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| Thread: Power comparision: Demon farming vs. Necromancy | |
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
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posted February 16, 2010 02:24 PM |
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Power comparision: Demon farming vs. Necromancy
Hi I often look at the topics page of the heroes 3 community, and I think it really lacks some more about demon farming vs. necromancy.
I first admit that I am a n00b that only plays with friends so my experience is limited and probably different than most of you people, but please read on still.
I made some tests, to me it seems that in high numbers the power of a horned demon pretty much equals the power of 6 skeleton warriors.
Now it is so that you get about 6 skeletons pr. demon you summon, so their power are very equal in this regard.
Secondly, depending on the artifacts in the game, you won't get 100% of the skeletons, neither will you of the demons, but from the thread I have been reading it seems like there is the same limit (i.e. 1 creature gives at most 1 summon, which is in favor of the demons).
So I considered why are skeletons considered better than demons, when it would seem like demons growth faster in power than skeletons, unless you have 100% necromancy at which I'd say it is about equal?
If anything, I'd guess, due to what I have been reading here, that it is because many of the games played these days apparently only lasts for a few weeks, that is week 3-5 in average, am I correct on this? And since you can not start farming demons before week 2 day 2 where most of us I suppose gets those pit lords, whereas skeleton farming you can start on from day 1, the disadvantage of 1 week is probably so great that the opponent will have cleared a huge part of the map before you and be way ahead of you.
So I understand that for the usual maps necromancy is considered better than demon farming, but what about maps designed for a length of years? With the new xxxxL maps possible, I can imagine this getting easier, especially if you create safe zones that first are removed after an artifical set time limit, with proper setting of teleporters, gates and cursed ground you can probably make a map that allows all the fancy fireworks, that allows of you to really conquer, but on the same time, also depends of you to be tactical clever and never expand more than what you have power for.
In such a map, won't demon farming not be more powerful than necromancy? Especially getting diety of fire and letting the wandering imps grow to extreme numbers in your isolated area (for a limited time)? Of course unless the opponent gets ~100% necromancy, which I don't know how likely is, and must happen before the advantage of 1 week of pre-farming starts.
Or is this just noob talk? Is necromancy still superior to demon farming even at extremely large maps which is guaranteed to last for a long time? If so what am I missing?
THanks for reading. 
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Living time backwards
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 16, 2010 03:06 PM |
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Edited by liophy at 15:09, 16 Feb 2010.
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When you do demon farming, you have to deal with the following issues:
1. Money. To get troops to convert, you need to buy them (most of the cases).
2. Pit lords. As you said, you start week 2 at earliest. And if you want to do it with 2 heroes simultaniously, you will not have enouhg pit lords.
3. Victims. As you know, you cant demon farm from elementals,golems, gargolites and necro army. This limits your sourses. If by chance you have apropriate army, you need to bring them to the hero with pit lords. Thats movement. If you demon farm with 2 heroes, you have only 3 scouts for each. So to sum up - you waste a lot of precious movement just to bring troops.
4. Neutral guards to kill your troops. In early game its not a problem. But latter it becomes a problem.
With necromancy you have none of this issues. You may have 2-3-4 expert necromancers, that rise skeletons. You dont need money for this. You dont need troops to kill. You dont need lot of scout movement to bring it to main.
So, my personal oppinion is that in general Necromancy is better.
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I play Heroes 3 Online at: www.heroes-III.com
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted February 16, 2010 04:13 PM |
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Your arguments are very good, here are my thoughts.
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1. Money. To get troops to convert, you need to buy them (most of the cases).
I am not experienced with the newer maps, but in my experience, the problem of harnessing ressources have been more a problem of efficiency than need, i.e. it is more about how fast you can conquer the map, not if you have enough ressources for your goals anymore.
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2. Pit lords. As you said, you start week 2 at earliest. And if you want to do it with 2 heroes simultaniously, you will not have enouhg pit lords.
I didn't think of that, it's true that the necromancers in practice can move much faster through the map, unless the map is completely familiar, and unless the map is specific designed, the advantage for the necromancer may be high for several weeks.
However for specific designed maps, that is at least maps that goes for a long time, where you won't be able to conquer certain parts, I think with time demon farmers will grow powerfull much faster unless the necromancers gets the artifacts needed.
Because it does not matter if you have 2 heroes, A and B against monster C and D or one hero, A, against monsters C and D, it will give the same amount of skeletons, the difference is the speed of how fast you can do it.
So I still think, if the map is designed for being played long enough necromancy might not be more powerful.
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3. Victims. As you know, you cant demon farm from elementals,golems, gargolites and necro army. This limits your sourses. If by chance you have apropriate army, you need to bring them to the hero with pit lords. Thats movement. If you demon farm with 2 heroes, you have only 3 scouts for each. So to sum up - you waste a lot of precious movement just to bring troops.
Again you are completely correct, for the first part, about the elementals, I think a good map designer would not put these type of monsters in an area where it is expected for inferno to play, but I can't say that for sure of course.
For the movement part, that goes to my previous thoughts about if the map is sufficient closed, yet XXXXL that speed becomes less and less important. But you are right, the necromancer have an advantage far exciting the value of a single week, I believe.
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4. Neutral guards to kill your troops. In early game its not a problem. But latter it becomes a problem.
I usually meteor my own tropes.
Also cloning pit lords have worked well good for me.
Of course monsters dissapear, but as there comes new wandering creatures each week you always have the battle you need, I believe.
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You may have 2-3-4 expert necromancers, that rise skeletons.
What I'd like to notice is that it does not produce more creatures in total, but it gives you the same amount of creatures faster, which is an excellent point.
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donald
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 16, 2010 05:44 PM |
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I just read about demon farming... quite tricky I think !!
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 16, 2010 06:30 PM |
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Because it does not matter if you have 2 heroes, A and B against monster C and D or one hero, A, against monsters C and D, it will give the same amount of skeletons, the difference is the speed of how fast you can do it.
But exactly THAT point (speed) is the main issue in Heroes 3.
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So I still think, if the map is designed for being played long enough necromancy might not be more powerful.
Long enough means? 6 months? 8 months?
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For the movement part, that goes to my previous thoughts about if the map is sufficient closed, yet XXXXL that speed becomes less and less important.
How many maps of that kind you know? In opposit to ALL other maps?
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I usually meteor my own tropes.
Also cloning pit lords have worked well good for me.
At what time you have meteor shower in your spell book? And clone?
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Of course monsters dissapear, but as there comes new wandering creatures each week you always have the battle you need, I believe.
There do not come new wandering monsters each week, except on start of a new month beginning with month 2. Stacks of wandering monsters grow by 10% each week though. But this is more of an advantage for skeletons than for demons, because of the "35 hp rule". You get more skeletons in a new week easier than demons, because 5 new hitpoints are sufficent for a new risen skeleton, while you need at least 35 hp for ONE new demon. Many hitpoints of fallen opponents are wasted because of that.
Not to mention your lords can only raise one time each battle (clones not included). So if you face a strong wandering stack which splits his troops in 7 stacks, you will never be as efficent as a necromancer will be
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What I'd like to notice is that it does not produce more creatures in total, but it gives you the same amount of creatures faster, which is an excellent point.
But the faster you have thousands of skeletons, the faster you break through ANY guard. So no matter how you design the map, the necromancer will break through all the guards much faster than a demon raiser.
Maybe at a specific point of the game, the demon guy will be similar strong as the necro guy, but the necro guy can't lose his lead because the demon will never be FASTER to catch up the advantage of the necro guy.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted February 17, 2010 07:26 AM |
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Hi Angelito, thanks for your reply on the matter.
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Long enough means? 6 months? 8 months?
My original guess was around 1 year, so 12 months I suppose, to make it interesting, but I don't know if it really require that long. After all it does depend quite a lot on the artifacts you may get.
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How many maps of that kind you know? In opposit to ALL other maps?
None, but I don't think that is a relevant matter in this case, I completely agree upon that necromancy is superior to the current maps played, heck even on the good to go in game maps, necromancy is superior unless you really screw up, but then it is not fault of the skill, but fault of the skill of the player.
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At what time you have meteor shower in your spell book? And clone?
That depends highly on the map, when I play with friends I'd guess around week 2-6, but most often around week 4 or 5.
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There do not come new wandering monsters each week, except on start of a new month beginning with month 2. Stacks of wandering monsters grow by 10% each week though.
Thanks for correcting me.
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But this is more of an advantage for skeletons than for demons, because of the "35 hp rule".
Would that not depend on the amount of creatures present at each week, and the probability of a given creature?
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You get more skeletons in a new week easier than demons, because 5 new hitpoints are sufficent for a new risen skeleton, while you need at least 35 hp for ONE new demon. Many hitpoints of fallen opponents are wasted because of that.
But don't you via democracy get the opponent party on your site, then you combine for maximum efficiency, thereby making the 35 vs. 5 hit point irrelevant in all matters except if the opponent have more than 35 hit point at which maximum 1 demon / skeleton can be summoned?
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Not to mention your lords can only raise one time each battle (clones not included). So if you face a strong wandering stack which splits his troops in 7 stacks, you will never be as efficent as a necromancer will be
I usually do it like this, collect monsters via democracy, then when I want to convert I attack something with not many, maybe a few with high hit points, or something I can't summon as demons anyway, then, if possible I blind them, and meteor shower my careful collected stacks for maximum raising power.
That gives almost 100% of hit points of monsters turned into demons for all types with less or equal to 35 hit points.
Where as skeletons are limited on 30%, unless artifacts are present, and that's why I think the following is wrong:
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Maybe at a specific point of the game, the demon guy will be similar strong as the necro guy, but the necro guy can't lose his lead because the demon will never be FASTER to catch up the advantage of the necro guy.
I think, unless the necromancer gets artifacts for 100% skeleton raising before the demon herder gets up on the same power level (still assuming 1 demon vs. 6 skeleton is the equal power measure, please correct me if I am wrong), then the demon herder will increase in power faster than the necromancer.
However as you write:
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But the faster you have thousands of skeletons, the faster you break through ANY guard. So no matter how you design the map, the necromancer will break through all the guards much faster than a demon raiser.
You're completely correct that what really matters in games are speed, and when you can break through first, that one week (or actually more) advantage is much greater if you get it week 1, than week 3, which means unless the map is carefully designed, equal skilled players would most likely find the requirement of map size to be quite extreme before the demon herder will have more power in demons than the opponent in skeletons, not changing the fact that the necromancer will have a much larger area investigated, probably given an even greater advantage, at least what scout wars are considered, which the demon herder thereby probably will loose more demons than the necromancer will loose skeletons, though that is just guessing right now.
But when I write carefully decided, I mean timered boarders, that way you're limited to a certain area for a certain time, the important part then being able to create this area satisfyingly, so the given player will see the boarder guard as a natural part and not an unnecessary part, which is what really requires the genious part I suppose.
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Living time backwards
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 17, 2010 10:15 AM |
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collect monsters via democracy
 ROFL, ROFL
Sorry, but cound help
You must take into consideration though, that usually internet games are played without "democracy"
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I play Heroes 3 Online at: www.heroes-III.com
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted February 17, 2010 11:08 AM |
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I didn't know that. How do you heard demons then?
Also, just to complete the argument about democracy, democracy is more of an advantage for the demon herder than for the necromancer, because 1 monsters turns into 1 monster in the skeleton transformer, and due to the low health of skeletons that means only very few cases of monsters where you get more power pr. creature than with demons.
Though peasents do come to mind of course.
Edit: Oh it is of course diplomacy, not democracy 
Anyway, I have got the no more than 20 posts outside VW in 24 hours message again, so I'll probably not be able to be very active the rest of the day, I can answer stuff tomorrow.
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Living time backwards
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 17, 2010 11:31 AM |
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Edited by liophy at 11:32, 17 Feb 2010.
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democracy
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How do you heard demons then?
Well, that was my point3. You have limited resourses for troops - only low level units from your villages, some pandoras, external dwellings. Still, its not countless.
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I play Heroes 3 Online at: www.heroes-III.com
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 17, 2010 12:54 PM |
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If you bring diplomacy into consideration for the demon guy, I bring cloak of the undead king into consideration for the necro guy.
So when you have 1000 demons, I will have 2000 powerlichs 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted February 17, 2010 01:07 PM |
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Well, i think the power of diplomacy could level-up even the cloak of undead king.
Because its not only the demons. Its the level 7 units. On such closed maps you can bring throngs of level 7 units.
I suppose 100 archangels, 100 ancient behemots and 100 gold dragons should be enough to counter 2-3000 liches.
And offcourse, you dont asemble the cloak every game, but almost every game you can have expert diplomacy.
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted February 17, 2010 02:19 PM |
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Great I can type again.
Okay, first about the Cloak, I wrote in my first post it was under the assumption the necro would not get 100% necromancy (or a similar number), due to artifacts too early, which I hoped had indicated I meant stuff like the cloak. I know the cloak is relatively easy to assemble, I love doing that myself and it is a sure win against the computer even when you play very bad, but I don't think it is anything you can count on, like you can on diplomacy.
I did some tests, I have always liked to compare creature strenght pr. investment, eventhough there's a maximum limit (which I made a rant about in a different thread but that is off topic), now I compared creature strength pr. hit point.
I would expect in this scenario the higher level creatures to be better, but it is far from always the case.
The ratio of skeleton warriors (I use the unupgraded hit point to get the numbers and then assume people upgrade before battle) vs. horned demons are 1:6, which is actually a very close battle, at least when I tested it. Which does surprise me, likewise it did surprise me that 500 skeleton warriors (skeletons with 6 hit points) vs. 200 zombies (walking deads with 12 hit points, that gives a 1:2.5 ratio) were superior, simply the skeletons were clearly better in the 1vs1 match I did.
Of course that doesn't say that much, the 200 zombies have more hit points total, which means that they're better if you just want meat shields, but otherwise I'd say basic necromancy + cloak may not be an advantage.
I didn't test for wraiths (which is advanced necromancy correct?)
But I did test for liches, and one of the greatest things about power liches are, if you have tried to test their strength in 100vs100 battles where you split them up and use a couple as meat shields, etc. is that they're among the best, if not the best level 5 unit, they are really powerhouses, and their low health means you'll get them in an extreme number, actually the ratio is 1:5 liches vs. skeletons (that is I am assuming the same rules applies for both) (30 health vs. 6 health gives 1:5).
Which means, if you can get them protected from the opponents high level units, which he/she has due to diplomacy, they may very well win. (I haven't done any kind of advanced tests though, I am not really experienced enough to know what is the most optimal thing to do in a more complex battle).
In the battle of 100 power liches vs. 500 skeleton warriors the power liches won even if I went melee, and the skeletons attacked first.
So no doubt, if you get the cloak, demon farming won't help much, because with the cloak, I don't think 100% necromancy is unrealistic, so it is about the same amount of units (the necromancer gets more units, due to 30 health vs. 35 health), but each power lich, a high end level 5 unit, is far superior to a horned demon, one of the weakest level 4 units.
I did my tests with 0/0/1/1 in primary skills, no secondary skills, no arties, etc.
Also just for the fun of it, I tested 500 skeleton warriors vs. 3 azure dragons (3*1000=6*500), at which the azure dragons won easily, with no loss, even if the skeleton warriors hit first.
Thanks for your input both of you!
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Living time backwards
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Napman
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 12, 2010 11:57 PM |
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Even if Demon farming is better, Necro seems so much easier. In addition, the supporting cast for Necro seems a little better than what inferno has to work with.
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c0ldshadow
Known Hero
ig chr0meice91
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posted May 13, 2010 07:00 AM |
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i think necro is better overall, but demon summoning is more fun lol. nothing more satisfying than meteor showering joiners and turning them into demons. i love doing that to orc chieftan, they convert well.
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