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| Thread: Some vague thoughts |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 24, 2010 01:54 AM |
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Some vague thoughts
Some vague thoughts swirled inside of my mind, the mind formulated brainstorming stormclouds, creation was born from thundering chaos! Or you might say I was in a writing mood and felt like recording some random thoughts, the following is not supposed to be discussed on absolute terms as it is by nature a vague subject. As such I'll have to request that you refrain from citing specific examples which discredit the idea - of course there are various cases that confirm or deny it, it's by no means something all-encompassing. Also certain ideas or values stated are not necessarily my own but how I see things as an observer. With those out of the way..
It is ironic how much man tries to escape freedom. No not the freedom of speech, political freedom or anything like that - there are many levels of freedom. Like everyone around us we cling to many things, simple or grand. Tangible or insubstantial. And each time we sacrifice part of our freedom in exchange, our independence weakens or we end up conflicted.
Take beliefs for instance, for all they offer they are actually a prison for the mind. Following an ideology often means you are barred from others, your actions are inhibited - or guided if you prefer, your thoughts are restricted within certain, sometimes imperceptible limits, your whole mindset becomes enslaved to that very idea you chose to serve and believe in and you see the world through its shades.
Likewise happens with trends, for their duration you commit yourself to a certain lifestyle, dress and act like it suggests. Which can in turn offer popularity or cut you off from the rest of the world. Naturally they come at the cost of individuality. Funny thing with trends is that while their purpose is to make you stand out from the rest of the world they make you look like carbon copies of its followers. Heh 
Material things. They have their unique properties, must be handled in a certain way, symbols of stature or purely practical, owning or acquiring one comes with its price tag and the moral implications that they carry. They define us or at the very least shape the perceptions of those around us.
Friendships, relationships, marriage. They offer stability, people strive to follow their ideals, to form emotional attachments and satisfy their needs. As a downside they consume time, energy and focus, they cause inevitable pain.
Religion I don't even need to get into and will silence the first who mentions it 
Where am I getting at with all these? You should have a good guess by now. They compel us to use them and we comply. We accept their strengths as well as their weaknesses. Because we do not want to feel alone, because we feel we are not enough, because we need something to remind us of our accomplishments, something to prove that we are not as weak as we know we are. Without any of those of course the situation would change dramatically, can you imagine what would happen if you had no inhibitions, no obligations and only followed your personal goals? Could be great as well as terrible. Actually we could hardly be called 'humans'. A theme that was suggested in crime and punishment where the young student Raskolnikov believes that 'great' men are above the rest and don't have to face their restrictions, not even murder. Nietzsche has said a few things on the matter I believe.
Which brings along the next string of thought. That it's actually in our nature to 'imprison' ourselves and not necessarily a sigh of weakness. After all they do convey power and can reinforce you, depends on their nature and how you let them affect you. Takes strength to accept a weakness and you accept your weakness by seeking strength. Actions and consequences, cost and benefit. Many of those represent us, many we hide behind like a mask hoping to take its form and meaning, we are on a quest to find ourselves through them.
Closing I should mention an interesting part from Alan Moore's graphic novel the killing joke. It is mentioned that the more weight you place on order, sanity( ) and other humane values the easier for them to snap. We've all seen that happen throughout history, maybe even know someone whose strong faith has been shattered and is but a shell of his former self. "All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy." A pretty bleak statement but I'm afraid there is some truth in it. Maybe in the end the ideas we served will condemn us? Who knows?
That came out a bit more lengthy than planned. Guess that happens when you do not care to reach a specific conclusion and only record passing thoughts. In the end everything is up to personal interpretation.
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winterfate
Supreme Hero
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posted April 24, 2010 05:10 AM |
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+QP please!!
Oh wait...you don't get QPs...
I agree with what you said, especially the part about friendships and what-not. Dagoth mentioned something a while back when we chatted in MSN...something about the hedgehog syndrome. Perhaps he could re-explain it for this thread.
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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Binabik
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posted April 24, 2010 05:52 AM |
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I should have something significant to say about this, but I'm too tired to think of anything coherent.
However, as all things in life it's a matter of balance. The balance in my own life has tilted too much toward "freedom". I've moved around a lot, and true to the saying "a rolling stone gathers no moss", I don't have much to keep and claim as mine, not even friends who have all come and gone over the years. At one point in the mid-80s I moved 12 times in two years, mostly long distance moves from state to state.
Moving gives you a sense of freedom. It gives you a chance for a new start, to break away from whatever patterns you've been in and are expected to stay in by others. All things new give a sense of excitement, whether it's moving, a new girlfriend, a new job, or a cool new hobby or interest. It keeps us young with the bright eyes of a child who sees things new for the first time.
But it's a double edge sword. There is real comfort in the familiar. It's like the difference between a house and a home. A house is just the place where you live, but a home is safe, it's warm, it's familiar, it's comforting. The same goes for friends and acquaintances, for the local store where you buy your food, for the maple tree outside your window.
It's all about balance. And it's up to each individual to find that balance, nobody can find it for them. It's not really about "freedom" vs "prison". A place, or lifestyle, is never a prison when it's by choice. It's only when we get stuck in a rut and can't find our way out of that it becomes a prison.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2010 06:59 AM |
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Beliefs are not prisons but frameworks. One cannot be standing on the ground without believing in its existence.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 24, 2010 08:02 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 08:06, 24 Apr 2010.
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You are standing on the ground whether you believe in its existence or not.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted April 24, 2010 09:47 AM |
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Elvin.
Read through this when you wake up and think for a moment.
How tired were?
How drunk were you?
Whose words were you writing?
And stop being so god damned gullible!
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 24, 2010 10:20 AM |
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You are standing on the ground whether you believe in its existence or not.
Yes, of course. I should've been more clear. One could disbelieve in the existence of the ground, and think of oneself as being "freer" that way.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 24, 2010 10:40 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 10:47, 24 Apr 2010.
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I thought I was more clear from the start, no sense in making silly analogies. For one an analogy on such a broad subject cannot prove anything and a failed one at that only messes up future discussion.
What I had more in mind is that the mind tends to anchor around some things and often enough that prevents it from wandering further. That does not necessarily happen but often that is the case and you don't even realize just because you are following certain thought patterns.
@Joonas
Depends, first you'd have to tell me what you make out of this post. It's possible that you confuse my tone with the way I actually think. And considering that said post doesn't carry a lot of emotion one could easily consider me a pessimist or cynic. Anyways many of those are easily disputed or confirmed according to what point of view you look at them. Relative truth and all that.
@binabik
You are pretty close to what I had in mind, you speak of that elusive balance I hinted at. Of course the term prison is loosely used, even if by choice they bind you in a way. I do not actually consider friends a prison but you get the idea, after all you could overlook something personal for their sake.
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ohforfsake
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posted April 24, 2010 10:52 AM |
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Vague thoughts
[Note, these are also just some vague thoughts, to a certain degree on the same topics as the author of the thread, but not necessarily in the same context the author uses.]
Defining freedom as the ability to get what you want, without the consequences you don't want.
I too find certain perspectives of freedom ironic. I find it ironic when man can only convince himself of beeing free through escape of the very same, freedom. How we'd prove to ourself we're truely free by using our freedom to sacrfice said freedom. In return, when we no longer are free, we'd know that we truely were free and long for this freedom of the past. For what? Just so we can sacrifice it again, to know we truely were free?
I think the above procedure may be the very same that makes us see almost everything of the past to be better than the present. The present we then see to be better than the future. I think it is because we see all the risks in the present and the future, but when we look back into our past we see all the opportunites, all the things we could have done. Never for one moment considering that we did not have all the answers back then, still assuming, through our current knowledge, that we could do better, not believing risks to even exist in the past, while having a hard time to grasp any of the opportunities of the future.
I think may be this exact process that we use when we decide to sacrifice our freedom and in return get the feeling of comfort of the past, creating a better place, that we can long for, trying to use it as an example to create a better future, but that idealistic past is what destroyes our attempt of making a future.
My thoughts on the matter of belief are they are never set in stone to some variables and to others they are. Did you just let time flow and nothing else, then the beliefs would be the same. Do you change in respect to arguments that'd convince you otherwise, your beliefs would change. To me, beliefs are no more than our conclusion of best possible action through observation and ability to think.
We use our beliefs to plan ahead, but the smart ones plan for opportunites of changed beliefs and therefore makes flexible plan. They know they might be convinced otherwise, that there're better alternatives out there and then they can quickly adapt to their change in belief. Therefore I'd not say beliefs are what limits us [our freedom], no I would say what limits us are unquestionable beliefs.
I think it is somewhat ironic when people fight for freedom, and then use this freedom to decide upon unquestionable beliefs, thereby limiting their own freedom.
Though to be truely free, one must be able to choose to use ones freedom to loose ones freedom, for the given moment in time of choice.
My thoughts on trends are likewise, if they are unquestionable, they do limit your freedom, also if you do it without a purpose you choose, they do limit your freedom.
However with that said, I see trends as the opportunities as well, especially fashion trends. To a certain degree it is a language by its own that does not need to spoken. Can you understand the messages of the clothes, then you can reflect your beliefs to a certain degree through that, avoiding to create a language between people who doesn't share the same virtues.
Though again, I see the difference of trends limit your freedom and actually increasing it, much like language, as something that depends on your choice and not the concept [trends] itself.
On the matter of material things, my thoughts have for a long time been in the context of truely freedom through independence. However if you remove all and still are able to preserve the observer that is you, would you want an existance without ability to communicate with the outside world and reflect upon this? Would you not want abilities such as thoughts, senses and memory?
Material things, such as a can opener, may give us the freedom to open cans much easier, but do we also throw away some freedom in that we're now dependent on the can opener? Not anymore than we're dependent on our fingers to write, our hands to hold and our arms to arm wrestle.
No, I think the only freedom limiting dependence, is the dependence of others "things" that would have the ability to be free, so only dependence to living things.
If you're dependent of your car to go to work, it is no different than if you were dependent on your legs, but very different if you are dependent on another person, because in that dependency, depending on wants, freedom would be limited.
All in all, my view on the subject is if it is a consciouss choice by the person in question, or if it is driven by the persons nature (which could be feelings, or whatever).
In principle though, feelings may not be much different from beliefs and can be easily confused, creating the exact situation the author describes.
Because, after all, aren't feelings just the result of our interpretation of the environment as defined by the way we're build (to a large degree, probably, the genes)? And is this not in principle defined again, through the outside environment, after all we could call it our experience. We experience and thereby adapt. The experience is stored and gets connected to feelings.
On certain events, we decide on certain actions we see as the best possible, in return, the next time similar events happens, we've stored the result of these actions and in return it creates feelings towards doing certain actions.
In principle, when one starts using those feelings, that contain all rational as well as irrational decisions and very biased upon result and not likelyness of a result, it can give rise to a belief system that's out of this world in absurdities, but would seem to be derived through what one'd conclude as the best possible action through previous observations.
I think what one should remember is to always question ones feelings, eventhough they're really a method of helping, the environment changes, heck your choosing goal/purpose changes, and in return so does the usefulness of certain actions.
One would think feelings would likewise change as your result changes, then again, if your environment didn't change much, but your goals did, you can become addicted to previous goals, thereby creating a limitation of ones free will.
I think the main point I try to rise is that, if you know your goals (I typical call them wants), then any action you decide upon attaining those goals, independent of the concept of the action, is in fact not limiting your freedom.
If you want to score a hot girl, you might follow trends you don't care for. Do you want to be with the girl you'll start a relationship and endure the pain, because to you, the pain does not really matter, what matters is that you're with the person you want to be, i.e. what you want.
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Religion I don't even need to get into and will silence the first who mentions it
Technically speaking, you were the first to mention the 'R'-word, which mean you, by your own statement, should silence yourself. 
Well that was my vague thoughts.
I also have a question:
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They [the concepts listed by the author] compel us to use them and we comply. We accept their strengths as well as their weaknesses. Because we do not want to feel alone, because we feel we are not enough, because we need something to remind us of our accomplishments, something to prove that we are not as weak as we know we are. Without any of those of course the situation would change dramatically, can you imagine what would happen if you had no inhibitions, no obligations and only followed your personal goals? Could be great as well as terrible. Actually we could hardly be called 'humans'.
Am I understanding right, that we could hardly be called humans, if our reasons for following certain concepts (as those you list) aren't due to emotional "randomness"?
If so, then I wonder why and what your defintion of humans then is?
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Living time backwards
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Elvin
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posted April 25, 2010 10:19 PM |
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Maybe it would be more correct to say independence than freedom. The reasons for making those choices are up to morality and self-interest and as such a personal issue, does it even matter? The point is the way they affect us.
As long as beliefs are flexible and do not pointlessly cling to the past when the status quo and values used to differ, it's less likely to end up in a stagnant state of mind.
I have absolutely no idea what you mean by..
[However if you remove all and still are able to preserve the observer that is you, would you want an existance without ability to communicate with the outside world and reflect upon this? Would you not want abilities such as thoughts, senses and memory?]
What this is I don't even 
Practical material things don't really have a place in this discussion, what I had in mind are objects that are tied to a certain stature and reflect a certain lifestyle. What their transaction requires, what you will sacrifice to get them, what it will take to maintain can possibly affect the way you live and think. A simple example would be that the more complacent you are the more probable you'd shut out what is happening to the rest of the world.
About the concept of not humans I just refer to ones that have no place for humanity in their heart. Cold, calculating, immoral types that could wipe out a whole nation without blinking an eye or feeling the slightest remorse.
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ohforfsake
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posted April 26, 2010 01:13 AM |
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Well, kind of cool you changed it from freedom to independence and then asked about what I meant with the following quote, because that quote is exactly about independence:
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However if you remove all and still are able to preserve the observer that is you, would you want an existance without ability to communicate with the outside world and reflect upon this? Would you not want abilities such as thoughts, senses and memory?
It just means, that we'll always be dependent of some physical thing to get what we want (i.e. be free).
So I question, does it matter if this dependency is your arm or a robotic arm? I say, no it doesn't. My reason is because neither have any free will, so there's no one who gets oppressed.
Through that, I attempted to conclude that dependency, as long as it is choosing, is no problem, as long as it is not dependency of other people (like needing others to feed you, etc., much better if one can feed oneself).
If you rather was interested in the precise meaning, by my perspective, of the terms I used, and not the actual context, then I can also try to explain that.
Though from what you write (below), I understand the whole conclusion and arguments behind was not of must interest to the topic, which I of course say sorry for.
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Practical material things don't really have a place in this discussion
Anyway, in that case I don't think I've much to add to the discussion, but I'd like to note that I think it's dual-sided.
Under the impression you observe people in general, and you judge from what you sense (see, hear, smell, etc.) and through the logic you pocess, and that you don't do it for a period of time where you can say, that you really know these people, i.e. you only observe their actions, but don't ask them about it.
Then I think it's non-seperateable if the person acts a certain way because of a lifestyle determined through materialistic goods, or if said person have choosen to wear these materialistic good, because this person decided that the given lifestyle suited them well.
It's the difference of reasoning behind decisions. If it's through some kind of limitation (like group pressure, the group makes you follow a certain trend), or if it's through self reflection (that you say to yourself "this is how I want to be 'look' like when others see me), and therefore you choose the materialistic things and the lifestyle that is assumed to follow and not vice-versa.
Though, without being able to ask questions, and maybe even being able to do so, it might be impossible for anyone, except the person themselves, to know why they've made the given decision, at least without looking into the brain.
So when you write the following:
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The reasons for making those choices are up to morality and self-interest and as such a personal issue, does it even matter? The point is the way they affect us.
I'll say yes, it probably matters a lot what the reasons are, because that's what seperates if the material things have affected them into a certain lifestyle or their choosen lifestyle have made them decide to go for certain material things.
[PS: I can't remember the first post of the thread anymore, so if this is off topic now, please say, and I'll edit the post, so it fits better.]
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Fauch
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posted April 26, 2010 01:17 AM |
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Edited by Fauch at 01:24, 26 Apr 2010.
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I had been thinking about it for a while, and I quite agree.
that sounds somewhat like the buddhist view, and there are also many philosophers working on the subject, but I guess it doesn't have a big impact on the mass.
but I don't think we choose to limit our liberty, more exactly, we may think we choose, but it's more a conditionned, mechanical choice, like when a machine chooses between 2 options.
there is actually quite a lot of things limiting our liberty.
-frontiers, when it comes to liberty of movement. they should be abolished
-nations should be abolished. as long as the world will be divided and ruled the way it is, there will probably be no egality. basically it would greatly reduce the influence of political people, like, what power, someone in moscow, would have on someone living in(ex)far-east russia?
-they say consuming is the way to be happy. that is, until you get bored of your new toy and want a bigger one.
-work (with the goal of producing) is one of the most stupidest thing.
people want a work, because they are told they are useless if they don't work. they are also told they won't know what to do of their life.
they are happy when they find one, whereas it means they'll just be enslaved by some rich guy.
they think producing is useful, and the most we produce, the more people will benefit, but it's the contrary, because by producing, building factories and cities, we destroy the nature, thus the resources needed to live.
-laws. people think they are made to protect them. they think it is normal to limit their freedom for their security, but actually it benefits more to the people who have the power, because it makes us more predictable and easier to control.
moreover, laws, contracts, rules, etc... are useless. because nothing prevents you from ignoring them. and if you don't get caught, you risk nothing.
I could also add, most people don't know them, but we still think they are important. that is stupid.
-trends aren't a big deal I guess. that's the sheep effect. however, as stated above, it is a great way to control us and make sure we are predictable.
-general beliefs. they are probably the most dangerous for our liberty. because everyone know them, almost everyone agree with them, and almost no one would question them. but buddhism for example, could prove you that the most elementary things you thought as true, may actually be totally false.
something that is especially hard to understand, is why people are almost always wearing masks, they are never really themselves. of course, when your views go against the general beliefs, you may want to be cautious, but most people think similarly I guess, and yet, they are afraid of opening themselves. it's surprising how people can be (or look) warm and welcoming, and as soon as the discussion become more personnal, they become very cold and distant, as if your only goal was to find their flaws and weaknesses.
unlike elvin, I think inhuman shouldn't only apply to bad people.
actually, it could apply to most people maybe, in the sense of "zombi" or "machine" or even "dead". people who live without taking any decisions of their own, never doing what they want to do, just what they are expected to do, and even worse, who don't even realize it, like machines and zombis.
the other people are the ones the power tries to constraint. those that are against the order. of course it includes criminals, but also people like Nelson Mandela. people who can think or are not predictable are dangerous. in another hand, it doesn't apply to people like Hitler, who was free to do what he wanted, and Hitler was definitely on the side of order.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted April 26, 2010 01:49 AM |
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@ Elvin
I disagree that beliefs are a prison of the mind. At least my beliefs are not a prison. Certainly I can understand how some beliefs could imprison one.
It is true that some people can't handle freedom but certainly I disagree that everyone or even most people try to escape freedom. With true freedom comes taking responsibility for one's actions and holding oneself accountable for said actions. Self imposed limitations for a purpose is not necessarily self-imprisonment. Self-discipline is a good thing that actually is empowering and liberating.
Moreover, everyone has beliefs. "Belief" does not just refer to religion or philosophy. Everyone has experiences in life and has drawn conclusions from their experiences. Some of those conclusions are right, some wrong. I would say that anyone who claims he is not following any ideology is self-deceived. Ideologies are not only what you have been formally taught. I think many people who think of themselfs as intellectual elites follow an ideology of their own making, while thinking they follow no ideology, and have blinders on to much truth that lays outside their constructed ideology/world-view. You could say that they are slaves to thier own ideas and can see outside the box they made for themselves.
I also disagree that everyone clings to things or allow things to define who they are. Certainly there is a tendency to cling to things, but one can overcome such tendencies. Also, I disagree that sacrificing part of our freedom weakens us. A parent sacrifices part of his freedom when he has children yet I have found as a parent that having children has strengthened me in various ways. In every relatinoship one does "sacrifice part of his freedom" in that in order to maintain a relatinship you can't treat people just any old way and expect to maintain the relatinoship. Yet good relationships make us strong, not weak.
A soldier who sacrifices himself for the squad is strong, not weak. He values more than just what is best for him personally. Self-sacrifice rather than selfishness.
My ideologies certainly are not a prison to me. I enjoy living my life the way I live it. I have freedom. I know many others who feel the same way who follow ideologies similar to my own.
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Religion I don't even need to get into and will silence the first who mentions it
Oh, your reference was the first in the thread so I assume you will be silencing yourself.
I am also curious how you think it is fair to take a pot shot at the "forbidden topic" and then say if anyone else mentions what you brought up that you will silence them.
If a moderator is going to be a participant in a discussion hw should not use the power of the moderator gavel to "protect" his ideas. Let your points stand or fall without the support of your gavel.
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Azagal
Honorable
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Smooth Snake
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posted April 26, 2010 01:51 AM |
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Peace brother.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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ohforfsake
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posted April 26, 2010 02:11 AM |
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@Elodin
When you use the term freedom, how is it defined and how is it related to taking responsibility for ones own actions?
When I use said terms, I'd call, that taking responsibility for ones own action, maturity, though maybe it's because I'm tired.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2010 03:49 AM |
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With true freedom comes taking responsibility for one's actions and holding oneself accountable for said actions.
yes. but is it the reason for laws, that it is hard to take responsibility, or are laws a way to release us from taking responsibility, thus to prevent us from thinking too much?
Like when some dictators such as Hitler say they take all the responsibility for all the actions of the people under their command. that way, they can convince them to do anything (well, it's not that simple, but it seems it works)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 26, 2010 11:54 PM |
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@Ohforf
I said they do not matter because you can't tell what each and every one of us thinks, you'd have to get very specific and the possibilities are endless.
@Fauch
Funny you should mention that, if memory serves it was from Osho an Indian(as in from India) philosopher that I first read that viewpoint. And yes it's not so much actual freedom limitation, more like thinking and acting within a mold. Like in martial arts a fighter specialized in a combat style may have weak spots against another style, possibly not expect some moves and will be using a specific repertoire of moves himself. That may be a benefit in some cases, a liability in others. He is free to make his own choices and effectively so but will have fewer options.
I don't see nations being abolished anytime soon They have their limits sure but erasing geographical limits will not also erase racial relations, prejudice and national pride. People do not forget who they are and never should. It is part of your identity, promotes cultural diversity and a sense of responsibility. It would be terrible to lose it.
You may want to watch fight club on the issue of consumerism. Product consumption is considered as a sign of prosperity and companies keep inventing new needs for us - in products or technology. If you become too dependent on them you could enter a vicious circle and lead an unsatisfying life.
Work a stupid thing? More like not fighting to ensure better work conditions, otherwise what exactly are you going to do with your life? If you don't do anything you are dead weight, another lazy bum. If you want to live you'll have to earn a living somehow.
Laws You wouldn't want to live in a lawless country.
@Elodin
Your own beliefs must be very special then, but I bet everyone would say that  I think you missed the point, perhaps the martial arts comparison above clarifies my post a bit. Likewise I did not claim that having a family is inherently a sign of strength of weakness, that would be foolish of me.
As for my request to avoid religion on this discussion it is but a personal wish as the author of the thread. Religion has been discussed extensively in various other topics so a small break won't hurt. Besides just about everyone here can guess that it's not for my protection.
@Ohforf
How do you define definitions? Seriously man what's wrong with you
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ohforfsake
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posted April 27, 2010 12:23 AM |
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I said they do not matter because you can't tell what each and every one of us thinks, you'd have to get very specific and the possibilities are endless.
Well in that aspect, yes I agree, but you see, I wrote the same.
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Then I think it's non-seperateable if the person acts a certain way because of a lifestyle determined through materialistic goods, or if said person have choosen to wear these materialistic good, because this person decided that the given lifestyle suited them well.
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How do you define definitions? Seriously man what's wrong with you
I asked, because I don't understand how the term freedom relates to taking responsibility for ones own actions.
About identity, I get the understanding from your post, that peoples identity is partly formed through where they're born, how they look, and in general what kind of group they belong to. I get it from this quote:
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They [nations] have their limits sure but erasing geographical limits will not also erase racial relations, prejudice and national pride. People do not forget who they are and never should. It is part of your identity, promotes cultural diversity and a sense of responsibility. It would be terrible to lose it.
I however think that you express peoples identity in the views of everyone else than the person him/herself. In ones own perspective, it's not what groups others put you in that defines you, because there can never be any doubt that, to yourself, are yourself. It means the idea of lack of identity, can in reality only happen in the context of some outside observer looking at other people, and not able to distinguish them.
So I agree that, if I observe you, a part of your identity in my observation is that you're greek, so I've grouped you among greeks and what generally follows [you sexy man ], and if we removed the country greece, and the possibility to seperate you from people of other groups known as countries, due to lack of countries, then sure a part of your identity, from my view, have dissapeared.
I think that's also what people are talking about when they say it's a shame with cultural differences dissapearing, etc.
However, my point is that to you, you're always yourself, whatever you decide to do, you do not do because you're greek, unless you decide to let this influence you. If you find it rational, I bet you'll consider it in a rational way, reflecting over it, and I bet the same arguments will work, no matter if you're greek or if Greece does not exist.
Another example, a person who all life have lived as a kind of 'copy cat' adapting to situations through copying the ways of others, will in the view of others not have much of an identity through actions, because those actions 'belongs' to someone else. In reality, this person, from ones own perspective, have their own unique identity, that's, themselves, formed through their decisions, what they find rational.
So I see the idea of loss of identity as a non valid excuse and no 'real' reason for keeping the concept of countries.
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Living time backwards
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 27, 2010 12:49 AM |
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I don't see nations being abolished anytime soon They have their limits sure but erasing geographical limits will not also erase racial relations, prejudice and national pride. People do not forget who they are and never should. It is part of your identity, promotes cultural diversity and a sense of responsibility. It would be terrible to lose it.
yeah, sure, it wouldn't erase racial problems. but the nationality doesn't mean much to me. most of the time it only means you are born in that country, and as far as I know, you don't choose where you are born.
I don't see what frontiers have to do with cultural diversity, the true danger here would be globalization
same for responsibility, even if frontier were abolished, you would still have to live in communities, which implies responsibility.
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Work a stupid thing? More like not fighting to ensure better work conditions, otherwise what exactly are you going to do with your life? If you don't do anything you are dead weight, another lazy bum. If you want to live you'll have to earn a living somehow.
I said working to produce, and whatever is linked with consumerism or capitalism maybe. I didn't mean we should do nothing of course.
and how should I earn my live? I'm born, so I have the right to live. why should I pay for it?
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Laws You wouldn't want to live in a lawless country.
how do you know? ever been in one?
if all laws were abolished tommorow, I bet it wouldn't change much things actually.
but in the long run, it might lead to chaos, or to people being more responsible.
seriously, I hope people are intelligent enough to foresee the consequences of their acts.
nowadays, there is not much responsibility involved. the only thing that matters, is it punished by law?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 27, 2010 12:56 AM |
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Ethnicity is not a matter of outside observation, it IS part of who you are if you are born an X nation citizen. It's one of those things that are tied to your heart and mentality and I'm not a nationalist mind you. Likewise what team you are
Ofc others have grown up as citizens of the world(see Azagal) or chosen to cut ties with their country for one reason or another.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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