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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted February 17, 2010 06:25 PM |
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the argument
I read an interesting article in the university paper today, from a politics proffessor, on the subject of debating. tell me what you think.
"I have been in many debates where I have had to play devils advocate on alot of issues that I personally feel are wrong. I've had to say that capital punishment should be allowed back into the british judicial system, I have had to argue that certain political parties should be banned, I have had to argue that fox hunting is an a decent sport, I have had to argue to release Ian huntly. But I've found that a few groups of poeple who feel like they are in the moral right have a tendency to simply bash and ridicule, rather than listen to the debate. my advice to everyone who is forming an argument on any issue is this.
the argument is you.
How you come across and how you present you're points is just as valuable, if not more valuable, to you're debate, than the points you put down yourself. If you appear patronizing, people will only remember that part, if you appear rage-fueled, people will only remember that, if you appear arrogant, then people will only remember that. if you are snowy, mocking, smarmy or domineering, and people will only remember that, and that is the greatest failing of a debater, when people forget what you are fighting for.
be impassioned, no question about passion is good for an argument. Be smart, know you're points, but remember there is another view in the room, that people are not going to agree with you, and the way you present you're points matters just as much as the points themselves. you are a salesman for an agrument, and no-one likes a arrogant, hate-filled, snowy salesman trying to sell them something."
I bring this up because my conduct as "a salesman for an argument" on this board has been substandard, and I have been bringing up personal feelings and mixing them into the argument. I would like to apologise to all invovled.
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted February 17, 2010 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
I would like to apologise to all invovled.
No hard feelings from me, though I also think we never really debated anything to be honest. 
About the text you quote, the person seems to confuse "your", with "you're", which means Azagal( ) wrote it.
Also I don't think being passionate helps making a point, but I could be wrong, I just don't see what it would help to make people realise my argument, or me theirs, that I started bringing emotions (passion) into it.
I have some texts I used to read about debating, maybe, if I find them sometime, I could post them here, though in reality, I don't think really there is that much to it, the greatest problem in my experience is the problem of misunderstanding eachother, due to non-defined terms.
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Living time backwards
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted February 17, 2010 06:38 PM |
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Quote:
I have some texts I used to read about debating, maybe, if I find them sometime, I could post them here, though in reality, I don't think really there is that much to it, the greatest problem in my experience is the problem of misunderstanding eachother, due to non-defined terms.
Sometimes i have difficulty following what you say. Use less commas and verbosity, you don't have to be extremely specific.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 06:44 PM |
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That reminds me, I often tend to overdo stuff, what I really would like to learn is to be able to make my point, and arguments behind it short and precise, but often I end up with a wall of text.
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TheDeath
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posted February 17, 2010 06:45 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 18:46, 17 Feb 2010.
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Yes I used to be like that long time ago too. Here's an example of what I mean (previous quote):
I have some texts I used to read about debating. Maybe if I find them sometime, I could post them here. Though I don't think really there is that much to it, the greatest problem is misunderstanding each other due to non-defined terms, in my experience.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted February 17, 2010 06:47 PM |
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Quote:
I have some texts I used to read about debating. Maybe, if I find them sometime, I could post them here. Though, in reality, I don't think there really is that much to it. The greatest problem in my experience is the problem of misunderstanding eachother, due to non-defined terms.
fix'd
EDIT: damn you, TD!
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 08:39 PM |
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So the real problem lies in the grammer?
To me the corrections does seem better.
I'll try to use "." more often and not use phrases(?).
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TheDeath
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posted February 17, 2010 08:41 PM |
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It's not a "correction" because you didn't make mistakes, but it's simply much easier to read 
You can leave out obvious stuff and small details...
Now, I used to have a "parantheses obsession", using them to present such details all the time... and yeah, it was quite unreadable
When you see parantheses or commas in-between points made (for details) you lose track of the main point when reading.
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DagothGares
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posted February 17, 2010 08:45 PM |
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Use more full stops.
TD, he did make mistakes. He started another sentence after a comma, for instance.
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ohforfsake
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posted February 17, 2010 08:46 PM |
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That sounds reasonable, I'll try to use it in the future.
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Corribus
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posted February 17, 2010 09:48 PM |
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Quote:
How you come across and how you present you're [sic] points is just as valuable, if not more valuable, to you're [sic] debate, than the points you put down yourself.
Very much agreed.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Fauch
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posted February 18, 2010 01:41 AM |
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Quote:
Also I don't think being passionate helps making a point, but I could be wrong, I just don't see what it would help to make people realise my argument, or me theirs, that I started bringing emotions (passion) into it.
I think that being "passionate" means being very interested and involved in a subject.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 18, 2010 08:04 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
How you come across and how you present you're [sic] points is just as valuable, if not more valuable, to you're [sic] debate, than the points you put down yourself.
Very much agreed.
I also agree, but that's a matter of course. It's called PRESENTATION of a point, and how important THAT one is you see in courts, for example, in advertising, and generally when you try to get something across.
However, the impression is a bit misleading - a debate is a situation in which there is per definition no right or wrong per se. There are point in favor and against and what someone thinks is a pretty subjective thing.
So personal behaviour and the whole "presentation" in the end has NOT the purpose to better communicate the actual points made. The only purpose of a debate is - like in court - to WIN, that is, to get more people to accept the views you present than the other side does with theirs.
The simple relation is, that the better your points, the calmer and cooler you can present them.
Conversely, if your points are seemingly weaker, you have to field other weapons.
It would be wrong, however, to assume that calm and cool does it - there is being too calm and too cool which may lead to the impression that you are cold as a fish and have no real interest in your issue.
All in all the issue is a lot more complex. For example, in a real live debate you won't profit from a logical error of the opponent, if it's too difficult to prove that error, that is, if the chain of ifs and whens and causes and so on gets too long and convoluted people are likely to lose you which is bad for your cause.
A rule of thumb is that you have to get people to nod their heads involuintarily. Of course it depends on the audience, but still: a debate is supposed to be interesting, not a bore.
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Fauch
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posted February 18, 2010 06:11 PM |
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no, you aren't supposed to beat the other people, but to get as much ideas expressed as possible, so you have the most possible elements to take a decision which will be beneficial to everyone, and hopefully better than all the individual ideas.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 18, 2010 07:21 PM |
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Quote:
no, you aren't supposed to beat the other people, but to get as much ideas expressed as possible, so you have the most possible elements to take a decision which will be beneficial to everyone, and hopefully better than all the individual ideas.
That would be true only if you'd debate before an audience of emotionsless, highly intelligent philantropic robots without any self-interest.
But before I start arguing with you - uselessly -, I'll simply ask you
a) what gives you the idea you just expressed?
b) why do you think your idea is right and mine (and others') are wrong?
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ohforfsake
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posted February 18, 2010 07:28 PM |
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Are you debating the purpose of debating?
I think that debating is sharing justified information. At least for serious debate.
"The battle" which is refered to, is what I think happens when information is not justified enough to be accepted.
What non serious debate is considered, it is whatever you want it to be, really.
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Corribus
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posted February 18, 2010 07:55 PM |
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As I've said before, I don't participate in online discussions with the purpose of "beating" people (whatever that means) or even convincing people that I'm right and they are wrong. What the hell do I care if someone else is enlightened or not?
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted February 18, 2010 08:02 PM |
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I don't think so.
Debates have nothing or not so much to do with sharing of information, but with evaluation of information and the consequemces to be drawn. You seem to work with the assumption that something like an objectively "best compromise" or "best course" is possible to find, but that assumption is not only wrong as such (many things will show only when done), it assumes as well that all debaters debate with the same SUBJECTIVE purpose - find the best solution for all or "the truth" or something.
That's not true, though.
A debate is a battle for agreement, and it's fought to win.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 18, 2010 08:09 PM |
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Quote:
As I've said before, I don't participate in online discussions with the purpose of "beating" people (whatever that means) or even convincing people that I'm right and they are wrong. What the hell do I care if someone else is enlightened or not?
A discussion is no debate.
An (online) discussion is - or should be - a friendly exchange of opinions, more or less supported by points, something like an exchange of ideas. Usually there is no purpose, except having fun, learning other opinions and so on.
A debate is something different. It's more like a COMPETITION of ideas or opinions with a specific aim: to find out what is "better suited" (for whatever purpose).
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 18, 2010 08:10 PM |
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Well, I don't come here to debate, using here your definition, although I think the distinction between discussion and debate is not so stark as you make it out to be.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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