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| Thread: seriously, what's wrong with socialist policies? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
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posted October 21, 2009 02:49 AM |
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Isn't that what the US army does too?
I wasn't aware that it was the function of the US Army to redistribute wealth.
No but it protects everyone equally, but a millionaire pays more to it. Furthermore, using the same line of reasoning, one could say that he does not want to be protected because he is able to defend himself, unlike let's say, a handicapped person.
Surely enough with the army it's a whole different matter than ANY other service, rightey? (health care included)
I thought it was obvious, but maybe you're just playing dumb 
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Berny-Mac
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posted October 21, 2009 02:52 AM |
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Isn't that what the US army does too?
I wasn't aware that it was the function of the US Army to redistribute wealth.
No but it protects everyone equally, but a millionaire pays more to it. Furthermore, using the same line of reasoning, one could say that he does not want to be protected because he is able to defend himself, unlike let's say, a handicapped person.
Surely enough with the army it's a whole different matter than ANY other service, rightey? (health care included)
I thought it was obvious, but maybe you're just playing dumb
Well, from that perspective, it makes sense, I was just a little confuzzled.
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mvassilev
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posted October 21, 2009 02:57 AM |
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del_diablo
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posted October 21, 2009 10:03 AM |
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A socialist idea, welfare, in fact makes the poor suffer more than help because it doesn't make them work for the money, which not only doesn't help them rise to success, but takes away more money from other people and the government.
Your talking about BAD welfare, where you get the equal amounts of money on the dole as with working. It does not work that way.
You would work, because you can only cling to life on the money you get. You would only survive getting ill while on the dole, since you get healthcare. But you would want a job so you can afford good dinner at a restaurant instead of none, buying more cloths.
Its the same incentive in the green state as in your blue to rise, since its more the better.
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Also, socialism typically supports higher taxes, and who likes taxes?
And what is bad about taxes? Taxes that it taxes, is just saved is idiocy. Taxes that is spent reasonable(army, healthcare, schools, roads) is good taxes, because you get something back because of it.
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No one (except the guys that collect it, I'm sure). What would help is tax cuts, because that lets the individual citizen keep more money. And what do people do when they have more money? They spend it. And who gets the money from them? Businesses, therefore stimulating economy, and also giving the government a cut of it as well (sales taxes).
Which requires a nation so rich that nothing can go wrong. There exists no such nation. Without the taxes, what is going to be cut? The road is left to the public company, the schools are all private and expensive, the police would be thug organizations for hire. The people would pay more money, more would get poor. With more poor the few in the middleclass would fall down, and it would get even more expensive. The only people with benefit from this is the really rich, since it does not matter to them.
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Health care...(sigh...)...government run health care tends to...well...suck. Not only is the quality lower than healthcare companies, it also destroys many healthcare companies (if not all) as well, lowering the state of the economy.
To have freedom, you need choices. And what about a "minimum standard" bill for the healthcare? Even thought of that "smartass"?
Last time i checked the Norwegian standard for healthcare was not low, but the standard of healthcare for the really rich in America is high. For the poor is non-existing, the the middleclass it will work so long nothing serious happens. And they would have the choice of a permanent loan which will eat them and they cannot pay back, and letting somebody die.
The only thing i question is a completely red country nation, how much is possible? We all know that a completely blue nation is impossible, the free marked would destroy itself without any regulations. Whether or not a red state is possible is questionable, and we do not know yet.
We do however know a proper red-green state works, that is facts after quite the amount of combined economy on many countries.
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bixie
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posted October 21, 2009 10:19 AM |
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some very interesting points here.
I just want to point out it's socialist policies not socialism itself. it's about the personal experiences of national healthcare (which I have and it has saved my life) schoolings, welfare and housing.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but the possiblity of having at least a minimum standard is better than no safety net.
picture yourself in this situation. your in a public place, and you have a heart attack. isn't it better to have a team of paramedics ready to rush you to the nearest hospital WITHOUT checking your wallet to see if you can pay?
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Minion
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posted October 21, 2009 12:15 PM |
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I have terrible vision thanks to socialist health care.
If you mean the soviet unions heath care it is hardly the same we have here in Finland for example. It is like eating a chocolate cake from the garbage bin and being certain that chocolate cake tastes horrible everywhere.
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mvassilev
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posted October 21, 2009 04:39 PM |
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No, it's Russian health care, which is supposed to be a lot better than that of the Soviet Union.
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Darkshadow
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posted October 21, 2009 04:44 PM |
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I have terrible vision thanks to socialist health care.
If you mean the soviet unions heath care it is hardly the same we have here in Finland for example. It is like eating a chocolate cake from the garbage bin and being certain that chocolate cake tastes horrible everywhere.
Quality?*looks around* Where?
*sees the flag of Norway* Oh there!
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The_Gootch
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posted October 21, 2009 09:23 PM |
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For all of you nonamericans
The far right despises Obama so much that the pejorative version of liberal they bandy about just isn't resonating enough among the american people. So, they've decided to up the ante and call Obama and the rest of the dems socialists, ostensibly to invoke visions of Soviet Russia among us.
It's transparent, ignorant, and yes shameless, fear mongering. But that's all the far right has to offer, the politics of hate and resentment, whenever they're not in power. <expletive deleted>'em.
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wog_edn
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posted October 21, 2009 09:31 PM |
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About the US stuff .. Bush got two tries, give Obama a chance and see if he can make a difference. If he can't he probably won't be re-elected I guess. Not that I am a part of the US and know alot of stuff about politics or anything though!
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Berny-Mac
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posted October 22, 2009 12:03 AM |
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Let's see...stimulus bill! Great! Quadruple our national debt and greatly lowering the value of the dollar? Awesome! Also, taking the American economy down? Brilliant! Good idea? Absolutely!
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Elodin
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posted October 23, 2009 01:02 AM |
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The far right despises Obama so much that the pejorative version of liberal they bandy about just isn't resonating enough among the american people. So, they've decided to up the ante and call Obama and the rest of the dems socialists, ostensibly to invoke visions of Soviet Russia among us.
It's transparent, ignorant, and yes shameless, fear mongering. But that's all the far right has to offer, the politics of hate and resentment, whenever they're not in power. <expletive deleted>'em.
Actually, Obama has said he wants to redistribute wealth and that he surrounded himself with Marxist professors in college. And he has surrounded himself with socialists and communists in his administration.
So saying Obama is a socialist is not fear mongering, it is truth telling. The dimocratic party is the party of racism and discrimination, not the Republican Party. I am an independant by the way.
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TheDeath
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posted October 23, 2009 01:04 AM |
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Redistributing wealth or national healthcare is discrimination? Wow you learn something new everyday. [/sarcasm]
On the other hand I think in the current state, people without money are discriminated.
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Berny-Mac
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posted October 23, 2009 01:11 AM |
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I don't think he was saying that redistributing wealth and government healthcare is discrimination. More like the fact that the Democrats were the ones that attempted to secede from the US in the Civil War mainly because they wanted to keep slavery (discrimination much?). The Republicans were the Northerners, the Union, basically, and they wanted to free the slaves.
Another example, Jim Crow! Democrat.
Woodrow Wilson...he was all for discrimination...Democrat.
And my personal favorite, though he wasn't a democrat, just a horrible person and a big time socialist - Adolf Hitler. And guess what!? He employed many many ideas that the democrats (and some Republicans too) wish to pass, such as government healthcare, redistribution of wealth, and other socialist plans. I dunno, but that doesn't sound very positive...
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Shyranis
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posted October 23, 2009 05:17 AM |
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I don't think he was saying that redistributing wealth and government healthcare is discrimination. More like the fact that the Democrats were the ones that attempted to secede from the US in the Civil War mainly because they wanted to keep slavery (discrimination much?). The Republicans were the Northerners, the Union, basically, and they wanted to free the slaves.
Also Martin Luther King was a Republican. But the Democrats of back then are not the Democrats of now. Neither party is good, or honest, or true, or entirely non-racist. The Democrats and Republicans effectively started swapping states, starting the Harry Truman's desegregation of the Military (which had been segregated for almost 200 years at that point). This lead to the civil rights movement, and Lyndon Johnson effectively threw Democratic power in the South away. Nixon swooped in and took advantage with his Southern Strategy, targetting Disenfranchised whites who (even if they were only a minority) were enough to Tip the Balance for him twice. In some ways, Obama's election was a Northern Strategy, also using similar tactics. The States have not been radically different in their voting patterns since.
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Another example, Jim Crow! Democrat.
And a ripe snow he was.
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Woodrow Wilson...he was all for discrimination...Democrat.
He deserves the hate he gets too.
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And my personal favorite, though he wasn't a democrat, just a horrible person and a big time socialist - Adolf Hitler.
Socialist Military maybe. He was a Corporatist, trading public money for political favours from the big companies, who had a lot of power. He was a horrible person, but please try to see the difference between socialist, corporatist and communist. They all hate each other.
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And guess what!? He employed many many ideas that the democrats (and some Republicans too) wish to pass, such as government healthcare, redistribution of wealth, and other socialist plans.
Government healthcare was opposed by the Fascists. They tried to remove it but realized they'd face a revolution. So they only removed it for Minorities. Redistribution of wealth? By taking over other countries and taking over their resources I suppose it is. Or are you talking about the redistribution of wealth from Minorities to the "pure blood" Germans. Such moves would cause an instant coup in America. That's not happening. Can you actually name any of the "Other Socialist Plans"?
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I dunno, but that doesn't sound very positive...
Both Parties are equally racist and discriminatory. They just do it in different ways. Parties do evolve though, both the Democrats and Republicans are far from what they used to be. Both are sullied, broken, sorry parties with one hand in the people's pocket, the other in the corporation's (oh so many lobbyists).
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Berny-Mac
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posted October 23, 2009 05:19 AM |
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hey, don't judge me, I read it in a book once, and a confusing book it was too.
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mvassilev
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posted October 23, 2009 05:23 AM |
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Perhaps it is not quite accurate to call Nazi Germany socialist, but it did pursue Keynesian policies that are to the left of many modern labourite parties.
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Shyranis
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posted October 23, 2009 05:30 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 05:35, 23 Oct 2009.
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hey, don't judge me, I read it in a book once, and a confusing book it was too.
I'm not judging you, just saying we can't take everything at face value.
It would be like if people really thought this. Which nobody does.
The world is not black and white, or it would be too easy.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 23, 2009 07:39 AM |
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Disregarding for the moment the fact that the "socialist" part with the fascists in Germany was purely in name...
Can we please stop trying to discriminate things by coming up with really bad people who were supposedly X or Y?
After all, Hitler was a human as well - so humans are real something to better kill and burn, right? Oh, and he really liked dogs, a treat that should be seen very carefully with everyone, since dogs are known to need a tough education and a hard hand, so a faible for dogs must clearly be seen as a tendency to authoritarian, dictatorian style, right?
So, please, give dead people their well-deserved rest, will you?
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bixie
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posted October 23, 2009 10:33 AM |
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Hang on just a moment!
as far as i can remember, Hitler hated the communists, the reason why he got into power is the fact the nazi party framed a communist for starting the reichstag fire, how could you call him a socialist?
if anything, the Nazi's ideas on racial purity were anything but communist. I mean, one race that is superior to all, all the others must serve or die, that's about as anti communist as they come.
is it just me, or are people calling him a socialist because of his party was the national socialist party. the reason why they were called that was because it would appeal to the workers, National for the rich, socialist for the poor, it was nothing to do with their policies.
and as for the history of the democrat party, that was then, this is now! how can it be a party of racism and discrimination when they have (excuse me) BARACK OBAMA, THE ONLY BLACK PRESIDENT, IN OFFICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I started this thread to understand why people, particularly hard right conservatives, thought was bad about socialism. at it's heart, it doesn't seem that evil, sharing around wealth so that everyone has an equal chance in life. weren't we all tought that was good on sesame street? and in some way's isn't that was capitalism is, having as good a chance as the next guy to acheiving what you want?
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