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| Thread: Confirmed: goblins are the unit in Heroes V!! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 28, 2010 01:17 PM |
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H5 is further biased by introducing skills like battle frenzy and vitality 
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2010 02:32 PM |
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in homm2 low level units sucked (except skeletons)
I kinda remember the bone dragons being easy to get. maybe easier than paladins. most of the time I played the sorceress, despite she has one of the weakest line-up, she has also the fastest one (with phoenix you get the 1st move and the 1st casting)
in homm 4, levels 1 and 2 were close to useless in end game, except for some exceptions, like the medusa. There is also one game I won thanks to cerberi. I had none in my army, but summoned hundreds of them 
there was a big gap between the strength of level 2 and level 3 creatures it seems.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 30, 2010 10:45 PM |
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It was typical of the essential (and, in my opinion, elegant) game-designing of Heroes 4; units differed a lot both between different levels (sporting significant gaps in power one with another) and different alternatives (leading to very different playstyles in one or the other case).
This was one of the reason that made just any unit capable of stand its ground against a superior-level unit quite extraordinaire - see vampires.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 31, 2010 01:56 AM |
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actually in H4, it seemed level 1, 2 units could do almost nothing against level 3, 4
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 31, 2010 02:11 PM |
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Quote:
actually in H4, it seemed level 1, 2 units could do almost nothing against level 3, 4
Which is exactly what I just said....?
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sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
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posted February 01, 2010 11:15 AM |
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Heroes of M&M 2-5, melee unit cost efficiency, COMPLETE:
http://cid-2cc011c7190f36c8.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/HOMM2to5%20tanking%20power.xls
About the relevence of cost-efficiency:
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That doesn't make a whole lot of sense you know. Perhaps if you have like 1000 gold and can't hire anything else..
In Heroes4, towns really make 1000g a turn, so it's very relevent. Also, in Heroes5, all towns other than capital make 2000g a turn, so it also matters, somewhat.
I mentioned in Heroes5, lower-tier units are more efficient. In Heroes4, the same thing happens, FAR more obviously. In Heroes4 the lower_tier >>> higher_tier is almost strict.
When I say the older HOMM may be better balanced, I am not kidding. I am absolutely serious.
Quote:
actually in H4, it seemed level 1, 2 units could do almost nothing against level 3, 4
Vampires are universally acclaimed as a very good unit in Heroes4. Try pitching 1 vampire (1100g) against 73 peasants (1095g), see what happens. Scale it up and its even worse because vampires start dying and their damage output decreases during the fight. Try the same thing with Nagas.
I wonder how Heroes6 will be balanced...
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2010 02:41 PM |
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oh yes momo, just didn't understand you
sylvanllewelyn : maybe, except the growth of vampires is 3 and growth of peasants is 30 maybe. so if you want your level 1 stacks to be stronger than your level 3, 4 stacks, you need a hell of a lots of external dwellings.
and by the way, I think the vampire will win, because of no retaliation + life drain. actually, if he uses a hit and run tactic, he is sure to win.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 01, 2010 03:31 PM |
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Quote:
In Heroes4, towns really make 1000g a turn, so it's very relevent. Also, in Heroes5, all towns other than capital make 2000g a turn, so it also matters, somewhat.
Fail.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 02, 2010 03:22 PM |
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Quote:
Vampires are universally acclaimed as a very good unit in Heroes4. Try pitching 1 vampire (1100g) against 73 peasants (1095g), see what happens. Scale it up and its even worse because vampires start dying and their damage output decreases during the fight. Try the same thing with Nagas.
Try picking 1000 gnoll vs one of just about tier7 in Heroes 3 and see what happens.
From such an experiment you can draw one of the following conclusions:
1. gnoll is THE unit in Heroes 3.
2. it rarely occurs that you are gifted with 1000 gnolls and all the opponent has is a Behemoth or whatever.
Now man, I understand where you're coming from. I know that some unexperienced players will try to get tier7s as soon as possible rather than get low-tier first and yes, we all agree this is both a military and management mistake. However, this hardly make low-tiers the only worthwile units in the game except in your scenario (100 or so low-tiers vs 1 higher tier) which is unlikely to the point of being unrelevant.
Case closed, really.
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sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
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posted February 04, 2010 09:48 AM |
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Maybe the concept of expanding production in a single town by increasing marginal cost seems too abstract, I don't know.
But let's start with shieldguards, costing 40 gold.
Assume the dwarf town has only has shieldguards.
Now assume that you could purchase another 30 of them, this time for 60 gold each.
Now you want more - so you get another 30 of them, this time for 80 gold each.
Assume you could keep getting more shieldguards, at +20 gold each for the next 30 units.
Question: how many shieldguards would you get?
Because as far as cost/benefit is concerned, this is pretty much what getting higher-level creatures is. Only difference is they are aggregated into bigger units.
Now assume I have 3 dwarf town, and they still only have shieldguards. If I want more shieldguards, you would not be hiring them out the same castle. I would allocate them to minimize cost for the same things.
Similarly, if I have multiple towns, and limited resources, I would spend the gold hiring low-level creatures first, because I'll never have enough gold for everything. Might as well save on the dwelling costs too.
Now OBVIOUSLY this is asymptotics, which may not work in small-scaled fights, because 1 large creature doesn't decrease damage when it is 50% injured.
It almost feels like because maps are designed with few towns, and capitals make too much gold relative to creature production, Nival forces you to buy cool-looking large beasts that are inefficient, by virtue of growth limitations. That's not cool, it just feels very artificial.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 04, 2010 10:08 AM |
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Methinks you are playing the wrong game. I understand what you are saying mind you but you are probably the only one out there seeing things in this light.
And artificial? If you were a medieval general you'd be depending more on your cavalry or swordsmen than peasants, is that artificial too? Quality costs extra and where H5 is vastly different than its predecessors is the upgrades. Back in H3 you could effortlessly build and upgrade almost every single dwelling, now you have to put some thought on where to invest your gold. In a regular game if you want to have the best maximum army by week 2-3 you'll have to skip some dwellings, possibly not buy some army and pick carefully what to upgrade so as to maximize your effectiveness. Even later on gold is normally not enough to upgrade everything if you want to keep recruiting all units.
That is where heroes is interesting, rest is idle chat that goes nowhere. It's not like your lower tiers are that much weaker, H5 is the only game of the series that can boost them so as to stand up to higher tiers. Even so coolness is coolness, can't argue with that Might as well play checkers if you want all your units to be the same.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 04, 2010 03:03 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 15:06, 04 Feb 2010.
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Quote:
Maybe the concept of expanding production in a single town by increasing marginal cost seems too abstract, I don't know.
It's not abstract, we fully got it after you exemplified it thrice. It still happens that I (among others) disagree.
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Because as far as cost/benefit is concerned, this is pretty much what getting higher-level creatures is. Only difference is they are aggregated into bigger units.
No, that's not true! Because of at the very least three reasons. I just don't understand if you are purposedly ignoring it or we are explaining it badly or you simply don't get it.
I'll try to explain those for the last time, and if you still avoid to respond to the fundamental counterpoints, I'll just assume you're trolling and live on.
1) the least important reason - you said it yourself:
Quote:
1 large creature doesn't decrease damage when it is 50% injured.
More generally, high lvl creatures die harder and kill easier than low lvl ones. That's why a small stack of tier7s has game against an average stack of tier1s.
2) each unit is unique: having 200 shieldguards may look as good as having 100 shieldguards and 50 harponeers (or even better) from a math standpoint, but no matter how many of them you have, they can't shoot and therefore can't deal with small fights without losses. Calculations may say 200 shieldguards are better than 50 magma dragons, but you can't go Dragon-Geddon with 200 (or even 1000 for that matters) shieldguards. And 2000 Shieldguards can still be puppeteed or frenzied, but a lone Black Dragon cannot. What creature you need all depends on the situation, therefore just thinking to rely just on low-tiers is fallacious.
3) the final, and most important reason -which I'm trying to point out since the beginning- is that IF YOUR TOWN MANAGEMENT IS GOOD, YOU USUALLY CAN BUY ALL LOW-TIERS WHILE STILL HAVING MONEY FOR HIGHER TIERS making your whole reasoning unrelevant. On the contrary of what you seem to be thinking, no one -NO ONE- will try desperately to get magma drags in month 1 while wasting money, resources and time, leaving shieldguards and other low-tiers at home. No one plays like that and no one has the problem you are so desperately trying to illustrate and solve.
Now if you have coherent, pertaining points to make, be my guest.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 04, 2010 03:09 PM |
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Some people play the game, others talk about it in the forum. Theorycrafting ftw.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 04, 2010 03:58 PM |
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Quote:
Some people play the game, others talk about it in the forum. Theorycrafting ftw.
Well, I feel sorry if the discussion is boring you up.
I think theory (in games) is useful, especially for those who lack the time to learn everything there's to learn by experience. And when theory leads in a completely different route from reality, it usually is the theorist's fault.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 04, 2010 04:06 PM |
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Kinda where I was getting at. I think it is safe to say we both understand his point but also recognize that it has no footing in reality.
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sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
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posted February 05, 2010 12:15 AM |
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Momo:
As I understand it, points 1 and 2 are to support the idea that the abstraction from reality in the model is so abstractED from reality that it becomes USELESS. Point 3 is saying that the problem the model is trying to solve DOES NOT EXIST. I get you. You don't have to use all-caps, bold AND underline.
It's just the geeky part of me, but I just find the design mechanics of the HOMM series very INTERESTING. And yes, I played since HOMM2, and yes, I do hire high-level creatures. I'm not *that* bad at the game.
Speaking of trolls, I just realised I don't see any in HOMM5. I have to say in small-scaled fights their regeneration is annoying.
Maybe I ask you this then: do you think this is the right direction to go for HOMM6? Make small units more cost-efficient, but give more abilities to large units? Do you think the use of growth-limitations is working? Or maybe injured units deal reduced damage?
Elvin:
Actually, in a typical medieval fight, most people were militias rather than professional soldiers. Poor nations will rely almost exclusively on militias while wealthier nations would support it with professional forces. If you lacked funds, nobody would spend it all on a small professional force.
Yes, I realise Momo made it VERY CLEAR that nobody playing HOMM5 will make that mistake, but still, the point that cheap units are more efficient in general still stands. Of course, in the real world, nations could hire 3000 units a week, not 40.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 05, 2010 12:58 AM |
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And that would be boring, cannon fodder to die in the front lines.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted February 05, 2010 02:22 AM |
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Is the phoenix the best neutral?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 05, 2010 02:42 AM |
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depends if the deadly strike of the death knight triggers or no
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted February 05, 2010 04:33 PM |
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Haven't written anything on the forums for quite some time, but seeing this funny thread I just have to say this:
I'm pretty sure that for the same amount of money almost every melee unit will masacrate goblins, and also can endure much more damage.
People should play the game, I mean really play and then talk.
Listen to Elvin, he knows "a few" things about gameplay. )
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