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| Thread: the HC's necessary religion thread |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Keksimaton
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posted April 15, 2010 04:59 PM |
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It would seem to me that the rules upon this thread as imposed by bixie are more of a contrivance to the discussion and have a scent of "only give opinions that I deem of worth." I'd much rather just take the silly rules away and instead say somethng along the lines of: "Let's have it a better discussion than the last time we tried."
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1) how do you let Religion affect your day to day life. friends, work, family, etc, etc.
It doesn't show that much on the outside, but I have been thinking alot about religion lately. Mostly it's me trying to figure out what to believe in and understanding the beliefs of other people. At this point of my life I propably have much better things to think about than religion but it hasn't brougth all that much harm on my way.
Propably the most religious activity I have had was back in elementary school when I played with my friends that we were a tribe of primitive people. There was a small puddle that always kept forming up on a remote cliff of the schoolyard when the snow melted or when it rained. The longevity of the puddle was enough for it to have gathered quite a bit of mud on the bottom from wich a few plants and moss reared their heads. This puddle became the object of worship for our tribe and I became the shaman/cleric of the puddle. I cursed various rocks and trees and gave blessings of the pond to the warriors and chieftain of the tribe. There were several taboos about going too close to the pond and disturbing the waters. I find it quite amazing how hierarchical the tribe was and how quicly we found ourselves a religion. The downfall of the tribe came soon after an internal power struggle and some kid who wasn't in the game, came along and peed in the puddle.
Now when I look back at it, I find amusement in how it reminds me of a certain few historical historical events.
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Jiriki9
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posted April 15, 2010 06:56 PM |
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that's a fair point. I can see how someone could argue that Atheism is a religion. but to be brutally honest, it does seem a little... circular.
Circular?
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I'm very sorry to hear about the fact you're not is a good debting mood. how much, by the way?
I meant debating, of course. Mean typo this time^^
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I also don't claim absolute truth, as the concepts I worship are reflections of human nature. We can't know everything yet, just like we can't perfect the art of love, or completely and utterly control our rage. I worship aspects of humanity, so I don't claim absolute truth. If there were absolute truth, then we wouldn't progress as a society, and as is often said "the journey is sometimes much better than the objective.
I approve...yet, what aspects do you worship, if that's not too personal 
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1) religion doesn't need dogman, ceremonies etc. Atheism is a rejection of religion and... I think if I sum it up in this quote.
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Atheism is simply saying "I don't see the reasons for the existence of god" and thus it is no more a religion than, say, custard.
-Aronra, online atheist counciller, PHD in palentology from Texas University, and badass.
if you want a less negative comparison, then Atheism is not a religion in the same way a ant is not a mammal, or desk lamp is not a fruit, though this is slightly slipping into the realm of the surreal.
I get your point Yet there are other forms of atheism, as far as I know! "I don't see the reason for the existence of god" could also be said by an agnostic, easily. "strong" atheists say: "There is no god!" and that is maybe much closer to religion (and unscientific, imho, since it claims truth for an unprovable thing).
Also, I personally have developed a kind of dislike for too much reasoning, or as a German band put it: "Too much reason must never win!" (reason=rationality here) I mean, reason for itself, imo, knows no true moral, it's only survival of the fittest and following rules you can't avoid, I fear. That's my humble opinion, however, based on my few of things, the world and mankind.^^
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Now I just want to point out that I am not accusing christianity as a religion of anything. I am accusing the people in the organisation behind it. It is not an arguement against christianity, and I am sorry that I got a little carried away. This is how I see it, and I now that most people have a mor positive view on it, and I don't know what would have happened without an organized religion. It is not to be taken personally.
Shares, I see your point, but I fear that's more human nature and I'm not sure whether things would have developed without organized religion, or with another one. The only good reason I see is that under the mask of religions, people can easier be controlled - maybe.
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And, Shares, you should thank God ( ) it's not Islam that's "ours". Seriously.
...first: consider the age of Islam: it's about a thousand years younger than Christianity, as far as I know, and a thousand years ago, well, let's think what did the Cathlic Church do? Ah, some time later they began the crusades. VERY great...do you think they would not have used bombs, weapons of mass destruction and everysthing then?
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It doesn't show that much on the outside, but I have been thinking alot about religion lately. Mostly it's me trying to figure out what to believe in and understanding the beliefs of other people. At this point of my life I propably have much better things to think about than religion but it hasn't brougth all that much harm on my way.
Like what? I mean, personal things or public ones (like war, pollution, etc.)?
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Doomforge
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posted April 15, 2010 08:06 PM |
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...first: consider the age of Islam: it's about a thousand years younger than Christianity, as far as I know, and a thousand years ago, well, let's think what did the Cathlic Church do? Ah, some time later they began the crusades. VERY great...do you think they would not have used bombs, weapons of mass destruction and everysthing then?
What kind of logic is that? If a new religion is found, will it be allowed to be fundamental or even xenophobic like Islam is nowadays in the year 3010?
Times change.
Besides, a thousand years ago, catholic church did nothing.
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bixie
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posted April 15, 2010 08:23 PM |
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that's a fair point. I can see how someone could argue that Atheism is a religion. but to be brutally honest, it does seem a little... circular.
Circular?
Well, nonsensical, if you look at atheism by definition of a non belief in any god, then, really, it's hard to make a religion out of it.
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I also don't claim absolute truth, as the concepts I worship are reflections of human nature. We can't know everything yet, just like we can't perfect the art of love, or completely and utterly control our rage. I worship aspects of humanity, so I don't claim absolute truth. If there were absolute truth, then we wouldn't progress as a society, and as is often said "the journey is sometimes much better than the objective.
I approve...yet, what aspects do you worship, if that's not too personal
Love, knowledge, honour, bravery, compassion, hope. the form of worship is to spread it, gather it, emulate it or keep it as much as possible, depending on which one.
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1) religion doesn't need dogman, ceremonies etc. Atheism is a rejection of religion and... I think if I sum it up in this quote.
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Atheism is simply saying "I don't see the reasons for the existence of god" and thus it is no more a religion than, say, custard.
-Aronra, online atheist counciller, PHD in palentology from Texas University, and badass.
if you want a less negative comparison, then Atheism is not a religion in the same way a ant is not a mammal, or desk lamp is not a fruit, though this is slightly slipping into the realm of the surreal.
I get your point Yet there are other forms of atheism, as far as I know! "I don't see the reason for the existence of god" could also be said by an agnostic, easily. "strong" atheists say: "There is no god!" and that is maybe much closer to religion (and unscientific, imho, since it claims truth for an unprovable thing).
true, though I haven't met many "Strong atheists" around.
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Also, I personally have developed a kind of dislike for too much reasoning, or as a German band put it: "Too much reason must never win!" (reason=rationality here) I mean, reason for itself, imo, knows no true moral, it's only survival of the fittest and following rules you can't avoid, I fear. That's my humble opinion, however, based on my few of things, the world and mankind.^^
thats fair enough, and I can understand that point of view. too much reason can explain away murder, and I'm not advocating that. at the moment, I think we have a nice balance...
though saying that, a trolls going to come here and say "Y'all wrong! Jezus is the Lord, Y'all gonna hell!" and upset the balance.
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And, Shares, you should thank God () it's not Islam that's "ours". Seriously.
...first: consider the age of Islam: it's about a thousand years younger than Christianity, as far as I know, and a thousand years ago, well, let's think what did the Cathlic Church do? Ah, some time later they began the crusades. VERY great...do you think they would not have used bombs, weapons of mass destruction and everysthing then?
a few corrections (sorry, I'm a history student, I notice this)
1) Islam was founded in the 500s.
2) catholic church was officially formed in 300s (200 year headstart)
3) they did used bombs in the crusades to destroy each others fortresses. rare occurance and towards the end, but they did.
the crusades were actually an interesting time. before then, Islam had been one of the more economically, socially and politically enlightened empires at the time. they had kept most of the knowledge from the greeks, mapped the heavens, practically reinvented maths as we now know it, had a proper procedure for divorce that secured the wife with enough to live on, and revolutionised medicine. they entered the war cultured and liberal in their teachings, in an organised and disciplined army, whilst the Christians entered a disorganised, savage mess, incredibly intolerant and fericely dogmatic. Several jewish towns in turkey were simply wiped of the map because the crusaders got a little to sword happy. There was the peasant crusade (who were mainly just thrown away as fodder, fairly callously), and even the childrens crusade (an entire army of children who, in religious fervour, marched to the holy land, didn't plan it out, and died when they got to constantinople. 300 dead at the walls, not including those who died on the way.)
This might be because the pope promised that God will forgive them of their sins if they crusade in the holy land. this lead to some pretty horendous behaviour on the part of the crusaders, including having a city burnt, it's men killed, it's women and children raped and then killed, all the treasures stolen and sent back to rome. the standard of the city was said to be dipped in the blood of those killed and held aloft above the cities remnents. When Saladin got there, he wept, supposedly. Most of this is recorded in the archives in the university of Istanbul, which I was very privileged to have a look inside when I went there.
the interesting part is, by the end, the roles had reversed. the crusaders had left cultured and intelligent, bringing back all the old greek thinking, as well as the new innovations that the Muslims had brought up along the way. the Muslims, by contrast, had gone under new management, a more fundementalist dogma, that had basically removed the empire intelligentia, and turned back the clock to a much stricter time. this was the introduction of the Jilbab, and the idea of Jidahism, that we all associate islamic extremist today.
I just hope that little bit of information was helpful.
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DagothGares
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posted April 15, 2010 08:40 PM |
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the interesting part is, by the end, the roles had reversed. the crusaders had left cultured and intelligent, bringing back all the old greek thinking, as well as the new innovations that the Muslims had brought up along the way. the Muslims, by contrast, had gone under new management, a more fundementalist dogma, that had basically removed the empire intelligentia, and turned back the clock to a much stricter time. this was the introduction of the Jilbab, and the idea of Jidahism, that we all associate islamic extremist today.
While intertwined with the crusades, I think the enlightenment of western Europe has more to do with the fall of Constantinopel, through which the greek scholars fled away from the Turkish empire and that the lowering of the arab civilisations has more to do with the mongol invasion. Western Europe would almost have suffered the same fate if the hordes didn't return to Mongolia to retreive a new khan. I know you didn't say why the reverse happened, but it's almost as if you implied the crusades had something to do with the fall of byzantium and the mongol invasion.
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bixie
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posted April 15, 2010 09:21 PM |
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fair enough, I have to say that the crusades had alot to do with the militantisation of Islam, though the mongol invasion probably had more.
It's just an interesting point.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 15, 2010 09:29 PM |
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Shares, I see your point, but I fear that's more human nature and I'm not sure whether things would have developed without organized religion, or with another one. The only good reason I see is that under the mask of religions, people can easier be controlled - maybe.
I thought I kinda mentioned that I didn't know what would have happened without it, but that I think it was for the worse?
About human nature, that is the western cultures human nature. Ever looked at tibet? Or india? Yes, they've had wars, death and stuff, but not close to our ammounts. Tibetian monks are known to be run over by tanks, rather than fighting back. So I really don't believe that you can just point at human nature. Culture makes such a huge difference!
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted April 15, 2010 10:20 PM |
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I thought I kinda mentioned that I didn't know what would have happened without it, but that I think it was for the worse?
About human nature, that is the western cultures human nature. Ever looked at tibet? Or india? Yes, they've had wars, death and stuff, but not close to our ammounts. Tibetian monks are known to be run over by tanks, rather than fighting back. So I really don't believe that you can just point at human nature. Culture makes such a huge difference!
When It comes to India, I have to stop you there.
according to my friend, Abs, there have been several bloody and brutal wars in indian during medieval times. one battle involved one sides general's head being cut off, hollowed out, and centipedes put in it and sent to the leader of the opposing faction.
the nature of human history has been just as bloody world round, we are not the only ones to do this sort of thing. depends on what flavour of atrocity you'd like to sample. western culture does thing on a much grander scale, whilst eastern tends to be a little more intericate in their particular way of going around it.
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Doomforge
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posted April 16, 2010 10:19 AM |
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I never understood what is the "control" part you guys keep mentioning.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 16, 2010 01:36 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 13:36, 16 Apr 2010.
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@Bixie: But that was after the aryan invasion, wasn't it? India is a a bad example since it has a very peaceful country but have been invaded many times(the aryans, the chinese, the british).
(Apparently aryan is spelled with a y, even though it comes from aria)
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted April 16, 2010 02:18 PM |
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@Bixie: But that was after the aryan invasion, wasn't it? India is a a bad example since it has a very peaceful country but have been invaded many times(the aryans, the chinese, the british).
as I say, not really. If it was peaceful, then they had a pretty good way of covering up the wars.
also, you forget that India was invaded by the muslims at one point, thats were we get Pakistan.
and if not wars, rebellions, India has had a long history of rebellions inside it's boarders. numerous kings and princes showed their might by putting down the lower classes with extreme savagery.
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Shares
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I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 16, 2010 02:20 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 14:23, 16 Apr 2010.
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As I said, it was a bad example.
To not draw the attention to my examples instead of my point, I will say it again:
My point is that I don't think that murdering and stealing is not part of human nature. I think it is part of our culture and history, due to the fact that wrong people have been given power too many times. That culture makes such a huge different and the fact that there have been peaceful civilisations proves that(to me).
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Doomforge
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posted April 16, 2010 03:05 PM |
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there have been peaceful civilisations proves that(to me).
examples? 
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DagothGares
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posted April 17, 2010 06:19 PM |
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God is a metaphor for all that which transcends intellectual thought. It's as simple as that.
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bixie
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posted April 18, 2010 11:41 AM |
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Edited by bixie at 14:33, 18 Apr 2010.
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Has anyone heard of the Game station immortal soul clause.
basically, if you make any online purchase from the Game station website, they legal have access and can make a claim on, your soul.
I think that it's hilarious.
also, Dagoth, if that is the case, then I think my theory over the development of the religous psyche is pretty much right.
1) we are reliant on deities to explain everything, we are dependent on them. we are like children at the ages between 0-9, always looking up to our parents for answers.
2) we begin to find out more information, begin to experiment, and start to find the answers for ourselves. children between 10-14 in about this mind set.
3) we reject deities easy to swallow answers, as well as their supposed dogma, and begin to forge our own identity. 15-25.
4) we understand our deities, and begin to see them as almost equals.
5) we become deities for another race.
if god is used to explain things beyond intelligent thought, then it's only a matter of time until we understand everything in the universe. we already have theories concerning the creation of it, and whilst there is still alot we don't know (what happens after we die? is there intelligent life on other planets? why isn't miley cyrus and her annoying dad minced in a bucket off the M4 corridor?) in only a matter of 50 years, we have come on in leaps and bounds.
I've also heard theories from some people that the biblical god was inspired by a volcanic eruption, (Pillars of smoke, Pillars of fire, thunder, lightning, and you can't deny that the parting of the red sea, and it coming crashing back down on the egyptian soldiers is rather like a tsunami). and whilst I had a hard time seeing it before, looking back with the benefit of seeing footage of the Icelandic volcanic eruptions, and seeing the very same (complete with lightning) it does seem just a little similar. But I digress, I doubt that anybody is going to take that seriously.
if you mean, alternative Dagoth, that religions are formed to make people feel better after a tragedy, then I can see that as well. and for those who can't, picture this.
you are part of a tribe. one day, a illness comes and takes a child away. the mother is crying over why it happened. surely, the compassionate thing is to try and comfort her, saying that the child is in a good place, where he's happy, rather than saying "He's dead, Sh*t happens, get over it".
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DagothGares
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posted April 18, 2010 02:11 PM |
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I don't know. I don't think the simplistic version of God and Satan will be happy with that.
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ohforfsake
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posted April 18, 2010 02:29 PM |
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I kind of have an idea of if some parts of a contract is invalid/illegal, the entire contract becomes illegal.
Basicly mean, if you add some part of contract which you cannot claim in a contract, no matter if it's signed or not, then all other parts becomes irrelevant as well because the whole contract will be seen as non valid.
So those who checked the soul part, which no one can make claim on (like you can't make claim that someone should be your slave, no matter if they signed it. ), basicly might not need to apply to said EULA at all and can freely do stuff against it, because the company have given permission to the game (or whatever it is) in dispite lack of a valid contract.
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bixie
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posted April 18, 2010 02:35 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 14:35, 18 Apr 2010.
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actually, Game station have already made claims on this, but it was only done on april the first. 8 peoples souls now belong, according to the contract, to Game station. And so far, no-one has contested it.
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DagothGares
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posted April 18, 2010 02:47 PM |
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God is a metaphor for all that which transcends intellectual thought. It's as simple as that.
I don't think this necessarily is an atheistic statement. How about you guys?
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Keksimaton
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Talk to the hand
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posted April 18, 2010 03:55 PM |
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The statement aknowledges an existent meaning for the word "god," but would seem dismissing of deities and omniscient supermen. By that defintion, wouldn't art be a subsection within god?
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