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| Thread: The fine line of tax and socity? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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mvassilev
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posted January 30, 2010 03:12 AM |
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del_diablo:
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A ravaged marked where we got massive amounts of poor people who never stood a chance at getting back into the middle class?
The American poor have plenty of opportunities to get into the middle class. We have universal education and free text books. There's really no excuse.
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And why is the private sector "better"
Because when you do something for yourself, it will inherently be better than when someone else tries to do something for you.
Minion:
I'm not being patriotic here. A lot of things about America suck. It's just that the rest of the world sucks even more.
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Mytical
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posted January 30, 2010 08:50 AM |
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Yes and no Mvass...yes and no. First most 'poor' have to work one or two jobs to make ends meet. If they have children, or such, there just is no time for 'advanced' education. Even if they are able to go to college, etc (like myself)..somehow maintain straight A's..and graduate top of their class..the fact that they have to go to community college means that somebody with a less public college education who gets 'C's' would be hired over them. So the poor do NOT have the same opportunities as the rich.
Lets say that with scholorships, grants, loans, and help..the poor person does manage to have the same education as a richer person. The richer person usually has connections (either from their parents, or such) to get the inside track on jobs anyhow. Or they don't need jobs..as they can start their own business..or have a business already in place.
So..while a 'poor' person has to work super hard, a 'rich' person can skate by a lot more easy.
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bixie
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posted January 30, 2010 09:17 AM |
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I am a student, and thus, exempt from taxes, so my oppinion might not have much validity.
However, my view is that taxes help make a community and a society function. it's great to have independent freedom and to choose how you govern you're own finances, but if everyone did that, that society will crumble, and money would mean nothing, simply because you would have individual people governing individual states of one popuplation.
the whole point of a country or of a nation is community, being a part of something bigger, solidarity, and being able to team up and stomp on the next tribes face. as part of a country, we need to give something to the community in order to maintain the community itself. "United we stand, divided we fall" is pretty much what's going on here.
if you don't want to spend money on trying to improve lives for people less well off than you because you believe that their lack of life chances and dismissal look at the future is something to do with them being lazy, then annex yourself from the country you live in and set up you're own independent nation. hey, peter griffin did it.
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mvassilev
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posted January 30, 2010 10:45 AM |
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Mytical:
If the poor are truly poor, there are numerous scholarships available for them. But that's not the issue as much as them not even beginning to try - dropping out of high school, for example.
bixie:
I'm a liberal, not an anarchist. As much as I'd like to just have whatever I want, I recognise that it's actually more in my interest to have public goods managed by the government (as long as they're managed well, of course).
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if you don't want to spend money on trying to improve lives for people less well off than you because you believe that their lack of life chances and dismissal look at the future is something to do with them being lazy, then annex yourself from the country you live in and set up you're own independent nation.
Unfortunately for me, people can't just decide to pay for whatever they want.
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bixie
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posted January 30, 2010 11:14 AM |
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Mytical:
If the poor are truly poor, there are numerous scholarships available for them. But that's not the issue as much as them not even beginning to try - dropping out of high school, for example.
the majority of the people who need to drop out of highschools mainly down to helping their family survive by going into full time employment. it's a difficult choice, between ruin you're chances or f**k over you're family.
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bixie:
I'm a liberal, not an anarchist. As much as I'd like to just have whatever I want, I recognise that it's actually more in my interest to have public goods managed by the government (as long as they're managed well, of course).
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if you don't want to spend money on trying to improve lives for people less well off than you because you believe that their lack of life chances and dismissal look at the future is something to do with them being lazy, then annex yourself from the country you live in and set up you're own independent nation.
Unfortunately for me, people can't just decide to pay for whatever they want.
Taxations comes over for roman times, where the only ways for rome to get rich was invasions (see gaul, as the gauls had a huge amount of gold that they were digging up and trading), genocide (see the Dacian, also trajans collumn, an entire civilisation wiped out so that emperor trajan could get a bit more money) and taxation of their provice (basically, pay up of we march in and place this place under marshal law, or leave you to the barbarians). the idea of paying for a centralised power comes from roman civilisation were cities would be forced to pay for romes upkeep.
However, now, our governments are more mature and understanding than the prepubecent demanding roman dictatorship. sharing the wealth around into stuff that is usefull, like schools, hospitals, roads, and so on.
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Mytical
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posted January 30, 2010 11:26 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:34, 30 Jan 2010.
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Believe me Mvass, by American standards..I know what poor is. True, a lot of people have it worse then I have, but that is neither here nor there. My dad got injured on the job 6 months after I was born, and pretty much got the shaft from the company and lawyers. We are talking a serious injury. My mom did what she could, and take care of us AND him, but we were poor. Very poor.
At age 16 I started working. Menial tasks, all that I was 'qualified' for. I took summer classes willingly to learn and earn extra money. I fought, clawed, scratched, and finally made it to 'lower lower middle class'. Having to work sometimes two jobs at a time. At 18 went to the military, my one chance to get out of the pit we were in. Was told ..."Oh we can't keep you, you have a possibly communicable disease.." (Ignore the fact that short of heridetary the chance of it being contagious was less then .00001%).
So I went to college, while working. No scholorships, because I had went to the military instead of straight to college, and because I was tossed out do to 'preexisting medical conditions' nothing from the military either. Did great for abit. Worked nights, school days..while maintaining a great GPA. Until I had to pick up yet another job just to afford things. Yeah I know..cry you a river right? Hey I am not crying about it. I did what I had to do, it is all on me.
Just don't tell me I had all the same opportunities as some rich fat cat kid. Who can focus SOLEY on education while mommy and/or Daddy pays their way. So yeah, I am going back to college now because I HAVE fought up to lower lower middle class from poverty. Even though despite a lot of overtime I can barely make ends meet. I still make about half the national average. Which is worlds better then what I come from. But as for equal chance? Nah, never had an equal shot. Hey, life isn't fair. You can wine about it or make the best of what you got.
Now ask me if I would rather work for the person who held a job, watched their kid, and graduated from a public college and got so so grades..or a rich kid that had their education taken care of who got amazing grades. Unfortunately..I am not the one with the money who decides who gets the job. That rich kids dad/mom or their friends are.
The Moral to this is, my life is actually easy compaired to some of the poor. Yeah, I made progress..but some just don't have the opportunities..don't have a chance. Just because they are born in the wrong area, or other unfortunate circumstances they live in.
Do some make it out? Heck yeah. Very very few and far between. Not because they didn't try hard enough, or were not smart enough, but because the deck was stacked against them from the word :GO"
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JollyJoker
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posted January 30, 2010 12:27 PM |
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There's another thing to consider: if there is no equality in chances - and there isn't, since the more assets someone has, the better the chances to get more -, the longer the odds for people to actually "succeed" in the "game", the more they are inclined to disregard the official rules and CHEAT.
Worse: no matter the assets someone has, the bigger the chances to fail (the smaller the chance for success) the higher the inclination to cheat, given an equal stake.
What tips the scales, is the stress a (the) system puts on honesty (following the rules) compared to success (winning), and the consequences, cheating has.
The bottom line is, that everything stands and falls with
a) how equal the chances are (or better, how big the actual difference in chances is) and
b) how effective the system is in making sure that cheating is discovered and penalized.
The problem is, that a) greatly influences b): Not only do the rich have better chances to succeed, they have WAY better chances to cheat and get away with it.
Example: A rich kid can buy their way through exams, cheating, paying others for doing the work and so on, while dad makes sure, kiddy gets a nice job at the lawyer firm he sponsors or at the solicitor's, in the clinic where he knows the direction and so on; if the cheat is actually discovered, it won't change much in terms of consequences, since there is still a wealth of opportunities.
A poor kid cannot buy their way through exams. More likely, the poor kid will TAKE the money from the rich kid, helping them getting through, earning them the money necessaryto get them through - just to see the rich kid either getting their job due to family connections or having them as their bosses.
That leads to very poor tending to rather play their own game and cheat instead of taking part in a game they feel are bound to lose anyway.
Call me anti-American, but I think that other countries have better rules, granting the poor much better chances to actually succeed, where the poor are not QUITE so poor and where their chances to succeed honestly are not QUITE so small.
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mvassilev
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posted January 30, 2010 10:00 PM |
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bixie:
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the majority of the people who need to drop out of highschools mainly down to helping their family survive by going into full time employment.
While that may be true for some of them, for the majority, it's because some stupid girl got pregnant and now wants to take care of her kid, or some guy is just too much of a delinquent to care about his future.
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sharing the wealth around into stuff that is usefull, like schools, hospitals, roads, and so on.
I'm not saying all government spending is bad. Just that the majority is.
Mytical:
Yes, you did the right thing. But think about it. All American children have to go to school. These schools are in varying states of quality, but even the worst have teachers and free textbooks. If a kid wants to, he can learn out of the book, if things are too bad to learn otherwise. There's really little excuse.
JJ:
If there was cheating to any significant degree, it would become noticeable that, say, there are a lot of dumb kids in our best colleges. I go to one of the best colleges in the US - and I am yet to encounter anyone who is too stupid to be here and got in purely through money/connections.
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Elodin
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posted January 31, 2010 10:02 PM |
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The line of taxation is wherever the public is willing to tolerate it. The state will always with higher and higer taxes because that gives the state more control over the lives of the peoploe.
If the state pushes taxes too high the officials will be voted out of office in a democracy or the state risks a revolution where the voters will remove them by force.
I believe in low taxes. The lower the taxation, the greater the freedom one has over his life. The higher the taxation the less freedom one has.
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TheDeath
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posted January 31, 2010 10:04 PM |
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I believe in low taxes. The lower the taxation, the greater the freedom one has over his life. The higher the taxation the less freedom one has.
Sure, I heard people in the jungle have 0% taxes, full freedom. Great way to live too. 
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phoenixreborn
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posted February 03, 2010 05:34 AM |
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the majority of the people who need to drop out of highschools mainly down to helping their family survive by going into full time employment.
While that may be true for some of them, for the majority, it's because some stupid girl got pregnant and now wants to take care of her kid, or some guy is just too much of a delinquent to care about his future.
The majority based on what? What's your source for that statement? Or do you hate poor people because, gosh darnit, they just don't work hard enough. What makes more sense, Mytical's story or this Mvass statement with no evidence provided from a kid who accepts welfare handouts from his family speaking down from the "ivory tower".
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Binabik
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posted February 03, 2010 06:50 AM |
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I would say it's the majority based on a few decades of observation. Although I don't really agree with the specifics of what he said, I agree with the general idea.
Also, I'm not referring to what Myt was talking about, I'm referring to the people who are collecting the various benefits for the so-called poor in the US.
Source? I doubt there is much in the way of good sources of the type you probably mean. Probably the large majority legally qualify on paper. But when you look at what's really happening, I'd say the majority of them are lazy bums who are too lazy to do whatever it takes to make a living for themselves. Why should they? The government is paying them to be lazy bums, so why should they go get a job if they don't have to?
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Call me anti-American, but I think that other countries have better rules, granting the poor much better chances to actually succeed, where the poor are not QUITE so poor and where their chances to succeed honestly are not QUITE so small.
That's not anti-American, it's called Republican. (I added the but I'm quite serious. That is VERY Republican.)
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Mytical
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posted February 03, 2010 07:04 AM |
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I have to agree with Bina, and I believe Mvass on one thing. A lot of people just do not try. It is not only a 'poor' thing, but the rich kid has a much easier life while not trying.
Don't get me wrong a 'Hand up' is much better then a 'hand out'. I do think that some people have it much easier then others in life, and not because of something THEY did. It is getting worse also. The difference between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' is growing wider.
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mvassilev
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posted February 03, 2010 08:28 AM |
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PR:
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What's your source for that statement?
Personal experience.
And I don't take welfare handouts from my family. A family is supposed to take care of its children. My parents can afford to send me to college, so they're paying for me. It's not welfare because it's not money the government took at the threat of violence.
Mytical:
Yeah, the gap is growing wider, but that's because of the increasing value of education.
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Mytical
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posted February 03, 2010 09:23 AM |
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Unfortunately Education does not always translate to ability, but you are right. I've known some people with a horde of degrees on their wall that were the biggest idiots I've ever met. I've known people who never got past highschool that were absolutely brilliant. Unfortunately businesses see that little peice of paper and salivate, regardless if the person knows his/her head from a hole in the ground.
Practical experience > Book Learning ANY day. Combine the two, and yeah you have something really special.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 03, 2010 10:34 AM |
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But when you look at what's really happening, I'd say the majority of them are lazy bums who are too lazy to do whatever it takes to make a living for themselves. Why should they? The government is paying them to be lazy bums, so why should they go get a job if they don't have to?
Faulty logic: If not everyone is too lazy to work, that means there is simply not work available for ALL of them, because otherwise EVERYONE not working would be a lazy bum.
So if not enough work is there, if those you call "lazy bums" would be less lazy and work - others would lose theirs.
On the other hand, if there WAS enough work for everyone, but not everyone would work, there was a DEMAND for work. If there WAS a demand for work, salaries would go up - simple rule of supply and demand. If salaries would go up, more "lazy bums" would find it worth the while to work, since work would pay so much better than welfare.
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xerox
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posted February 03, 2010 01:18 PM |
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Norway is by far the best country here to live in. >.>
And to be honest, I am very jealous on Norway. xD
Why did we let you go from the SWEDISH EMPIRE!? ;p
Anyway. Norway is a great country to live him. Probably the best. So I hope Norway uses some of it's riches for the wellfare of those less fortunate countries and people aswell as taking the climate issues seriously.
I want to Sweden to merge with Norway. Perhaps with Denmark to. Together we could form the country of Scandinavia or create our own union.
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phoenixreborn
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posted February 03, 2010 05:34 PM |
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Personal experience.
No wonder you are constantly dissatisfied with the osm experience. Those are just empty words without a specific example or two.
This reminds me of a situation that happened to me. I was waiting with my friend outside dunkin donuts for some other people to meet up with us. My friend is a black guy in designer clothes, sitting slouched against the wall holding a full coffee cup. An older well-dressed man walking by throws some change into the hot coffee. My friend was pretty mad.
There is humor there, it is almost like an episode of "Curb your enthusiasm", but the point is the situation fit the older gentleman's preconceived notion and he acted accordingly and it was at odds with the real sitatuion.
Wait I think I got it:
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it's because some stupid girl got pregnant and now wants to take care of her kid, or some guy is just too much of a delinquent to care about his future.
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Personal experience.
Did you get some stupid girl pregnant?
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And I don't take welfare handouts from my family. A family is supposed to take care of its children. My parents can afford to send me to college, so they're paying for me. It's not welfare because it's not money the government took at the threat of violence.
Ok technically you are correct and welfare is the wrong word. You are sidestepping the larger issue which is that not everyone has the same circumstances which JJ already touched on. Some kid might not even know about college scholarships or have anyone who cares enough to explain things.
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TheDeath
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posted February 03, 2010 07:59 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:01, 03 Feb 2010.
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On the other hand, if there WAS enough work for everyone, but not everyone would work, there was a DEMAND for work.
You have to be more specific. If there's more work available than workers, the supply is up, not demand. Unless you mean the demand for workers?
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Fauch
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posted February 03, 2010 09:03 PM |
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Did you get some stupid girl pregnant?
And if her dream is to care about a child? Is she still stupid?
You talk about lazy bums, but I would rather talk about negativity. When everyone tell you you can't do it, because you are too poor, not intelligent enough, you come from the wrong social classe, etc... you end up thinking it's useless to try, so you don't even try. medias don't help either.
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