one can argue that a level is lost. Modifying Ctraits does not change this, as you can't change "might can get advanced but not expert".
Another way would be to change the mass spells school. Slow, haste, cure and berserk go in a school which is prohibited to might while all other spells are acting normal. So the might can still enjoy fly, town portal, antimagic expert but can't learn a dummy school which contains only the 4 most powerful mass spells, slow, haste, cure and berserk. For getting this working, a school (lets say air) should be fully emptied then add only 4 spells to it, while assigning the spells removed among other schools. Doable and not complicated.
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Era II mods and utilities
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted November 23, 2009 01:14 PM |
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Siegfried, can you please make script for new blank artifact: "Eternal candle". It should make visible 100% artifacts that are within (hero radius)+1, 30% artifacts within (hero radius)+2 and 5% within (hero radius)+3. Artifact should be type: Minor, should appear during random map generation. Picture of artifact doesn't matter (can be any), we have good painters and they will do it later.
____________
I play HoMM3 at www.heroes-
III.com
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Siegfried
Famous Hero
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posted November 23, 2009 01:37 PM |
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Interesting idea. Which artifact?
Can't continue doday. I think i've to pause until friday
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted November 23, 2009 01:51 PM |
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ERM allows to add new artifacts into the game. They are called "blank" artifacts, by default they do nothing, however you can set their functions by ERM.
____________
I play HoMM3 at www.heroes-
III.com
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 23, 2009 10:10 PM |
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This thread is pages long: 
